Lopsided City?

[Davefevs]

Regardless of what we think about our final ball (of late at least), I think it’s fair to say we create more down our left than our right.

Saw this earlier (in fact I check it quite regularly), but it has evolved over recent weeks.

The model does show the passing teams like Burnley and Saturday’s opponents Swansea in a better light (more blue than red), but we are the only side with such an imbalance!!!

[ExiledAjax]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Regardless of what we think about our final ball (of late at least), I think it’s fair to say we create more down our left than our right.

Saw this earlier (in fact I check it quite regularly), but it has evolved over recent weeks.

The model does show the passing teams like Burnley and Saturday’s opponents Swansea in a better light (more blue than red), but we are the only side with such an imbalance!!!

Are Luton just not turning up!?

[RiverRed]

From this info I have deduced that Huddersfield are the best at Tetris.

[Port Said Red]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Regardless of what we think about our final ball (of late at least), I think it’s fair to say we create more down our left than our right.

Saw this earlier (in fact I check it quite regularly), but it has evolved over recent weeks.

The model does show the passing teams like Burnley and Saturday’s opponents Swansea in a better light (more blue than red), but we are the only side with such an imbalance!!!

I think if you delved deeper into those figures, you would find that Atkinson is heavily involved in a lot of those moves. He breaks much further into the opposition half than Zak does on the right.

[Clevedon Red]

Swansea look to be quite dominant and pressing. 

[spudski]

I also check these stats after each game Dave, and our possession stats often show we are trying to attack from the left side.

Are we ' creating' more down the left, or just controlling the ball better than the opposition down the left? I'd say the latter...we often use Atkinson and DaSilva and our midfield on the left side...' knocking it about'...but it often leads to aimless crosses or recycled.

What stands out for me in that graph, is the area that we are weaker in our own half. Both sides where our wing backs are. We don't control those areas. We are weaker. The opposition see that as our weakness and aim into those areas. Granted we aren't Rotherham or Luton.... however...

[Rocking Red Cyril]

So do we need to stop playing with wing backs ?

Or sign better wing backs ?

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Are Luton just not turning up!?

They just play quickly, don’t worry about possession per se!

55 minutes ago, Clevedon Red said:

Swansea look to be quite dominant and pressing. 

Bearing in mind they have 60% possession it is likely that they will have more touches in a “square” rather than their opponents, rather than it being a measure of their pressing.  They are mid-table pressing (like us).

51 minutes ago, spudski said:

I also check these stats after each game Dave, and our possession stats often show we are trying to attack from the left side.

Are we ' creating' more down the left, or just controlling the ball better than the opposition down the left? I'd say the latter...we often use Atkinson and DaSilva and our midfield on the left side...' knocking it about'...but it often leads to aimless crosses or recycled.

What stands out for me in that graph, is the area that we are weaker in our own half. Both sides where our wing backs are. We don't control those areas. We are weaker. The opposition see that as our weakness and aim into those areas. Granted we aren't Rotherham or Luton.... however...

We create more from the left too.  But I agree with what you say.  Now we are seeing teams sitting in against us, I’d really like to see us control possession and work our opponents, creating better opportunities and at the right time.  Composure!!!!

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

They just play quickly, don’t worry about possession per se!

Bearing in mind they have 60% possession it is likely that they will have more touches in a “square” rather than their opponents, rather than it being a measure of their pressing.  They are mid-table pressing (like us).

We create more from the left too.  But I agree with what you say.  Now we are seeing teams sitting in against us, I’d really like to see us control possession and work our opponents, creating better opportunities and at the right time.  Composure!!!!

I too think we should be controlling our opponents more. Especially in the middle. We seem so intent on getting the ball out wide and ' crossing'. 

The quality of the ball into the box is often just a ' punt'...if it's actually aimed, then it just goes to show how poor the quality is. Imo...just punted into an area. Very rarely is a man picked out...it's happened...but rare as hen's teeth.

I see our strengths more in the middle. Draw players out...break lines...get in behind. Weimann, Wells, Semenyo all have that ability to do so. Scott, Atkinson and Naismith all have an eye for a threaded ball in behind or to feet to play the angles off. 

At the moment...we work the ball wide, punt it in, and invariably lose possession and have to start again. 

Imo...it's poor tactics.

[grifty]

53 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

So do we need to stop playing with wing backs ?

Or sign better wing backs ?

Both, you know we'll sign an amazing wing back and then magically change our formation to 4 at the back.

On a more serious note, we have Jay on the left who is very tidy on the ball, quite good defending one-on-one I think, but 5'2" and can't cross for toffee and Pring, who is athletic, powerful, determined but is very naive IMO on the ball.

On the right, Sykes who is being played out of position and I think defensively is quite good, aggressive, good engine, but another whose final ball is poor which is worrying if he's supposed to be more of an attack minded midfielder, Tanner who to me seems more of an old school full back than a wing back or RCB and Wilson who I'm guessing has had some fitness/getting used to training and match speed issues.

In an ideal world, we'd have Pring and Wilson for what attributes I think they could bring and once Wilson is fit again, would love to see this. They directness and ability in the final third of both could cover for what they make lack in defensive attributes.

Edited October 27, 2022 by grifty

[Port Said Red]

I don't think it's any coincidence that the performances we have been least effective in, are in games where the teams set up to negate the 3 at the back formation which would normally allow us to have a player "free" at the back. The best example was QPR, not only playing 3 players advanced, but also two very wide to exploit the space behind our wing backs. Neither Atkinson or Vyner were able to move into the opposition half in the same way they had before.

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, spudski said:

I too think we should be controlling our opponents more. Especially in the middle. We seem so intent on getting the ball out wide and ' crossing'. 

The quality of the ball into the box is often just a ' punt'...if it's actually aimed, then it just goes to show how poor the quality is. Imo...just punted into an area. Very rarely is a man picked out...it's happened...but rare as hen's teeth.

I see our strengths more in the middle. Draw players out...break lines...get in behind. Weimann, Wells, Semenyo all have that ability to do so. Scott, Atkinson and Naismith all have an eye for a threaded ball in behind or to feet to play the angles off. 

At the moment...we work the ball wide, punt it in, and invariably lose possession and have to start again. 

Imo...it's poor tactics.

I said on another thread that because we don’t control possession / territory, nor show patience, we don’t get our midfielders into scoring areas, either making late runs or into shooting positions.  Hence our midfielder goal output is woeful…but understandable.  Weimann in the WSM is of course the exception, but that means we just have 3 goalscorer, and the only other option is from a set piece (Atkinson).

Trying the killer ball so early in the phase is a bit lazy!

[spudski]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I said on another thread that because we don’t control possession / territory, nor show patience, we don’t get our midfielders into scoring areas, either making late runs or into shooting positions.  Hence our midfielder goal output is woeful…but understandable.  Weimann in the WSM is of course the exception, but that means we just have 3 goalscorer, and the only other option is from a set piece (Atkinson).

Trying the killer ball so early in the phase is a bit lazy!

That's my interpretation and thoughts too Dave. 

With the players we have, imo, we are wasting a lot of their ability. 

If we want to use 'wing backs'...then why not use them to draw players out wide, create space in the middle, and use that space...instead of like you say...trying the killer ball into a zone for players to run into in the box.

It's an awful tactic.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

That's my interpretation and thoughts too Dave. 

With the players we have, imo, we are wasting a lot of their ability. 

If we want to use 'wing backs'...then why not use them to draw players out wide, create space in the middle, and use that space...instead of like you say...trying the killer ball into a zone for players to run into in the box.

It's an awful tactic.

Boom  

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

So do we need to stop playing with wing backs ?

Or sign better wing backs ?

 

Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer a more trad winger. A goal threat in themselves, rather than just a 'provider'.

[Sir Geoff]

Not sure 'create' was the correct word to use, Dave. Maybe precede it with attempt to create or smash it into the first man more often down the left than the right.

[Sleepy1968]

7 hours ago, spudski said:

That's my interpretation and thoughts too Dave. 

With the players we have, imo, we are wasting a lot of their ability. 

If we want to use 'wing backs'...then why not use them to draw players out wide, create space in the middle, and use that space...instead of like you say...trying the killer ball into a zone for players to run into in the box.

It's an awful tactic.

Add in the zonal 'marking' fiasco and I'm begining to think we have tactically inept coaches. Is it that simple, or are the players partly culpable and just taking the tried and trusted/no chance of scoring way out all the time?

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Sleepy1968 said:

Add in the zonal 'marking' fiasco and I'm begining to think we have tactically inept coaches. Is it that simple, or are the players partly culpable and just taking the tried and trusted/no chance of scoring way out all the time?

I think it's a situation thing.

Trying to fit players into a system. 

A case of some aren't good enough.

Some fit, others aren't. Players not consistent. 

It's a better the devil you know and sum of all parts scenario.

Imo....we are probably worse away from zonal marking, going by what NP has alluded to. And maybe not good enough in other systems. 

In recent weeks, NP mentioned that maybe certain players simply aren't good enough. 

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

I think it's a situation thing.

Trying to fit players into a system. 

A case of some aren't good enough.

Some fit, others aren't. Players not consistent. 

It's a better the devil you know and sum of all parts scenario.

Imo....we are probably worse away from zonal marking, going by what NP has alluded to. And maybe not good enough in other systems. 

In recent weeks, NP mentioned that maybe certain players simply aren't good enough. 

As we rebuild / evolve it’s one big compromise really….because we can’t buy our way out of it.

[spudski]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As we rebuild / evolve it’s one big compromise really….because we can’t buy our way out of it.

I agree...and when you take in injuries, inconsistencies, lack of form, mistakes...it all adds up.

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, spudski said:

I agree...and when you take in injuries, inconsistencies, lack of form, mistakes...it all adds up.

Just listening to the FF, I find it refreshing to hear Nige say he won’t waste money.  My thoughts are always, can we bring in a player / enough players to make that big a difference needed to really move us forward (versus the cost).  The answer is probably no.

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just listening to the FF, I find it refreshing to hear Nige say he won’t waste money.  My thoughts are always, can we bring in a player / enough players to make that big a difference needed to really move us forward (versus the cost).  The answer is probably no.

I also caught some of the FF. Refreshing to see them in a more relaxed mode. They all came across well. And say it like it is. For now...moving forward can be seen as keeping competitive in this league for the time being. A transition in players mindset re contracts/ value still sinking in.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

A transition in players mindset re contracts/ value still sinking in.

Might be a couple of players now getting a bit anxious if they’ve not actually been offered anything…keeping them on their toes.

[spudski]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Might be a couple of players now getting a bit anxious if they’ve not actually been offered anything…keeping them on their toes.

Playing for a contract.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

Playing for a contract.

If you had someone on £20k p.w, who you wouldn’t want to pay more than £15k p.w for their next contract, and initial talks didn’t conclude a deal…you can see why Nige is now waiting to see what happens.  By January he will start to get a feel for other options and their contract situation…and maybe look elsewhere instead.  There’s probably a point in time where balance starts to shift.

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If you had someone on £20k p.w, who you wouldn’t want to pay more than £15k p.w for their next contract, and initial talks didn’t conclude a deal…you can see why Nige is now waiting to see what happens.  By January he will start to get a feel for other options and their contract situation…and maybe look elsewhere instead.  There’s probably a point in time where balance starts to shift.

I agree. Unless a team comes in with parachute money, it's a scenario where players will have to adjust. I guess agents will be hanging on for as long as they can.

On another note...I notice NP confirmed what I thought. That we are playing a system that allows us to play our best players. Not ideal...so I guess we'll have to accept leaking goals and being inconsistent in the wing back areas 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

I agree. Unless a team comes in with parachute money, it's a scenario where players will have to adjust. I guess agents will be hanging on for as long as they can.

On another note...I notice NP confirmed what I thought. That we are playing a system that allows us to play our best players. Not ideal...so I guess we'll have to accept leaking goals and being inconsistent in the wing back areas 

From the FF thread, that was around the time my feed stopped.  Hope they put a recording up.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Davefevs

[1960maaan]

 

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

If you had someone on £20k p.w, who you wouldn’t want to pay more than £15k p.w for their next contract, and initial talks didn’t conclude a deal…you can see why Nige is now waiting to see what happens.  By January he will start to get a feel for other options and their contract situation…and maybe look elsewhere instead.  There’s probably a point in time where balance starts to shift.

Interesting that Gould said we pay top 10 wages in the Championship, which puts us in a good position. Mind you he also said those wages have dropped 30% ish recently, so I guess everything is in a state of flux. It will be down to who blinks first on many contracts. 
Nice to hear we have plans in place for the summer, and that those plans could be brought forward.

It may turn out not to be a problem with many players out of contract in the summer. With the right juggling it may turn out to be a good aid to rebuild.

[Clutton Caveman]

On 27/10/2022 at 09:59, Rocking Red Cyril said:

So do we need to stop playing with wing backs ?

Or sign better wing backs ?

Teach them how to beat their man when 1 on 1 and actually cross to someone.

It drives me crazy when DaSilva finds himself 1 on 1 and still passes inside. If he can't beat a man and cross why is he in the side? 

[Always Believesham]

Interesting stuff, and I remember one from earlier in the year where Burnley were as dominant, I couldn't remember others standing out though.

There is something absurd going on at Middlesbrough, Hull and Sheffield United - I am going to assume this is skewed by the fact they've had a couple of games where the opposition have kept the ball in the corner, combined with there being no activity in that speicific area of the pitch.

With the exception of those, it kind of looks like a game of risk on a football pitch - for me it suggests teams try and attack that side of the pitch but have proved to be strong enough to deal with it. I would back Atkinson, Dasilva and any one of the strikers running the channels to get the better of championship opponents. What they have done with the ball (as with anyone in the team) is becoming more inconsistent, it's perhaps more exagerrated in my memory because of how much we get the ball down the left.