“It’s not his fault, it’s what he inherited”

[Bar BS3]

3 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

Mate honestly no point trying to debate with people. 
I totally agree, I mean we are 20th in the championship. Relegation is literally just as probable as staying up currently 

Did you read the threads & posts from Saturday...? 

I'm the devil incarnate for even daring to question NP...!

Not based on tonight, but the last 20 months of this. 

I'm the "idiotic clown" who is "the most hated poster on OTIB" though...! 

[Tomo]

Let's be clear, 

Would Nigel Pearson realistically want to sign Klose (too old), Wilson (league 2 player), Sykes (league 1 player), 3 examples of players he has purchased....

Atkinson, again came from a lower league, not ideal, but what we could afford, same as Tanner.

James clearly knows Pearson from the past, so Nige trusts him. King is a dressing room influence, and signed on the back of the Leicester days and Pearson was probably trying to lean on some old experience to get some leadership in the squad.  

Pearson has brought in players on the budget we have and trying hard to improve the side, but most are either older players or a level below. Massive changes in the Summer. I can't see a change of manager helping our current situation. Just my opinion.  

Edited November 9, 2022 by Tomo

[Bs4Red]

Just now, marcofisher said:

NP OUTer, who realistically would you bring in who fits the remit of cutting wage bill and bringing through the academy players? I am curious as I’m seeing a lot of debate but not really seen any credible names

Pearson hasn’t brought through academy players, he’s had no choice and a bit of luck that a couple were decent.

The same as when LJ got a stroke of luck that Bobby was a striker, people wouldn’t credit him with a masterstroke.

Michael Duff, he’s done a great job at Cheltenham with no money and is now doing well this season with Barnsley, would cost much to prize him away from there. 

Chris Wilder, proven in the championship. Free agent. Sheff U probably best team I’ve seen in championship under him with the overlapping CBs

Lee Bowyer, did a fantastic job at Birmingham under much much worse conditions than we have at AG currently. 
 

I don’t know who'd I’d want but there are candidates out there. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

12 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Cannot wait to see your face when he gets. a new contract. Please send a selfie as you implode. 

I like this comment so much- I've made a note of it!

[Bs4Red]

5 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Did you read the threads & posts from Saturday...? 

I'm the devil incarnate for even daring to question NP...!

Not based on tonight, but the last 20 months of this. 

I'm the "idiotic clown" who is "the most hated poster on OTIB" though...! 

Entitled to your opinion and to express it how you want. 
Pay the same money as every happy clapper, moaner, superfan out there, if you want to boo. You want NP, don’t want NP. 
As long as you’re behind the boys during the game. The rest is your opinion and your entitled too it. 

[man in the middle]

Bring in Joey Barton 

[Red_Alligator]

1 minute ago, man in the middle said:

Bring in Joey Barton 

Why? What has he done now?!

[Spike]

51 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

One of, if not the worst justification for a manager who has done absolutely nothing since being here. 
 

We are somehow arguably worse at defending set pieces than we have ever been. 
 

Scarily inconsistent from the sublime to the absolute disgusting rubbish. 
 

This squad has potential to do ok, it’s frontline is full of goals, there is unbelievable talent (Scott) alongside experience footballers. 
 

Defenders who let’s not forget NP signed and yet we are languishing dangerous around relegation. 
 

Weeks and weeks of rubbish followed by a couple of wins to paper over the cracks. I said last season he has to go, shocked to see so many sticking up for this utter dross. 

I mean I'll bite I guess.

We are no worse at defending set pieces, we're just as bad as when he got here, it's just we don't remember how many goals we were shipping on them before he came here because it's been a while. Yes we should be better, but when do you remember us fielding the same back 3 for 5 games in a row? We're plagued with injuries again, something that was a major cause for concern long before Pearson was here and I still feel there needs to be some kind of review in what is causing it.

At the moment we're missing Atkinson, Naismith, Wilson, Benarous, Kalas (still touch and go) and we're missing Tanner due to suspension. That's arguably our best three center backs out, our only natural right back who is yet to play and yet people are kicking off when he starts Low in a cup match that if we went through would only add yet another fixture to an already battered squad. As it stands we're missing 4 center backs and people are moaning about results and not being able to defend, when have we had a run of games where injuries haven't interrupted it and as I said before this is an issue we had long before Pearson was here.

You also say weeks and weeks of rubbish when we arguably walked all over Sheffield United, who went on to trounce Burnley the following game. Yes we lost, yes it was frustrating, but we proved that even with a ravaged squad we could put in a solid performance, Swansea was a frustrating one too but again we could have walked away with all 3 points. We're most definitely on a frustrating run of crap form but we've also had solid performances which is more than can be said for some of the teams below us who have far less team changing injuries. 

I'm a very negative minded person in general but looking at our games ahead I can see points coming, I'm more concerned about the last games of this season, Sheffield United away, Burnley at home and QPR away. I guess I may fall on the side of sack him if the results don't change as players come back but to sack a manager when he's missing 4 centre backs and plays 3 every game would be very harsh.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

Pearson hasn’t brought through academy players, he’s had no choice and a bit of luck that a couple were decent.

The same as when LJ got a stroke of luck that Bobby was a striker, people wouldn’t credit him with a masterstroke.

Michael Duff, he’s done a great job at Cheltenham with no money and is now doing well this season with Barnsley, would cost much to prize him away from there. 

Chris Wilder, proven in the championship. Free agent. Sheff U probably best team I’ve seen in championship under him with the overlapping CBs

Lee Bowyer, did a fantastic job at Birmingham under much much worse conditions than we have at AG currently. 
 

I don’t know who'd I’d want but there are candidates out there. 

Wilder has, Middlesbrough aside, had a great career to date but he would be handed a hospital pass here even if we ignore this season at Middlesbrough and write it off as one of those things.

He also liked his PL loanees at Middlesbrough, not a luxury that we can afford.

Are you sure about Bowyer about Birmingham?? Wage bill doesn't lie, and they unlike us had sufficient headroom to sign PL loanees, players such as Bacuna from Rangers.

Duff sounds interesting but too soon, it's a really tough gig- NP could steer us through the storm, Duff I think not.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Tomo]

3 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

Pearson hasn’t brought through academy players, he’s had no choice and a bit of luck that a couple were decent.

The same as when LJ got a stroke of luck that Bobby was a striker, people wouldn’t credit him with a masterstroke.

Michael Duff, he’s done a great job at Cheltenham with no money and is now doing well this season with Barnsley, would cost much to prize him away from there. 

Chris Wilder, proven in the championship. Free agent. Sheff U probably best team I’ve seen in championship under him with the overlapping CBs

Lee Bowyer, did a fantastic job at Birmingham under much much worse conditions than we have at AG currently. 
 

I don’t know who'd I’d want but there are candidates out there. 

Bowyer Stats - 216    81    53    82    37.5%
Duff Stats - 225    93    63    69    41.3%
Wilder - 979    426    233    320    43.5%
Pearson - 581    228    155    198    39.24%

Not a huge amount in that, but worth noting Bowyer, Duff and Wilder's total games are at a lower level compared to Mr Pearson   

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

In fairness, than was the scenario at the end of the last woeful season. 

Unlike many, I'm not reacting to tonight (losing 1-3 to a team that lost to Chippenham at the weekend) I'm basing my thoughts on the past 20 months. 

Remind me, where we're we when he took over & where are we now....? & where do you think we will be in another year's time...? 

Just a simple Q.  Do you think we’d bottomed out at the point of Holden’s sacking and everything from that point on should be “upward” (even if slowly upwards)?

Im interested.

My view is that we still had to bottom out, and that happened in the summer as we released several players.  Therefore I think it’s “unfair” to start the comparison at Feb 2021.

You may disagree.  But I’d like to know your thoughts.

4 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

Pearson hasn’t brought through academy players, he’s had no choice and a bit of luck that a couple were decent.

The same as when LJ got a stroke of luck that Bobby was a striker, people wouldn’t credit him with a masterstroke.

Michael Duff, he’s done a great job at Cheltenham with no money and is now doing well this season with Barnsley, would cost much to prize him away from there. 

Chris Wilder, proven in the championship. Free agent. Sheff U probably best team I’ve seen in championship under him with the overlapping CBs

Lee Bowyer, did a fantastic job at Birmingham under much much worse conditions than we have at AG currently. 
 

I don’t know who'd I’d want but there are candidates out there. 

For info, Wilder might be out of a job, but I bet Boro are still paying him, and his payoff would instantly make him completely out of our reach.

I like Duff, I’m a bit apathetic to Bowyer if I’m being honest.

[Bs4Red]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just a simple Q.  Do you think we’d bottomed out at the point of Holden’s sacking and everything from that point on should be “upward” (even if slowly upwards)?

Im interested.

My view is that we still had to bottom out, and that happened in the summer as we released several players.  Therefore I think it’s “unfair” to start the comparison at Feb 2021.

You may disagree.  But I’d like to know your thoughts.

For info, Wilder might be out of a job, but I bet Boro are still paying him, and his payoff would instantly make him completely out of our reach.

I like Duff, I’m a bit apathetic to Bowyer if I’m being honest.

Those were just a quick rattle off the top of my head, I just think they are out there if you look.

I can’t see SL pulling the trigger this season anyway. I just hope he does before we are in L1.

 

[Tomo]

The Change of Manager debate always cracks me up. The average manager, averages around a 40% win ratio. Any other manager would be in a top flight job, 

I'm afraid to say that any change of manager at Bristol City, will result in appointing a similar %age winning manager. I can't argue with NP's stats at Bristol City - they are poor, but look at what he is working with at the moment. If the board keep him or sack him, I will be right behind the 40 per-center at our club. 

Tomo 

[Fuber]

54 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

Obviously if you could lure somebody like Dyche, he’s the oracle of working with a shoestring budget and managing to be successful.

Don’t think he’s cost much more than NP is on but at the same time is out of our reach. 
 

Ducking what? You think we'd afford Dyche, let alone him entertain the thought of coming here?

Better question is whether we can afford to sack NP in the first place.

Sweet ****ing Lord. I didn't realise we were that deluded.

[Bs4Red]

4 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Ducking what? You think we'd afford Dyche, let alone him entertain the thought of coming here?

Better question is whether we can afford to sack NP in the first place.

Sweet ****ing Lord. I didn't realise we were that deluded.

Pretty sure if you read I clearly say he’s out of reach but I was likening someone of that ilk who has a track record of success on a shoestring budget

[Bs4Red]

15 minutes ago, Tomo said:

The Change of Manager debate always cracks me up. The average manager, averages around a 40% win ratio. Any other manager would be in a top flight job, 

I'm afraid to say that any change of manager at Bristol City, will result in appointing a similar %age winning manager. I can't argue with NP's stats at Bristol City - they are poor, but look at what he is working with at the moment. If the board keep him or sack him, I will be right behind the 40 per-center at our club. 

Tomo 

Let’s look at what he has to work with that he’s not getting enough out of tomo 

[Fuber]

Just now, Bs4Red said:

Pretty sure if you read I clearly say he’s out of reach but I was likening someone of that ilk who has a track record of success on a shoestring budget

Was more towards the fact you mentioned you thought he wouldn't cost too much more than NP.

Pearson Salary in the prem at Leicester was factored to be somewhere around £750kpa, £550kp at Derby, if you believe some tabloids.

By comparison Dyche was on circa £2.5-3.0mpa.

Wilder - further comparison, mooted figure of £675kpa in the EPL. Sportgrail mention a clause up to £1.5mpa but dont specify what said clause was or if activated.

 

[The Journalist]

As someone who’s very much pro-Pearson, I do think there’s an interesting and worthwhile conversation to be had around his future. I’m probably a bit closer to the middle of the two polarising views you generally hear on this (his record his dreadful v it’s not his fault).

There’s no doubt he inherited an absolute mess and, in my opinion, we needed an experienced leader more than we needed a top football coach to guide us through that and begin building something more sustainable.

The whole culture needed to change and it went far beyond signing talented players. To use an example, there were numerous occasions during his first 6-12 months when he picked an XI that was clearly about improving culture rather than improving results - Nathan Baker had a spell at left-back, not because he was our best left-back but because he did a good job when thrown in as an emergency and his application and performance merited keeping the shirt. It was a selection purely to send a message.

This is why many argue - and I agree - his results during that period are bordering on completely irrelevant and shouldn’t be used as a stick to beat him with now.

When I look at the bigger picture, I see a far healthier club and squad than we had two years ago. I see a Mark Ashton-less hierarchy making better decisions, a group of players giving their absolute everything, an academy being properly utilised and some of the best young talent we’ve had in years.

I think people forget the absolute apathy that engulfed the fanbase during the Holden ‘era’ - that, in my view, has gone. Whatever you think of him as a football coach, Pearson has created something we can get behind. And THAT is what we 100% needed above all else.

I guess the key question, though, is when the free pass on results expires - and this is very much subjective and quite hard to quantify.

For me, and to take this full circle, I do think it’s at least a conversation to now be had.

I’ve always felt - and said this on this forum from quite early on - that while Pearson was the right person to set us on the path we needed to be on we wouldn’t complete that journey with him. He’s a leader and a manager, by his own admission, but there’s a point when, without the riches of other clubs, you need more than that at this level to be successful.

So, ultimately, is it fair to think he should now be getting more out of what he’s got/created and could someone else pick up the baton and do a better job on the pitch? Well, quite possibly…

The one massive ‘but’ hanging over that is next summer. And with the last of the legacy high earners out of contract and a strong likelihood we’ll at least lose our best player Scott, possibly Semenyo too, I’m genuinely unsure where that’ll leave us. For the record, I think Pearson will keep us up this year.

I’ll stop rambling now but in summary… I do think it’s fair to start holding the manager to account much more for performances and results and entertaining the idea of moving on from Pearson is worthwhile, but the situation remains more complicated than many make out and it’s probably (but an uncomfortable probably) still safer to stick than twist.

[Rob k]

5 hours ago, Bs4Red said:

Pearson hasn’t brought through academy players, he’s had no choice and a bit of luck that a couple were decent.

The same as when LJ got a stroke of luck that Bobby was a striker, people wouldn’t credit him with a masterstroke.

Michael Duff, he’s done a great job at Cheltenham with no money and is now doing well this season with Barnsley, would cost much to prize him away from there. 

Chris Wilder, proven in the championship. Free agent. Sheff U probably best team I’ve seen in championship under him with the overlapping CBs

Lee Bowyer, did a fantastic job at Birmingham under much much worse conditions than we have at AG currently. 
 

I don’t know who'd I’d want but there are candidates out there. 

Duff a good shout 

 

[Sir Leigh of Somerset]

16 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Duff a good shout 

 

Up the Duff !

[Olé]

I like and have supported Pearson but I've realised recently (noting this is the third time in a month I've watched lifetime-bad performances) I'm probably more enamoured by having a manager like Pearson - as in a leader, known in football, speaks from experience, bit of charisma, grin on his face but scowl if he needs one - than actually having Pearson himself. Because there is no way in hell anyone can seriously keep on with this "what he inherited" nonsense and I'm saying that as someone who has defended him and is probably still on the fence.

What alarms me more than even results (although since the last international break those represent a huge collapse from where we started) is that the basic quality that I would expect to be coached on the training ground is not only not there, but rapidly getting worse. The standard of passing is abysmal for a team that we're led to believe trains together every day. We make more unforced errors than any side I've seen us play and I now include League One Lincoln in that (who misplaced one pass to us all night - which outclasses our standards).

How can it be "what he inherited" when it is players making an unacceptable number of basic errors game after game. We had our standard 3-4 occasions of passing the ball straight out of play (two with the chance to get a player clear to the byline), probably a similar number of being caught in possession or just giving it away at close range, and then of course the usual any number of woeful crosses and corners, most notably by Jay DaSilva who this season is like a bad caricature of himself, and specifically under the coaching of the present lot.

NONE of it is excused by prior recruitment or leadership at the club - this is a level of errors and absence of technical ability that'd be alarming several levels down the pyramid, let alone a team in the Championship. This unusual trait can only be a product of the drills and quality control of the current management and coaching staff. Probably the most accurate commentary is by Pearson himself, he's said a number of times he might just be here to point us in the right direction - I think he's done that but he is unable to elevate standards any further. 

[The Journalist]

1 hour ago, Olé said:

I like and have supported Pearson but I've realised recently (noting this is the third time in a month I've watched lifetime-bad performances) I'm probably more enamoured by having a manager like Pearson - as in a leader, known in football, speaks from experience, bit of charisma, grin on his face but scowl if he needs one - than actually having Pearson himself. Because there is no way in hell anyone can seriously keep on with this "what he inherited" nonsense and I'm saying that as someone who has defended him and is probably still on the fence.

What alarms me more than even results (although since the last international break those represent a huge collapse from where we started) is that the basic quality that I would expect to be coached on the training ground is not only not there, but rapidly getting worse. The standard of passing is abysmal for a team that we're led to believe trains together every day. We make more unforced errors than any side I've seen us play and I now include League One Lincoln in that (who misplaced one pass to us all night - which outclasses our standards).

How can it be "what he inherited" when it is players making an unacceptable number of basic errors game after game. We had our standard 3-4 occasions of passing the ball straight out of play (two with the chance to get a player clear to the byline), probably a similar number of being caught in possession or just giving it away at close range, and then of course the usual any number of woeful crosses and corners, most notably by Jay DaSilva who this season is like a bad caricature of himself, and specifically under the coaching of the present lot.

NONE of it is excused by prior recruitment or leadership at the club - this is a level of errors and absence of technical ability that'd be alarming several levels down the pyramid, let alone a team in the Championship. This unusual trait can only be a product of the drills and quality control of the current management and coaching staff. Probably the most accurate commentary is by Pearson himself, he's said a number of times he might just be here to point us in the right direction - I think he's done that but he is unable to elevate standards any further. 

How dare you come swanning in here trying to outdo my word count.

[Edgy Red]

3 hours ago, The Journalist said:

As someone who’s very much pro-Pearson, I do think there’s an interesting and worthwhile conversation to be had around his future. I’m probably a bit closer to the middle of the two polarising views you generally hear on this (his record his dreadful v it’s not his fault).

There’s no doubt he inherited an absolute mess and, in my opinion, we needed an experienced leader more than we needed a top football coach to guide us through that and begin building something more sustainable.

The whole culture needed to change and it went far beyond signing talented players. To use an example, there were numerous occasions during his first 6-12 months when he picked an XI that was clearly about improving culture rather than improving results - Nathan Baker had a spell at left-back, not because he was our best left-back but because he did a good job when thrown in as an emergency and his application and performance merited keeping the shirt. It was a selection purely to send a message.

This is why many argue - and I agree - his results during that period are bordering on completely irrelevant and shouldn’t be used as a stick to beat him with now.

When I look at the bigger picture, I see a far healthier club and squad than we had two years ago. I see a Mark Ashton-less hierarchy making better decisions, a group of players giving their absolute everything, an academy being properly utilised and some of the best young talent we’ve had in years.

I think people forget the absolute apathy that engulfed the fanbase during the Holden ‘era’ - that, in my view, has gone. Whatever you think of him as a football coach, Pearson has created something we can get behind. And THAT is what we 100% needed above all else.

I guess the key question, though, is when the free pass on results expires - and this is very much subjective and quite hard to quantify.

For me, and to take this full circle, I do think it’s at least a conversation to now be had.

I’ve always felt - and said this on this forum from quite early on - that while Pearson was the right person to set us on the path we needed to be on we wouldn’t complete that journey with him. He’s a leader and a manager, by his own admission, but there’s a point when, without the riches of other clubs, you need more than that at this level to be successful.

So, ultimately, is it fair to think he should now be getting more out of what he’s got/created and could someone else pick up the baton and do a better job on the pitch? Well, quite possibly…

The one massive ‘but’ hanging over that is next summer. And with the last of the legacy high earners out of contract and a strong likelihood we’ll at least lose our best player Scott, possibly Semenyo too, I’m genuinely unsure where that’ll leave us. For the record, I think Pearson will keep us up this year.

I’ll stop rambling now but in summary… I do think it’s fair to start holding the manager to account much more for performances and results and entertaining the idea of moving on from Pearson is worthwhile, but the situation remains more complicated than many make out and it’s probably (but an uncomfortable probably) still safer to stick than twist.

Thats an excellent summary and sums up pretty much where i'm at too.

We appear to have a very split fan base (which reflects life in general), with half wanting him out and half being more understanding given the issues at the club.

I do feel that he's now approaching his "tipping point", as after nearly 2 years in charge and numerous signings of his own, we appear to be regressing again.

I still don't really see a style of play (brief moments aside) and defensively we are weak, infact our team as a whole, is physically weak.

NP is a bullish and abrasive manager with strong views and i think this can cloud peoples judgement. Ultimately, football is a results business and we are in serious relegation trouble.

This is clearly now his team and he is responsible for the players that go out on the pitch. I am still (just about) in the stick with him 50%, but as i said, his tipping point is getting closer if things don't improve.

[Rob k]

2 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

Thats an excellent summary and sums up pretty much where i'm at too.

We appear to have a very split fan base (which reflects life in general), with half wanting him out and half being more understanding given the issues at the club.

I do feel that he's now approaching his "tipping point", as after nearly 2 years in charge and numerous signings of his own, we appear to be regressing again.

I still don't really see a style of play (brief moments aside) and defensively we are weak, infact our team as a whole, is physically weak.

NP is a bullish and abrasive manager with strong views and i think this can cloud peoples judgement. Ultimately, football is a results business and we are in serious relegation trouble.

This is clearly now his team and he is responsible for the players that go out on the pitch. I am still (just about) in the stick with him 50%, but as i said, his tipping point is getting closer if things don't improve.

I think though that if you are to change a manager then the decision should be made today, i don’t particularly care about a result against a club with parachute money when deciding a managers future but we don’t have a game until 10th December so a real opportunity  for a new manager to come and work with players before the next game, if it’s to happen then get it done today, what’s the point in waiting?

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, The Journalist said:

As someone who’s very much pro-Pearson, I do think there’s an interesting and worthwhile conversation to be had around his future. I’m probably a bit closer to the middle of the two polarising views you generally hear on this (his record his dreadful v it’s not his fault).

There’s no doubt he inherited an absolute mess and, in my opinion, we needed an experienced leader more than we needed a top football coach to guide us through that and begin building something more sustainable.

The whole culture needed to change and it went far beyond signing talented players. To use an example, there were numerous occasions during his first 6-12 months when he picked an XI that was clearly about improving culture rather than improving results - Nathan Baker had a spell at left-back, not because he was our best left-back but because he did a good job when thrown in as an emergency and his application and performance merited keeping the shirt. It was a selection purely to send a message.

This is why many argue - and I agree - his results during that period are bordering on completely irrelevant and shouldn’t be used as a stick to beat him with now.

When I look at the bigger picture, I see a far healthier club and squad than we had two years ago. I see a Mark Ashton-less hierarchy making better decisions, a group of players giving their absolute everything, an academy being properly utilised and some of the best young talent we’ve had in years.

I think people forget the absolute apathy that engulfed the fanbase during the Holden ‘era’ - that, in my view, has gone. Whatever you think of him as a football coach, Pearson has created something we can get behind. And THAT is what we 100% needed above all else.

I guess the key question, though, is when the free pass on results expires - and this is very much subjective and quite hard to quantify.

For me, and to take this full circle, I do think it’s at least a conversation to now be had.

I’ve always felt - and said this on this forum from quite early on - that while Pearson was the right person to set us on the path we needed to be on we wouldn’t complete that journey with him. He’s a leader and a manager, by his own admission, but there’s a point when, without the riches of other clubs, you need more than that at this level to be successful.

So, ultimately, is it fair to think he should now be getting more out of what he’s got/created and could someone else pick up the baton and do a better job on the pitch? Well, quite possibly…

The one massive ‘but’ hanging over that is next summer. And with the last of the legacy high earners out of contract and a strong likelihood we’ll at least lose our best player Scott, possibly Semenyo too, I’m genuinely unsure where that’ll leave us. For the record, I think Pearson will keep us up this year.

I’ll stop rambling now but in summary… I do think it’s fair to start holding the manager to account much more for performances and results and entertaining the idea of moving on from Pearson is worthwhile, but the situation remains more complicated than many make out and it’s probably (but an uncomfortable probably) still safer to stick than twist.

This is where I am too, pretty much.

When the accounts come out later this week (hopefully) we can see how big a mess it is.  Contracts have to be honoured…this summer all the pre-Pearson players are OOC bar Joe Williams.  But that doesn’t necessarily mean we can mad either.  The losses still hang around because of the 3 year cycle, unless the new FFP rules become clear and give us a get-out!  It’s quite possible next season’s squad is weaker than this.  That sounds implausible doesn’t it, but it could.

2 hours ago, Olé said:

I like and have supported Pearson but I've realised recently (noting this is the third time in a month I've watched lifetime-bad performances) I'm probably more enamoured by having a manager like Pearson - as in a leader, known in football, speaks from experience, bit of charisma, grin on his face but scowl if he needs one - than actually having Pearson himself. Because there is no way in hell anyone can seriously keep on with this "what he inherited" nonsense and I'm saying that as someone who has defended him and is probably still on the fence.

What alarms me more than even results (although since the last international break those represent a huge collapse from where we started) is that the basic quality that I would expect to be coached on the training ground is not only not there, but rapidly getting worse. The standard of passing is abysmal for a team that we're led to believe trains together every day. We make more unforced errors than any side I've seen us play and I now include League One Lincoln in that (who misplaced one pass to us all night - which outclasses our standards).

How can it be "what he inherited" when it is players making an unacceptable number of basic errors game after game. We had our standard 3-4 occasions of passing the ball straight out of play (two with the chance to get a player clear to the byline), probably a similar number of being caught in possession or just giving it away at close range, and then of course the usual any number of woeful crosses and corners, most notably by Jay DaSilva who this season is like a bad caricature of himself, and specifically under the coaching of the present lot.

NONE of it is excused by prior recruitment or leadership at the club - this is a level of errors and absence of technical ability that'd be alarming several levels down the pyramid, let alone a team in the Championship. This unusual trait can only be a product of the drills and quality control of the current management and coaching staff. Probably the most accurate commentary is by Pearson himself, he's said a number of times he might just be here to point us in the right direction - I think he's done that but he is unable to elevate standards any further. 

I think what we’ve witnessed is how important individual players are to us, or more importantly, the more of them you can get in the eleven, the better chance we have of competing.  Naismith, James, Weimann.  Naismith injured, James injured, but back, Weimann out of form, hopefully coming back to form.  Semenyo and Martin pairing were a big part of last season’s attacking success.  Both are nowhere near at that level.  Thankfully Conway and Wells have stepped into the breach.

Last night was a combo of a couple of youngsters not ready and the likes of King, Martin, Klose, Semenyo, Sykes, Dasilva not being good enough / in form enough to raise their games to cover others.  It shows zero depth.

Much as I think the WC is coming at a good time, I do worry that giving the players a holiday is too good for them / some of them.  Nige needs to galvanise what he has over the next month.  Could really do with getting something Saturday.  No shit Sherlock.

 

[Sir Geoff]

9 hours ago, big dosser said:

im going totally left field here but everyone always ask who and why

but i would love to see a garth Ainsworth type 

reasons

realistic chance he would be interested 

works with pocket money at a small club in a fair size league of much bigger clubs

finds decent players for that level from lower leagues

uses the loan market well and gets the best out of players

yes a bit of a mavrick but seems to to always have that air of positivity about him which i think rubs of from staff to fans

shoot me down by all means but if the qpr man went to wolves many think ainsworth was up there as replacement

as everyone on here says give a name and reason so only fair i do

 

Ok I'll bite. Who is this Gareth Ainsworth type ?

Where is he managing ?, Who actually is he ?

Why not a Pep or Klopp type ?

Unfortunately these are fictitious characters not real available football managers.

Fwiw I would have sounded out Ainsworth ( the actual one) when considering sacking LJ.

[firstdivision]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This is where I am too, pretty much.

When the accounts come out later this week (hopefully) we can see how big a mess it is.  Contracts have to be honoured…this summer all the pre-Pearson players are OOC bar Joe Williams.  But that doesn’t necessarily mean we can mad either.  The losses still hang around because of the 3 year cycle, unless the new FFP rules become clear and give us a get-out!  It’s quite possible next season’s squad is weaker than this.  That sounds implausible doesn’t it, but it could.

I think what we’ve witnessed is how important individual players are to us, or more importantly, the more of them you can get in the eleven, the better chance we have of competing.  Naismith, James, Weimann.  Naismith injured, James injured, but back, Weimann out of form, hopefully coming back to form.  Semenyo and Martin pairing were a big part of last season’s attacking success.  Both are nowhere near at that level.  Thankfully Conway and Wells have stepped into the breach.

Last night was a combo of a couple of youngsters not ready and the likes of King, Martin, Klose, Semenyo, Sykes, Dasilva not being good enough / in form enough to raise their games to cover others.  It shows zero depth.

Much as I think the WC is coming at a good time, I do worry that giving the players a holiday is too good for them / some of them.  Nige needs to galvanise what he has over the next month.  Could really do with getting something Saturday.  No shit Sherlock.

 

Yes, a team that has three over-the-hill old men and two not-ready youngsters is likely to find it difficult against a competent, well-organised team. I saw the side last night and thought that midfield two looks very thin. Plus Antoine looks out of form/short of confidence. Daft to play him as wing back on Saturday. 
 

[mozo]

5 hours ago, The Journalist said:

As someone who’s very much pro-Pearson, I do think there’s an interesting and worthwhile conversation to be had around his future. I’m probably a bit closer to the middle of the two polarising views you generally hear on this (his record his dreadful v it’s not his fault).

There’s no doubt he inherited an absolute mess and, in my opinion, we needed an experienced leader more than we needed a top football coach to guide us through that and begin building something more sustainable.

The whole culture needed to change and it went far beyond signing talented players. To use an example, there were numerous occasions during his first 6-12 months when he picked an XI that was clearly about improving culture rather than improving results - Nathan Baker had a spell at left-back, not because he was our best left-back but because he did a good job when thrown in as an emergency and his application and performance merited keeping the shirt. It was a selection purely to send a message.

This is why many argue - and I agree - his results during that period are bordering on completely irrelevant and shouldn’t be used as a stick to beat him with now.

When I look at the bigger picture, I see a far healthier club and squad than we had two years ago. I see a Mark Ashton-less hierarchy making better decisions, a group of players giving their absolute everything, an academy being properly utilised and some of the best young talent we’ve had in years.

I think people forget the absolute apathy that engulfed the fanbase during the Holden ‘era’ - that, in my view, has gone. Whatever you think of him as a football coach, Pearson has created something we can get behind. And THAT is what we 100% needed above all else.

I guess the key question, though, is when the free pass on results expires - and this is very much subjective and quite hard to quantify.

For me, and to take this full circle, I do think it’s at least a conversation to now be had.

I’ve always felt - and said this on this forum from quite early on - that while Pearson was the right person to set us on the path we needed to be on we wouldn’t complete that journey with him. He’s a leader and a manager, by his own admission, but there’s a point when, without the riches of other clubs, you need more than that at this level to be successful.

So, ultimately, is it fair to think he should now be getting more out of what he’s got/created and could someone else pick up the baton and do a better job on the pitch? Well, quite possibly…

The one massive ‘but’ hanging over that is next summer. And with the last of the legacy high earners out of contract and a strong likelihood we’ll at least lose our best player Scott, possibly Semenyo too, I’m genuinely unsure where that’ll leave us. For the record, I think Pearson will keep us up this year.

I’ll stop rambling now but in summary… I do think it’s fair to start holding the manager to account much more for performances and results and entertaining the idea of moving on from Pearson is worthwhile, but the situation remains more complicated than many make out and it’s probably (but an uncomfortable probably) still safer to stick than twist.

Great rambling!

The league table shows two things; we're 2 defeats from bottom 3, booing and a confidence issue.

Also, we're 2 wins away from being back in mid-table and a feeling of calm.

So, with two very opposite outcomes both in touching distance, it's not time to be wheeling the guillotine out.

But given current league form, coupled with cup humiliation, it is absolutely the right time to question Nige's line ups, tactics and substitutions.

If things continue to slide there will come a time where we have to ask at what point this season is on course to be a catastrophic failure. Hopefully we won't get to that point.

If ever we needed a dodgy penalty decision to go our way, it's now!

[Dredd]

Personally I wouldn’t get rid of Pearson, he’s kept us up on free transfers and youth team players. It’s the same old discussion and it won’t go away: is he/the team performing better or worse considering what he’s had to work with? The fan base is understandably split. I’d argue at the moment it’s probably performing as expected. Inconsistent. When our key players are firing we look good, when they aren’t we look dreadful. My biggest bugbear though is that we have never looked solid at the back (regardless of who we have played at any one time) and that’s something that’s up to the manager to resolve. What he can’t be held accountable for however is individual errors and these at the moment are rife.

I’d love to know what happened during that first international break. We were scoring at will and looked so dangerous in attack. Then all of a sudden….meh. 
 

 

[firstdivision]

9 hours ago, Tomo said:

1) Pearson Stays
2) Get Behind The Team - So We Stay Up This Season
3) Judge The Manager After The Summer  - After The Clear Out
4) Understand Our Situation

1 Pearson goes.

2 Find someone who can inspire and organise.

3 Move on from something that hasn’t worked before it’s too late.

4 Don’t grimly accept the lot circumstances have handed you. 
 

The other side of the argument to consider - just for balance. Stick or twist? I’m not entirely sure there is a clear right answer at the moment. Perhaps we literally can’t afford to change. If so, that’s an uncomfortable position to be in. Change always has to be an option. 


 

9 hours ago, Tomo said:

1) Pearson Stays
2) Get Behind The Team - So We Stay Up This Season
3) Judge The Manager After The Summer  - After The Clear Out
4) Understand Our Situation

1 Pearson goes.

2 Find someone who can inspire and organise.

3 Move on from something that hasn’t worked before it’s too late.

4 Don’t grimly accept the lot circumstances have handed you. 
 

The other side of the argument to consider - just for balance. Stick or twist? I’m not entirely sure there is a clear right answer at the moment. Perhaps we literally can’t afford to change. If so, that’s an uncomfortable position to be in. Change always has to be an option.