Lee Johnson

[cidercity1987]

Just now, ChrisBW said:

He developed 2 players and won a league cup game, some achievements. He was hopelessly out of his depth.

This is an odd post when he took us further in the cup since the late 1980s and our highest finish except his father since when , early 1980s?

[steviestevieneville]

1 minute ago, cidercity1987 said:

Developed players like Reid and Webster

Played brilliant football for the second half of 2017

Beat Man Utd and gave many fans their best football night ever

Absolutely nailed the 0-1 away performance 

There was a lot to love about his management overall despite the well documented downsides like very streaky and many poor home performances 

That great football was a bit of a myth . He was forced into a change of shape due to injuries . He tinkered way too much before & after the injuries . Yes we played some very good football , for about three months . 

[The Coach]

Bottom line for me is he was given the key to the kingdom with strong financial backing like we’ve never seen before at City. Just to be a mid-table team that had no football philosophy in play that Johnson always spoke about. 

[Glen hump]

2 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Developed players like Reid and Webster

Played brilliant football for the second half of 2017

Beat Man Utd and gave many fans their best football night ever

Absolutely nailed the 0-1 away performance 

There was a lot to love about his management overall despite the well documented downsides like very streaky and many poor home performances 

His signings overall were shocking, left us in a complete mess  Ashton and sl take big responsibility for that as well, sacked at Sunderland and not done anything of note at hibs yet 

[Davefevs]

30 minutes ago, Fred89 said:

They hate Johnson/Ashton and blame finances despite the money Johnson earned from his coaching and team selection on Kelly ,Brownhill, Bryan , Webster ,Flint,Kodjia and completely ignore the fact we had a world wide unforeseen Pandemic closing down the world affecting the finances of every business!

I haven’t seen such irrational hatred since Donald Trump

it all stems from the boo boys in his playing days when we’re top 2 in the championship, if you ask them why they dislike him they will lie or give you no answer and call you an idiot, just like Donald

I have no LJ playing-days bias, I saw him once live, for 40 minutes home to Watford in the 0-0 where he went off injured in 07-08.

So I’d rather criticise the “regime” rather than an individual.

But around 2016 a mate of mine asked whether SL’s sustainable financial model could see us make the PL vs the unfairness of the parachute payment clubs, so I set about really looking into finances in football.  My interest had already been piqued by reading two books, one by David Conn (The Beautiful Game) and Simon Jordan’s autobiography, which totally changed by opinion of him.

Before the pandemic, the finances were beginning to look a bit dodgy.  And I don’t mean breaking FFP, just that for the outlay and increases in costs (wages, amortisation, other) I wasn’t convinced we were quite as “world class” as we were being told.

Going back to the question posed by my mate, it started to dawn on me that two things were important:

• Academy
• Recruitment

No shit Sherlock you may cry.

And over time, we didn’t perform well enough in either of those areas.

We didn’t bring enough through the academy.  Whether they were good enough is a matter for debate, but even if they’re not, a bit of exposure can make them a sellable asset.

We recruited poorly, our hit-rate was terrible.  Thankfully, the few hits we had covered up the misses.  A “world leading recruitment set-up” we were told, “seen as the go to for other clubs”, was a laughable claim.

Part of the reason for the poor hit-rate was:

• too many players brought in meaning they couldn’t all play, therefore they couldn’t add value
• bought then loaned them
• too high fees / too high wages
• no real playing system, meaning bullet one

Basically the Webster and Kelly sales saved it from being disastrous.  Covid shone a light on it…and Covid really did was speed up the decline…and make a rebuild necessary and draw out the pain.  If you think this is all down to Covid, then I’m afraid I couldn’t disagree with you more.  I wrote on here several times pre-Covid about the warning signs.  The trajectory was worrying.

Before Mr P chimes in, I’ve used the football club accounts above, not to be devious, but because Ashton Gate Ltd numbers don’t really have any materiality or relevance to this debate.

Despite all the sales, we still lost £70m over 5 seasons of SL / Ashton’s tenure (4 of LJ / 1 of DH), or £35m of the 4 years of SL / MA / LJ.

The wage bill doubled, the amortisation went up 5-fold, other costs doubled too.  We carried on spending more and more even though income had steadied.  Basically we’d done the stadium re-fit and there’s inky so much you can sweat!

I also “we” a lot above…I should really use “they”.

LJ did some good things too, but he was part of a “regime” that was moving towards putting us in the shit.

That’s my brief summary of why I think LJ deserves criticism for the part he played…and that’s with no bias from his playing days or his dad or anything else.

As above he deserves some praise too, but for me, the above tends to outweigh it.

Happy to go into more detail if you like.  But if you’re blaming Covid you’ve missed the root cause.

Is it perfect under SL / NP / PA / Tins?  Nope.  But it is moving us forward into a far better position to achieve success.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Some good things, some bad things IMO.

Too many misses vs not enough hits in the market. Didn't often utilise suitable tactics either for many he did sign.

Sure he had a major budget by our standards but he was a very fortunate beneficiary in that regard as our income rose. Unless some think it was planned or pre-ordained.

We had not a bad Cup record at times, for 2-3 years but otoh far too much player churned and not making at least one play-off a failure especially 2017-18..at which point we would have been in a very good place because we had players with significant Cup tie type experience which is transferable to playoffs. Where we were Boxing Day 2017 we shouldn't have failed to make playoffs I believe.

Some youth came through but not like now! Squad far too big, lots of chopping and changing. Some credit for outgoing fees however but the market was rising too- which also can apply to signings btw.

By his final season the football was negative, reactive (often) and post Afobe injury and the two are linked it became one dimensional.

Probably could have managed Moore, Magnússon better and sure others can be listed, in terms of younger players who he was not great with.

[Fordy62]

I have no opinion. 

[Fordy62]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Some good things, some bad things IMO.

Too many misses vs not enough hits in the market. Didn't often utilise suitable tactics either for many he did sign.

Sure he had a major budget by our standards but he was a very fortunate beneficiary in that regard as our income rose. Unless some think it was planned or pre-ordained.

We had not a bad Cup record at times, for 2-3 years but otoh far too much player churned and not making at least one play-off a failure especially 2017-18..at which point we would have been in a very good place because we had players with significant Cup tie type experience which is transferable to playoffs. Where we were Boxing Day 2017 we shouldn't have failed to make playoffs I believe.

Some youth came through but not like now! Squad far too big, lots of chopping and changing. Some credit for outgoing fees however but the market was rising too- which also can apply to signings btw.

By his final season the football was negative, reactive (often) and post Afobe injury and the two are linked it became one dimensional.

Probably could have managed Moore, Magnússon better and sure others can be listed, in terms of younger players who he was not great with.

We should probably factor in that the outgoings of Reid and Wester (credit) were considerably offset by him giving away Ayling and Freeman, both of whom proved themselves to be far better than pretty much everyone he brought in. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

51 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Developed players like Reid and Webster

Played brilliant football for the second half of 2017

Beat Man Utd and gave many fans their best football night ever

Absolutely nailed the 0-1 away performance 

There was a lot to love about his management overall despite the well documented downsides like very streaky and many poor home performances 

Developed 2 players.... out of how many???

Played brilliant football (I agree) - yes, for 3 months. What did it achieve???

He's not the only City manager to have delivered a great Cup win - Russell Osman delivered a win at Annfield, for heaven's sake. Russell Osman! And with infinitely less resources, meagre resources in fact.

Away wins, you say. As if no other City manager ever did at this level. And to what end come May every year - none.

I've found myself agreeing with lots of your posts recently but this one's bunkum kid. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[robinforlife2]

28 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

We should probably factor in that the outgoings of Reid and Wester (credit) were considerably offset by him giving away Ayling and Freeman, both of whom proved themselves to be far better than pretty much everyone he brought in. 

How much choice would Lee have had regarding Ayling after the Cheltenham situation. It always felt to me that those upstairs decided he would be leaving, as well as the others involved that day at the races, and even if LJ wanted to keep him, he wouldn't have been allowed to. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

38 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

We should probably factor in that the outgoings of Reid and Wester (credit) were considerably offset by him giving away Ayling and Freeman, both of whom proved themselves to be far better than pretty much everyone he brought in. 

Some truth there. Ayling was linked to the Cheltenham stuff wasn't he.

Freeman didn't he have some contractual issue, remind us? Was it that we sold him at final chance fo gain value or would he not sign? Can't recall.

[Fordy62]

10 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

How much choice would Lee have had regarding Ayling after the Cheltenham situation. It always felt to me that those upstairs decided he would be leaving, as well as the others involved that day at the races, and even if LJ wanted to keep him, he wouldn't have been allowed to. 

I don’t buy it. That sounds like an easy excuse for those who want to exonerate LJ. I mean, it was hardly a serious misdemeanour. LJ didn’t rate him and got rid. He was an excellent player who went onto prove he was leagues above LJ. 

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Some truth there. Ayling was linked to the Cheltenham stuff wasn't he.

Freeman didn't he have some contractual issue, remind us? Was it that we sold him at final chance fo gain value or would he not sign? Can't recall.

He got blamed for not playing the ball fast enough and LJ wasn’t a fan. Got rid for about 500k if I remember correctly and whoever he went to (QPR?) sold him for 9m. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

He got blamed for not playing the ball fast enough and LJ wasn’t a fan. Got rid for about 500k if I remember correctly and whoever he went to (QPR?) sold him for 9m. 

We offered him a new contract in January 2017.

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/freeman-offered-new-deal/

By the end of the month he was sold, cannot remember much beyond that.

Did he decline a new deal, was it wage related?

Edited August 11, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[The Coach]

I’ll add on top also.

What gave merit for Johnson to take on the role at a Championship club during that point at Barnsley. When he had yet to achieve anything.

Wold any other Championship club at that point hired Lee Johnson? I do believe the answer to that question is no.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Anyway is there is a bit of revisionism over Freeman, or was the club/manager more at fault.

Contract wise I mean.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[chowie]

2 minutes ago, The Coach said:

I’ll add on top also.

What gave merit for Johnson to take on the role at a Championship club during that point at Barnsley. When he had yet to achieve anything.

Wold any other Championship club at that point hired Lee Johnson? I do believe the answer to that question is no.

definitely, was a huge gamble... then next up Dean 'the human' Holden when we desperately need experience. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, chowie said:

definitely, was a huge gamble... then next up Dean 'the human' Holden when we desperately need experience. 

The popular choice Hughton bombed at Nottingham Forest and may well have put us in a worse financial hole. Although a 2 year window to go up before FFP closed in you never know..

[cidercity1987]

18 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I don’t buy it. That sounds like an easy excuse for those who want to exonerate LJ. I mean, it was hardly a serious misdemeanour. LJ didn’t rate him and got rid. He was an excellent player who went onto prove he was leagues above LJ. 

 in what way did the most overrated city player in years prove he was leagues above LJ? He has barely played in the Prem if that's what you mean

[Fordy62]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The popular choice Hughton bombed at Nottingham Forest and may well have put us in a worse financial hole. Although a 2 year window to go up before FFP closed in you never know..

Football is full of ifs and buts. But it is wholly factual that we’ve never ever seen anyone being given the level of financial freedom that LJ was, now, you can argue that it was due to Nepotism… or you can be wrong. 

1 minute ago, cidercity1987 said:

 in what way did the most overrated city player in years prove he was leagues above LJ? He has barely played in the Prem if that's what you mean

Are you joking, or just grossly misinformed?  

[cidercity1987]

1 minute ago, Fordy62 said:

Football is full of ifs and buts. But it is wholly factual that we’ve never ever seen anyone being given the level of financial freedom that LJ was, now, you can argue that it was due to Nepotism… or you can be wrong. 

Are you joking, or just grossly misinformed?  

No, come on ... how is Freeman 'leagues above' LJ

 

[cidercity1987]

Just now, cidercity1987 said:

No, come on ... how is Freeman 'leagues above' LJ

 

When in fact he has barely played for any team above lower mid table Champ

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, cidercity1987 said:

No, come on ... how is Freeman 'leagues above' LJ

 

I think if you follow the thread, we’re talking about Ayling. 

[cidercity1987]

Just now, Fordy62 said:

I think if you follow the thread, we’re talking about Ayling. 

OK fine thanks. Yes he is decent, LJ was wrong on him and clearly preferred Matthews 

Freeman is the most overrated City player in years 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Football is full of ifs and buts. But it is wholly factual that we’ve never ever seen anyone being given the level of financial freedom that LJ was, now, you can argue that it was due to Nepotism… or you can be wrong. 

However yes he got the biggest budget and freedom of any City manager. Had Cotts retained 6 months more.of pragmatism perhaps higher revenue would have flowed his way too. He was very heavily indulged, was Lee Johnson.

Timing was also a friend of Lee Johnson in a way it was not for Cotts, NP.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Fordy62]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

However yes he got the biggest budget and freedom of any City manager. Had Cotts retained 6 months more.of pragmatism perhaps higher revenue would have flowed his way too. He was very heavily indulged.

Steve Lansdown was also a friend of Lee Johnson in a way he was not for Cotts, NP.

Edited for accuracy!

[Monkeh]

Lee Johnson lives rent free in people's head,

We've had 2 managers since him he's gone,

Gwt over it

[Tim Monaghan]

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Edited for accuracy!

Devil's advocate then, are you saying that had Cotts managed to keep us up.and stay in situ until summer 2016 he wouldn't have been backed somewhat more as revenue grew?

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

32 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

He got blamed for not playing the ball fast enough and LJ wasn’t a fan. Got rid for about 500k if I remember correctly and whoever he went to (QPR?) sold him for 9m. 

Don’t forget that it was Cotterill that said Ayling couldn’t play fullback.