Inheritance Tax

[Davefevs]

Copied from the sack Nige thread, but thought it worthy of its own thread.

Unfortunately it is gonna take longer to pay it off, that’s the sad fact about it all.

Heres all the players (non-Academy) Nige inherited:

25 players - cost us £45.150m - plus the wage bill increase that goes alongside it

12 released for nothing (OOC) ***Mariappa should say 0 and 0, not Loan and End

3 sold (at least 2 if not all 3 cost us to move them on) - earned us £0.200m

1 retired (sadly).

Basically £45m down the shitter!!!  That is harrowing imho!!

Of the 9 remaining players:

- Bentley, Dasilva, Kalas, Moore and Massengo might leave for nothing (OOC)

- Martin exercised his own option

- just Weimann and Wells have re-contracted (plus Baker who’s since retired, see above)

- Cundy and Bakinson had their options exercised

- Williams 18 months left

It is gonna take at least until this summer to see any semblance of normality return, and then you’re at the mercy of recruitment.

Those are the hard facts of the situation.  I don’t care if people are Nige In, Nige Out or Nige Shake-it-all-about, but this is the context.  Thank **** for the Academy.  This is what the new manager inherits if you want Nige out.  Fine if you do.

We signed players for too big a fee and for too high wages.  Until virtually all of those players are off the books or on current climate contracts we are in a mess.

[AppyDAZE]

 

[And Its Smith]

It will cost more to go down than to sack Pearson. Is he maximising what he can get from this squad?  Surely nobody thinks he is.  The previous mismanagement of the club is good context but the squad he has is better than he is showing.  Hopefully he can turn it around.  I would suggest he doesn’t keep trying the same thing and expecting different results 

[Davefevs]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

It will cost more to go down than to sack Pearson. Is he maximising what he can get from this squad?  Surely nobody thinks he is.  The previous mismanagement of the club is good context but the squad he has is better than he is showing.  Hopefully he can turn it around.  I would suggest he doesn’t keep trying the same thing and expecting different results 

I agree they are better than they’re showing, but not by too much.

[GrahamC]

I genuinely don’t know the answer, I think it is highly unlikely we would look outside the club for our next appointment & so am left thinking if it is Euell up next or even Andy King, that is some gamble.

I doubt he’ll survive if we lose the next 2 badly but what is obvious is we can’t go on like this, we either need to facilitate a minor shake up in the squad, by selling an asset (so Scott or Semenyo) & trying to move a couple of others (Martin, Klose) on or make a change at the top at that point.

Or do both.

[cidercity1987]

Increase the rate, reduce the Nil rate band, redistribute amongst all of the young

[tin]

32 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

It will cost more to go down than to sack Pearson. Is he maximising what he can get from this squad?  Surely nobody thinks he is.  The previous mismanagement of the club is good context but the squad he has is better than he is showing.  Hopefully he can turn it around.  I would suggest he doesn’t keep trying the same thing and expecting different results 

Relegation would cost more than sacking Pearson, but what’s the guarantee we stay up if he gets the boot? There is none and in all probability his sacking would make a bad situation worse, particularly when it’s likely we’d end up with someone like Euell in charge going on SL’s track record.

Edited December 26, 2022 by tin

[Roger Red Hat]

16 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

It will cost more to go down than to sack Pearson

What's the figures for sacking NP, employing someone else, and going down?

[And Its Smith]

Just now, Roger Red Hat said:

What's the figures for sacking NP, employing someone else, and going down?

That’s the most worstest 

[Cardy]

Consistently playing Weimann as a Ring Wing Back & King as a Centre Back are sackable offences on their own.

[spudski]

I get the general consensus from here, that many fans see our squad as a lower to mid table squad. When we were playing attractive football and scoring goals for fun early season...many thought we were capable of mid to play offs, if we could tighten our defence.

 That's with the squad NP inherited. And the few he's added or taken from academy.

 I've said this on numerous threads...but NP said that he thought this squad is capable of being around the play offs.

If NP thinks that, and the players are consistently losing games and now fighting relegation, how can we trust NPs judgement? 

He thinks they are capable...many fans think not. 

Who's right....

He sees them in training and knows what they are capable of. He's got years of experience.

So I'm saying NP knows better than us.

So why are we underachieving going by NPs views to our ability?

For me it's in the way we play, our set up and playing players out of position.

That's down to NP. 

These players are capable of better.

So the excuse of poor inheritance is being used too often to given NP an excuse.

Yes it's poor financially.

But our players are far better than what our results are.

They are underachieving. 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

Dave, you continue to portray a terrible situation. Pretty much EVERY other club in the division is in a similar situation. 

Gould claims we have a top 10 wage budget. We have paid fees for a few players.

We are close to FFP failure due to covid. Lots of other clubs in the same situation. 

IMO, and also in the view of Swiss Ramble etc, LJ had a lower wage bill but achieved top half twice. 

Mark Robins at Coventry. Gary Rowett at Millwall. Blackburn, QPR, Preston... 

We should be doing better.

[cidered abroad]

I don't know if the players are following instructions or doing it of their own volition, but we are playing so many passes sideways across the back three and so many passes backwards by the midfield. 

We are not putting pressure on the opposition and allowing opponents to press us and make breakaways. Our forwards are now relying on long, aerial passes and it isn't how we were doing it early in the season.

Continue like this will bring only one end to the season.

[Lack of Action Man]

35 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Dave, you continue to portray a terrible situation. Pretty much EVERY other club in the division is in a similar situation. 

Gould claims we have a top 10 wage budget. We have paid fees for a few players.

We are close to FFP failure due to covid. Lots of other clubs in the same situation. 

IMO, and also in the view of Swiss Ramble etc, LJ had a lower wage bill but achieved top half twice. 

Mark Robins at Coventry. Gary Rowett at Millwall. Blackburn, QPR, Preston... 

We should be doing better.

Summed up my thoughts quite nicely KITR.

I think as fans we all acknowledge the financial shitstorm, and accept that it hampers our maneuverability in the transfer market.

What I can't accept is the piss poor performances on the pitch, which surely any other manager with a bit of tactical know-how at this level would be able to improve upon.

Yes we have some crap players, but we also have some good players who are being dragged down to the standard of the crap ones by Pearson's god-awful negative tactics.

[Lack of Action Man]

24 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I don't know if the players are following instructions or doing it of their own volition, but we are playing so many passes sideways across the back three and so many passes backwards by the midfield. 

We are not putting pressure on the opposition and allowing opponents to press us and make breakaways. Our forwards are now relying on long, aerial passes and it isn't how we were doing it early in the season.

Continue like this will bring only one end to the season.

I got a bit bored of us being utterly pants in the second half so started counting our average number of touches before a pass is made, vs WBA.

WBA on average was 1-3 touches followed by a pass. We were about 4-5 touches.

WBA played quick and sharp football, we play slow and ponderous football.

[RedRock]

13 minutes ago, OddBallJim said:

I got a bit bored of us being utterly pants in the second half so started counting our average number of touches before a pass is made, vs WBA.

WBA on average was 1-3 touches followed by a pass. We were about 4-5 touches.

WBA played quick and sharp football, we play slow and ponderous football.

…and that’s the difference between the front-foot, aggressive, high-tempo modern game and the old style passive, possession one.

Basically, we’re England in disguise, but far, far worse. 

[Lack of Action Man]

Just now, RedRock said:

…and that’s the difference between the front-foot, aggressive, high-tempo modern game and the old style passive, possession one.

Basically, we’re England in disguise, but far, far worse. 

We also try to play out from the back far too often, when we clearly do not have the players equipped for that type of play. 

Naismith doesn't do it for me. I'm probably in the minority with that opinion though.

[BigAl&Toby]

3 hours ago, OddBallJim said:

We also try to play out from the back far too often, when we clearly do not have the players equipped for that type of play. 

Naismith doesn't do it for me. I'm probably in the minority with that opinion though.

No you’re not. There’s at least one other who thinks he’s shit. Me.

Oh hang on. Might be a minority of 2!

Naismith is useless and clueless. When Capn Dan and he are in charge across the back it’s painful.

Capn Dan plays it short to Naismith.

Naismith fannies about and then has a dribble. Naismith loses the ball on or about the halfway line. Ball gets played back in over Naismith and pressure is back on.

Repeat. Week after ******* week…..

And that was at the beginning of the season. Pointing it out then and shot down in flames.

Naismith was the answer. And look where we are now.

Hasn’t Steve done well?

[MC RISK77]

8 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Dave, you continue to portray a terrible situation. Pretty much EVERY other club in the division is in a similar situation. 

Gould claims we have a top 10 wage budget. We have paid fees for a few players.

We are close to FFP failure due to covid. Lots of other clubs in the same situation. 

IMO, and also in the view of Swiss Ramble etc, LJ had a lower wage bill but achieved top half twice. 

Mark Robins at Coventry. Gary Rowett at Millwall. Blackburn, QPR, Preston... 

We should be doing better.

Spot on

[old_eastender]

8 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

It will cost more to go down than to sack Pearson. Is he maximising what he can get from this squad?  Surely nobody thinks he is.  The previous mismanagement of the club is good context but the squad he has is better than he is showing.  Hopefully he can turn it around.  I would suggest he doesn’t keep trying the same thing and expecting different results 

 

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I agree they are better than they’re showing, but not by too much.

I'd settle for better than we are showing but not by too much, and the safe mid-table position that would bring. Trouble is NP is a stubborn mule, won't accept when he is wrong - playing King CB (although King did ok today, it cost us 3 pts v Stoke), wasting Weimann at RWB - are two obvious examples.

In the earlier part of the season, once we had finally ditched Martin from the starting line-up, we played some of the best football seen in years. We have the players to get back to that, but NP is not utilising them properly. My Dad used to say "there is none so blind as them that don't want to see", certainly applies to NP if he thinks watching yesterday the players "gave everything", some tried, others just went through the motions, fed-up I suspect with NP lack's of tactical nous, players being frozen out and others being played out of position. 

[Sir Geoff]

8 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said:

What's the figures for sacking NP, employing someone else, and going down?

About £9 million.

[Andy082005]

8 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Dave, you continue to portray a terrible situation. Pretty much EVERY other club in the division is in a similar situation. 

Gould claims we have a top 10 wage budget. We have paid fees for a few players.

We are close to FFP failure due to covid. Lots of other clubs in the same situation. 

IMO, and also in the view of Swiss Ramble etc, LJ had a lower wage bill but achieved top half twice. 

Mark Robins at Coventry. Gary Rowett at Millwall. Blackburn, QPR, Preston... 

We should be doing better.

Agree with all of this 

We are not far off from heading into free fall and there is no reason why we should be. We may not have a top 6 squad but I refuse to believe man for man, we have a poorer squad then those you mentioned 

It’s 7.30am the day after and I’m still trying to work out why Andy King played Centre half again, and why last seasons top scorer played right back most of the game . 
 

People are frightened to death to lose Pearson because even I have to admit, I have no idea who comes in behind him to save us. He is quite clearly in control of a lot more than the first team squad as the absolute jokers above him do not have a clue . 
 

There are huge comparisons to this situation and the one we found ourselves in 10 years ago. We look absolutely terrible. I genuinely don’t see us getting out of this mess at this moment in time 

[Edgy Red]

8 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Dave, you continue to portray a terrible situation. Pretty much EVERY other club in the division is in a similar situation. 

Gould claims we have a top 10 wage budget. We have paid fees for a few players.

We are close to FFP failure due to covid. Lots of other clubs in the same situation. 

IMO, and also in the view of Swiss Ramble etc, LJ had a lower wage bill but achieved top half twice. 

Mark Robins at Coventry. Gary Rowett at Millwall. Blackburn, QPR, Preston... 

We should be doing better.

Absolutely spot on... A managers job is to work with the players at his disposal (a large number of which are his own signings).

The FFP card has been used as a shield to protect him from day one and while i understand that finances are incredibly tight, that is the same for many clubs in the football league.

He has to be judged on the product on the pitch and sadly, we are a weak disorganised team that lacks physicality. He has had 2 years to put his stamp on things, but if anything, we look worse than when he joined.

His recent interviews and team selections indicate that his time may be coming to an end. I just hope that a new manager can instill some confidence and organisation to the group (quickly).

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, GrahamC said:

I genuinely don’t know the answer, I think it is highly unlikely we would look outside the club for our next appointment & so am left thinking if it is Euell up next or even Andy King, that is some gamble.

I doubt he’ll survive if we lose the next 2 badly but what is obvious is we can’t go on like this, we either need to facilitate a minor shake up in the squad, by selling an asset (so Scott or Semenyo) & trying to move a couple of others (Martin, Klose) on or make a change at the top at that point.

Or do both.

Agree with you, my feeling is that King is the anointed one, but that may not come to pass.

Rumour completely unsubstantiated is that Scott has been sold with a loan back agreed, that would provide some funds to buy perhaps two players.

Also unsubstantiated Martin to be released (probably with a pay off).

I think the question we need to ask ourselves is would an experienced manager take over, and would he improve things? 
 

There are bound to be some experienced managers out of work, so yes someone would take over, would they improve things? It would seem difficult not too.

[Dullmoan Tone]

9 hours ago, spudski said:

I've said this on numerous threads...but NP said that he thought this squad is capable of being around the play offs.

If NP thinks that, and the players are consistently losing games and now fighting relegation, how can we trust NPs judgement? 

I’m not convinced he meant it. The problem is he could hardly say anything else without causing uproar.

It’s clear he doesn’t mind upsetting the players, but telling the fans and most importantly The Lansdown’s we aren’t good enough would not be smart - he’s long enough in the tooth to know this.

OTIB keeps quoting this comment and yet the reality is we had a better than expected start, his judgement is compromised because of his desire to freeze out players (and play what’s left out of position at times) but I don’t believe for a second he thought we were capable of mounting a serious play off push - our defence was still leaking soft goals (just like last season) and no team outscores a crap defence !

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

21 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

I’m not convinced he meant it. The problem is he could hardly say anything else without causing uproar.

It’s clear he doesn’t mind upsetting the players, but telling the fans and most importantly The Lansdown’s we aren’t good enough would not be smart - he’s long enough in the tooth to know this.

OTIB keeps quoting this comment and yet the reality is we had a better than expected start, his judgement is compromised because of his desire to freeze out players (and play what’s left out of position at times) but I don’t believe for a second he thought we were capable of mounting a serious play off push - our defence was still leaking soft goals (just like last season) and no team outscores a crap defence !

Well he shouldn’t have said it then.

[GrahamC]

36 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

I’m not convinced he meant it. The problem is he could hardly say anything else without causing uproar.

It’s clear he doesn’t mind upsetting the players, but telling the fans and most importantly The Lansdown’s we aren’t good enough would not be smart - he’s long enough in the tooth to know this.

OTIB keeps quoting this comment and yet the reality is we had a better than expected start, his judgement is compromised because of his desire to freeze out players (and play what’s left out of position at times) but I don’t believe for a second he thought we were capable of mounting a serious play off push - our defence was still leaking soft goals (just like last season) and no team outscores a crap defence !

Nor me & in his defence if he’d said I think avoiding bottom six would be an achievement the same people moaning about it would have gone mental.

I do think we are at a crossroads & things will have to change (manager and/or up to 3 players) next month.

[exAtyeoMax]

10 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Nor me & in his defence if he’d said I think avoiding bottom six would be an achievement the same people moaning about it would have gone mental.

I do think we are at a crossroads & things will have to change (manager and/or up to 3 players) next month.

Especially to coincide with the new CEO possibly? 

[One Team]

11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

Copied from the sack Nige thread, but thought it worthy of its own thread.

Unfortunately it is gonna take longer to pay it off, that’s the sad fact about it all.

Heres all the players (non-Academy) Nige inherited:

25 players - cost us £45.150m - plus the wage bill increase that goes alongside it

12 released for nothing (OOC) ***Mariappa should say 0 and 0, not Loan and End

3 sold (at least 2 if not all 3 cost us to move them on) - earned us £0.200m

1 retired (sadly).

Basically £45m down the shitter!!!  That is harrowing imho!!

Of the 9 remaining players:

- Bentley, Dasilva, Kalas, Moore and Massengo might leave for nothing (OOC)

- Martin exercised his own option

- just Weimann and Wells have re-contracted (plus Baker who’s since retired, see above)

- Cundy and Bakinson had their options exercised

- Williams 18 months left

It is gonna take at least until this summer to see any semblance of normality return, and then you’re at the mercy of recruitment.

Those are the hard facts of the situation.  I don’t care if people are Nige In, Nige Out or Nige Shake-it-all-about, but this is the context.  Thank **** for the Academy.  This is what the new manager inherits if you want Nige out.  Fine if you do.

We signed players for too big a fee and for too high wages.  Until virtually all of those players are off the books or on current climate contracts we are in a mess.

Great post Fevs which highlights very well our situation. The Mark Ashton era continues to blight our club even now. 

I don’t believe that we’ve a top 6 or even top half squad, just ask yourself how many of our players were better than West Brom’s or would get in their starting 11. One or two at most? 

If Pearson goes whoever comes in (or most likely gets promoted) has these constraints and issues to deal with. Maybe they would do a better job, maybe they wouldn’t. 

To points elsewhere as much as I appreciate what SL has done in terms of infrastructure I’ve no faith he will make a good decision in terms of replacement, if that happens. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by One Team

[REDOXO]

19 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Well he shouldn’t have said it then.

I agree. He shouldn’t have said it if he didn’t think it was true, maybe he did though, who knows! Europa League in five years was LJs downfall, a far more idiotic statement, that lead directly to the spreadsheet at the top of the page!

I don’t agree with the statement pretty much every club is in this situation! Pretty much every club has financial issues unless they are getting/still getting parachute payments that’s for sure. However how many are unable to spend money due to being so close to FFP, having spent the above, that comparatively small amounts count?

The above is 100% the responsibility of the bloke who said my money my choice (what is clear is it really wasn’t his money, it was the clubs money as the club would suffer from it being flushed down the shitter, to paraphrase the OP), with LJ, MA, JL AND the idiot bunch of **** yes men board members all sucking from the idiots tit! 

This in itself has created the situation where, we are told with some evidence, that we must bring through our own to a much greater extent and sell to buy. Now I’m not an expert in a lot of things, but changing the strategy so massively is a major difference to many other clubs. 
 

You can point to many who have maintained a long term strategy of buy and build and then sell to ***** like Bristol City, Luton and Brentford among others immediately spring to mind. Their long term strategies are clear, ours was akin to Derby, Birmingham and others which was throw money at it and pray the **** we have in charge is up to the challenge. ******* Laughable. You now also add in to the situation the more laughable resignation of stop gap Gould (I don’t care who you are and what you think, was crap the first time) and the employment of yet to be defined (let me know if I have missed an appointment) new CEO to overlook this utter shitshow. 
 

However here we are actually implementing a pillar policy having thrown our advantages away due to the hubris, greed and sheer bloody incompetence of those mentioned. Kind of an 82 situation with money!

The question is can Pearson produce again what he has before and get the Lansdown family and the supporters out of the same crapper. I’m no longer sure! I want it to work with Pearson, but we are watching shit shows, with players that are unable to perform as a unit and are frightened that their place is gone once the inevitable sales of Scott Semenyo and now on the grapevine Conway have been completed.

Who is out there that would take this on? Answer loads of people, either externally or internally as staying up is the only aim! But are they better equipped with the man we have? I’m not sure either way BUT the greater issue is getting a new CEO who is able to operate unfettered and is not the sham schiester that is the hated Ashton and can hold it together coming after what ever **** wittery Gould comes up with in the next few weeks!