Kalas - will we get "value on the pitch", like we did for Fam, before he undoubtedly walks in the summer?

[headhunter]

Is our Czech international available for any of the games before the window opens? What's the latest injury update or is there more to it?

If not then that means he's been out for 10 months and no one will buy him in January. There was a large outcry when Fam walked, by being OOC,  in the summer of 2021 - a £5.3M signing of whom our then CEO, Mark Ashton, famously said "we'll get our value on the pitch" after the Senegalese international would not sign a new deal.

The situation with Kalas is worse in the sense that the club will get nothing for the player who at £8.5M is THE record signing and who ,since he's been in the treatment room, has cost us a best estimate £1M in wages. Sadly another example of the profligacy of the club in the Ashton years.

Nahki too is OOC in the summer another high value acquisition but if he goes, good luck to him. He's been injury free and the model professional despite being frozen out by NP last season. As his strike partner in the U21s he helped Conway develop to the player he's become and is now a definite starter for me with 8 goals this campaign playing in his best position.

To me, it would make sense for the club to declare before the window opens whether fresh terms have been offered to any of the Summer 2023 OOC players - so far only HNM who is being sidelined for not signing!

[LondonBristolian]

Genuine question - what are the benefits to the club of declaring before the window whether fresh terms have been offered to the players?

I can see why fans would be curious about it but it's not obvious to me what the club gains by going public on negotiations. In fact, you could argue that Ashton's public comments on Diediou two years ago seemed to have a damaging and divisive effect on morale. Isn't it in the club's interests to keep negotiations private?

[JoeAman08]

Different scenarios imo. Fam was seemingly wanted around England and Europe in that last year. Maybe not at the price we wanted but we could have possibly got something meaningful if we had been clever. 
 

Kalas, I don’t think is seen in that same light. First off there is positional value. Strikers are more valuable especially in January. Also, as you said, he has been injured all year. No one wants to pay for that or even split the wages he is on in a way that would be worth it for us. 
 

The interesting one would be Wells. I’d like to keep him longer but not sure we’ll be able to agree a wage with him as we are run now. He has been in very good form and is possible we could get something for him from a promotion pushing side. Then again, how much worse does that make us? 
 

[Red-Robbo]

At this rate, he'll be hobbling away rather than walking.

[Davefevs]

The Fam situation was very different imho.  We wanted him to stay, put a “very good, one of best contracts in City’s history” (quote Mark Ashton) on the table which he wouldn’t sign.  Fam denied it was that good!!  We did that whilst saying we couldn’t offer any other players a deal…and that for me created a real division in the squad, especially as Fam then went through the motions as soon as the Jan window ended.

Kalas injury update was “hoping he’d be around for the Xmas games” (paraphrased).

Also, there are a lot of conversations that happen before a contract is put in front of a player, pretty likely that the actual paperwork is only prepared when both parties are in agreement.  I’m sure there are discussions going on with lots of our players (CEO, Tins and Agent / Player).  Nige will, have input on who he wants to keep and budget implications of any discussions, e.g. if you want player X he’ll cost £x which means you might not have as much for player Y.

We are all in the dark, bar the usual whispers we hear.  Some players might even sign a pre-contract on Jan 1st,  e.g. Massengo.  Yep, we would all like to be kept in the picture but I’m not sure it’s that realistic…certainly not asking Nige.  One for Tins and Gould to answer.

[marcofisher]

I could see Wells staying on reduced terms like Andi did a few years ago. 
 

As for Kalas, another monumentally bad investment, just like Massengo, when we look at how it will eventually result for us. Both talented players, but not worth what we have invested in them and what we have got/will get in return over their time here.

Most important now is just getting them off the books, regardless of fee, and freeing up a lot of wage budget for next year.

 

[Port Said Red]

I don't know.

I do however think you may have beaten NTTDS to the record for longest thread title.

[GrahamC]

There’s no more to it, his first operation didn’t solve the issue, but my understanding is that he’s likely to be available for the Xmas games.

Prior to March when he was injured I think Kalas has been a decent signing, consistently one of our best players & good enough to get in a side that made the Euro semi final.

His availability record until last March was pretty decent, I’m all for having a moan at Ashton but I’m not sure this is one where that is particularly fair.

It will be interesting to see how the remainder of the season pans out for him, he is in an awful position negotiation wise having missed nearly 9 months of football & on our top wage.

Would we be interested in offering him a much reduced new contract if he stays fit? Who is going to be prepared to offer him something elsewhere based on the last year?

Pearson did surprise us by offering Baker another contract & I do think he rates him but there is a lot that could change before that scenario becomes even possible.

[Sir Geoff]

Big difference is we could probably have sold Fam or at least traded (talk of a swap with Assombolonga (sic)). No chance of that with Kalas and his recent long term injury. 

Probably either he has a 'miracle' recovery and goes out on loan til seasons end or he walks / limps away for nothing.

[DaveF]

24 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

I could see Wells staying on reduced terms like Andi did a few years ago. 
 

As for Kalas, another monumentally bad investment, just like Massengo, when we look at how it will eventually result for us. Both talented players, but not worth what we have invested in them and what we have got/will get in return over their time here.

Most important now is just getting them off the books, regardless of fee, and freeing up a lot of wage budget for next year.

 

Hes played almost 150 matches for us and has been one of our best players throughout his time here, certainly not that bad an investment!

[LondonBristolian]

16 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

There’s no more to it, his first operation didn’t solve the issue, but my understanding is that he’s likely to be available for the Xmas games.

Prior to March when he was injured I think Kalas has been a decent signing, consistently one of our best players & good enough to get in a side that made the Euro semi final.

His availability record until last March was pretty decent, I’m all for having a moan at Ashton but I’m not sure this is one where that is particularly fair.

It will be interesting to see how the remainder of the season pans out for him, he is in an awful position negotiation wise having missed nearly 9 months of football & on our top wage.

Would we be interested in offering him a much reduced new contract if he stays fit? Who is going to be prepared to offer him something elsewhere based on the last year?

Pearson did surprise us by offering Baker another contract & I do think he rates him but there is a lot that could change before that scenario becomes even possible.

I think this is the major question.

There is no doubt Kalas is an asset but, even without a need for us to cut costs post-COVID, it would be incredibly difficult for us to offer him a contract on the same terms unless we are 100% confident his fitness issues are sorted. And the fact Baker was a gamble which sadly did not pay off for us or him might even be a factor against us offering Kalas terms.  But, as you say, Kalas might find other clubs are unwilling to gamble on him at the same kind of wage level so he may need to accept a salary drop wherever he goes.

I think it will ultimately come down to pragmatism. I suspect the reason that Baker was re-signed in 2021 and Vyner was not offloaded this summer was a simple calculation that those decisions represented better value for money than any alternatives out there. I suspect the decision for Kalas will be based on the question of whether we can get a centre-back who - in terms of fitness, quality and wage - represents better value or not. If not then Kalas will be retained. 

[GrahamC]

12 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think this is the major question.

There is no doubt Kalas is an asset but, even without a need for us to cut costs post-COVID, it would be incredibly difficult for us to offer him a contract on the same terms unless we are 100% confident his fitness issues are sorted. And the fact Baker was a gamble which sadly did not pay off for us or him might even be a factor against us offering Kalas terms.  But, as you say, Kalas might find other clubs are unwilling to gamble on him at the same kind of wage level so he may need to accept a salary drop wherever he goes.

I think it will ultimately come down to pragmatism. I suspect the reason that Baker was re-signed in 2021 and Vyner was not offloaded this summer was a simple calculation that those decisions represented better value for money than any alternatives out there. I suspect the decision for Kalas will be based on the question of whether we can get a centre-back who - in terms of fitness, quality and wage - represents better value or not. If not then Kalas will be retained. 

Two points re your excellent post;

I doubt very much any potential offer from us would be more than half what he’s on now, if he can get a better deal elsewhere than this after his last 12 months then good luck to him.

Secondly I wouldn’t have offered Baker another contract (my posts around the time show that) but it is quite possible for us to argue that we felt under Rennie we’d finally sorted his longstanding injury problems only for successive serious concussions to sadly result in his early retirement & no one could have predicted that.

[marcofisher]

34 minutes ago, DaveF said:

Hes played almost 150 matches for us and has been one of our best players throughout his time here, certainly not that bad an investment!

Yes and we paid £8.5 million and many more millions on wages and are set to receive no return on that investment. 
 

I did not say he was a bad player, he is one of the best in the squad when fit. Same as Massengo.

[cidered abroad]

2 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

Different scenarios imo. Fam was seemingly wanted around England and Europe in that last year. Maybe not at the price we wanted but we could have possibly got something meaningful if we had been clever. 
 

Kalas, I don’t think is seen in that same light. First off there is positional value. Strikers are more valuable especially in January. Also, as you said, he has been injured all year. No one wants to pay for that or even split the wages he is on in a way that would be worth it for us. 
 

The interesting one would be Wells. I’d like to keep him longer but not sure we’ll be able to agree a wage with him as we are run now. He has been in very good form and is possible we could get something for him from a promotion pushing side. Then again, how much worse does that make us? 
 

Wells is now three years older, in his early thirties. His bargaining power is diminished solely due to age, so I would not be the least bit surprised for him to accept two years at 50% of the current wage. He is still a valuable member of the squad as a first teamer who will help young strikers to improve.

 

[Steve Watts]

1 hour ago, marcofisher said:

I could see Wells staying on reduced terms like Andi did a few years ago. 
 

As for Kalas, another monumentally bad investment, just like Massengo, when we look at how it will eventually result for us. Both talented players, but not worth what we have invested in them and what we have got/will get in return over their time here.

Most important now is just getting them off the books, regardless of fee, and freeing up a lot of wage budget for next year.

 

A couple of things here......  Massengo, at £2m wasn't a bad investment.  He had the potential to increase in value well above that.  It was a calculated risk that didn't pay off, but it was no Kasey Palmer and it was one who, at the time, we could afford to take a punt on.

Kalas hasn't proved a massive success since signing permanently, but that's down to management over the last few years.  The injury is unfortunate though and could not have been foreseen.  As for the money paid, we paid an ambitious, and yes, somewhat naïve amount, but at a time, when prices for players were going up massively.  Covid has made the deal less value for money as the transfer market crashed because of it.  Again, this could not have been foreseen at the time. £8m feels too much, especially for a club of our size, but there weren't many dissenting voices around about that at the time. 

25 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think this is the major question.

There is no doubt Kalas is an asset but, even without a need for us to cut costs post-COVID, it would be incredibly difficult for us to offer him a contract on the same terms unless we are 100% confident his fitness issues are sorted. And the fact Baker was a gamble which sadly did not pay off for us or him might even be a factor against us offering Kalas terms.  But, as you say, Kalas might find other clubs are unwilling to gamble on him at the same kind of wage level so he may need to accept a salary drop wherever he goes.

I think it will ultimately come down to pragmatism. I suspect the reason that Baker was re-signed in 2021 and Vyner was not offloaded this summer was a simple calculation that those decisions represented better value for money than any alternatives out there. I suspect the decision for Kalas will be based on the question of whether we can get a centre-back who - in terms of fitness, quality and wage - represents better value or not. If not then Kalas will be retained. 

I would say that this shouldn't have a massive bearing.  Again, as with Kalas, we couldn't foresee what injuries Bakes would get and what it would force him into.  They were impact injuries that could happen to any signing at any time.  TK, being a long term muscular problem may make us more wary, but I don't think what happened to Bakes would, or indeed should do so.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

3 hours ago, headhunter said:

Is our Czech international available for any of the games before the window opens? What's the latest injury update or is there more to it?

If not then that means he's been out for 10 months and no one will buy him in January. There was a large outcry when Fam walked, by being OOC,  in the summer of 2021 - a £5.3M signing of whom our then CEO, Mark Ashton, famously said "we'll get our value on the pitch" after the Senegalese international would not sign a new deal.

The situation with Kalas is worse in the sense that the club will get nothing for the player who at £8.5M is THE record signing and who ,since he's been in the treatment room, has cost us a best estimate £1M in wages. Sadly another example of the profligacy of the club in the Ashton years.

Nahki too is OOC in the summer another high value acquisition but if he goes, good luck to him. He's been injury free and the model professional despite being frozen out by NP last season. As his strike partner in the U21s he helped Conway develop to the player he's become and is now a definite starter for me with 8 goals this campaign playing in his best position.

To me, it would make sense for the club to declare before the window opens whether fresh terms have been offered to any of the Summer 2023 OOC players - so far only HNM who is being sidelined for not signing!

Both will walk in the summer I should imagine, Nahki given a reasonable run of games in the right position will score and will attract suiters, and Kalas will not be offered a new contract, he's not a bad player but he's not the leader the defence needs his best period was with Adam Webster who was a leader, I cant see either of them staying as we will be trying to build forward.

[Steve Watts]

16 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Wells is now three years older, in his early thirties. His bargaining power is diminished solely due to age, so I would not be the least bit surprised for him to accept two years at 50% of the current wage. He is still a valuable member of the squad as a first teamer who will help young strikers to improve.

 

I would like to see a player coach role offered to Wells.  He put himself forward for u23 duty to help the kids and himself and one look at TC this season shows the impact he's had. With no transfer fee involved though and him proving that he can still cut it in this division, he may well seek one final payday before retiring.  With no fee, any Championship club would be able to put some of the transfer budget into his wages, so this may prove an issue for us in convincing him to stay.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

1 minute ago, Steve Watts said:

I would like to see a player coach role offered to Wells.  He put himself forward for u23 duty to help the kids and himself and one look at TC this season shows the impact he's had. With no transfer fee involved though and him proving that he can still cut it in this division, he may well seek one final payday before retiring.  With no fee, any Championship club would be able to put some of the transfer budget into his wages, so this may prove an issue for us in convincing him to stay.

He's only 32 I would think he see's a good 3-4 more years of playing before he retires, and he can still drop down the leagues if he needed to.

[Steve Watts]

2 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

He's only 32 I would think he see's a good 3-4 more years of playing before he retires, and he can still drop down the leagues if he needed to.

It depends what he sees as his priorities for the future after he retires.  This could be a good stepping stone for him if he sees a future in coaching.  I agree he could have a few more years and I'd like for at least one of those years to be with us.  I don't see him dropping down the leagues just yet (unless it's with us!).  I would certainly hope we could rival wages offered by league 1 clubs.

I guess at the end of the day, none of know what the club or player are thinking.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think this is the major question.

There is no doubt Kalas is an asset but, even without a need for us to cut costs post-COVID, it would be incredibly difficult for us to offer him a contract on the same terms unless we are 100% confident his fitness issues are sorted. And the fact Baker was a gamble which sadly did not pay off for us or him might even be a factor against us offering Kalas terms.  But, as you say, Kalas might find other clubs are unwilling to gamble on him at the same kind of wage level so he may need to accept a salary drop wherever he goes.

I think it will ultimately come down to pragmatism. I suspect the reason that Baker was re-signed in 2021 and Vyner was not offloaded this summer was a simple calculation that those decisions represented better value for money than any alternatives out there. I suspect the decision for Kalas will be based on the question of whether we can get a centre-back who - in terms of fitness, quality and wage - represents better value or not. If not then Kalas will be retained. 

Excellent point.  There was definitely a view from Nige (who bumped into a poster on here and told him), that him and Rennie had got to the bottom of his niggly back and hamstring issues.  I thought he was in excellent form last season, even when playing LB against the likes of Cardiff.  Those concussions were so sad.  It did look like they’d got to the root of his injury niggles on that evidence.  Baker’s contract was allegedly on less than half of his previous deal but incentives re appearances.  Gutted for Baker that he had to retire.  

46 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Two points re your excellent post;

I doubt very much any potential offer from us would be more than half what he’s on now, if he can get a better deal elsewhere than this after his last 12 months then good luck to him.

Secondly I wouldn’t have offered Baker another contract (my posts around the time show that) but it is quite possible for us to argue that we felt under Rennie we’d finally sorted his longstanding injury problems only for successive serious concussions to sadly result in his early retirement & no one could have predicted that.

I don’t think I’d have re-contracted Baker either but I understand why he did.

44 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Yes and we paid £8.5 million and many more millions on wages and are set to receive no return on that investment. 
 

I did not say he was a bad player, he is one of the best in the squad when fit. Same as Massengo.

Where had this extra £0.5m come from in posts this morning (not just you).  Although none of us know the exact fee, I thought OTIB had settled on £8m.

[CyderInACan]

Who needs Kalas to stay when we have King as an oven-ready CB option. . . 

[bcfcnick]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

I don't know.

I do however think you may have beaten NTTDS to the record for longest thread title.

It was a good effort but just lacked a decent reference to a railway timetable or two.

I think Kalas will depart if he recovers for the window along with Desilva, Bentley and Semenyo. Probably only Semenyo will command anything above a nominal fee. 

Times have changed in the transfer market but at least it will take a massive chunk off the wages costs and start the process of re-building from the basis of financial sustainability. Interestingly, none of the potential outgoings is in the first team at present.  The key factor will be the success of the recruitment from the flexibility that any outgoings allow for.  Brian Tinnion has done superbly with bringing along the academy players so we will see his influence in first-team recruitment this window. I am quietly confident it will be positive.

[JoeAman08]

2 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

Wells is now three years older, in his early thirties. His bargaining power is diminished solely due to age, so I would not be the least bit surprised for him to accept two years at 50% of the current wage. He is still a valuable member of the squad as a first teamer who will help young strikers to improve.

 

I hope so. Just saying think he is the most saleable of everyone out of contract because of his form and position imo. I’d have no problem giving him a new deal. Been a top pro

[CyderInACan]

1 hour ago, bcfcnick said:

Interestingly, none of the potential outgoings is in the first team at present. 

It's not purely about the Starting XI any more, though, is it? Disingenuous to suggest that Semenyo, in particular, is anything other than a "first teamer" 

[italian dave]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The Fam situation was very different imho.  We wanted him to stay, put a “very good, one of best contracts in City’s history” (quote Mark Ashton) on the table which he wouldn’t sign.  Fam denied it was that good!!  We did that whilst saying we couldn’t offer any other players a deal…and that for me created a real division in the squad, especially as Fam then went through the motions as soon as the Jan window ended.

Kalas injury update was “hoping he’d be around for the Xmas games” (paraphrased).

Also, there are a lot of conversations that happen before a contract is put in front of a player, pretty likely that the actual paperwork is only prepared when both parties are in agreement.  I’m sure there are discussions going on with lots of our players (CEO, Tins and Agent / Player).  Nige will, have input on who he wants to keep and budget implications of any discussions, e.g. if you want player X he’ll cost £x which means you might not have as much for player Y.

We are all in the dark, bar the usual whispers we hear.  Some players might even sign a pre-contract on Jan 1st,  e.g. Massengo.  Yep, we would all like to be kept in the picture but I’m not sure it’s that realistic…certainly not asking Nige.  One for Tins and Gould to answer.

Ashton, Fam, who to believe?! I know where my money is - not least because I can’t believe that in the midst of covid and all the financial implications that carried we’d have been making better offers than some of those pre-covid ones (Kalas himself for instance).

And I think the way that was handled not only created division and pissed off other players, it also pissed off Fam, who was put in an impossible position. Shades of how we messed up and lost Basso.

I’m sure you’re right about all those discussions, calculations, implications that the club is looking at. It’s all very one sided though, isn’t it: clubs have no loyalty to players if the calculations and implications don’t work out - yet we seem to expect players to have a loyalty beyond their contract. 

[ray savino]

Kalas may well have had niggling injuries, but can’t help thinking that he could well go this window. Think the club are hard at work trying to shift players on this window, namely Kalas, Massengo, Bentley, and possible Dasilva and Semenyo. Think they are desperate to get something back before they can walk for free and get a few fresh bodies in that might turn things around. Don’t think the club want to be faced with giving Pearson the heave-ho as I’m not sure they would know where to turn at the moment. FWIW, I do think that in broad terms, the stuff that Pearson has said about the club and it’s culture is absolutely bang on. However, although at our best we’ve looked pretty decent, but we haven’t shown it enough and results are crap. 

Think time is running out unless we can string some consistent results together. Rumours about Scott don’t surprise me. Really sad that we can’t ever buy enough time to keep our best young talents for longer, i.e. Reid, Kelly, etc. but that’s modern football and our place in the pecking order. So wouldn’t surprise me to see Scott or Semenyo go.

Must admit, the frustration of following this club never ceases, but cant help thinking that our patience is going to be tested for a lot longer yet. No denying the financial input of the owners over the years, but just feel we need fresh impetus and energy beyond the manager and added fresh drive at board level. The biggest signs of hope is that the academy may at long last be showing it’s potential. Could do with a real kick ass performance and win against WBA and cheer us all up!

 

[Guest]

Pure supposition on my part but Wells to an MLS team, and Kalas to run down his contract.

I would be surprised if Kalas was available for the Christmas New Year games.

[ray savino]

7 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

Pure supposition on my part but Wells to an MLS team, and Kalas to run down his contract.

I would be surprised if Kalas was available for the Christmas New Year games.

Yep. Just get the feeling that the club know whats going on here. Last chance for a decent football move for him, so can’t see him staying. Wells not sure. He genuinely seems to be more committed in his performances and interviews than he ver has. Maybe he’s realised he’s had to get his finger out to get a new contract with either us or elsewhere.

[Sleepy1968]

5 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

If not then Kalas will be retained. 

I think he'd like a say in it

 

52 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

Pure supposition on my part but Wells to an MLS team, and Kalas to run down his contract.

I would be surprised if Kalas was available for the Christmas New Year games.

To me "running down a contract" implies that a player is going through the motions and has no interest in re-signing having been offered a suitable deal. Kalas has always given his all when selected, is currently out injured, and not been offered a new contract (as far as we can tell).

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

I think he'd like a say in it

 

To me "running down a contract" implies that a player is going through the motions and has no interest in re-signing having been offered a suitable deal. Kalas has always given his all when selected, is currently out injured, and not been offered a new contract (as far as we can tell).

I’m not implying anything other than stating my opinion, until he proves his fitness it would be surprising if the club offered him anything.

If a fee is agreed with another club he will have to prove his fitness before a transfer takes place, that would appear unlikely at the moment.

I agree he gives 100% when on the pitch, he hasn’t been able to get on the pitch for any length of time for 10 months?
 

The time he has been injured is extraordinary in my opinion given his previous appearance record.

I just hope that whatever is wrong can be put right, but it has to be considered that the injury(s) are such that he won’t recover sufficiently to be at the peak fitness required.

I hope I’m being incredibly pessimistic here, we shall see.