Dean Holden interview

[Never to the dark side]

https://theathletic.com/4067923/2023/01/08/dean-holden-charlton-manager/?source=weeklyemail&campaign=602288

[Edge1981]

54 minutes ago, Never to the dark side said:

https://theathletic.com/4067923/2023/01/08/dean-holden-charlton-manager/?source=weeklyemail&campaign=602288

Fancy pasting the article on here? Paywall preventing us from reading it

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Edge1981 said:

Fancy pasting the article on here? Paywall preventing us from reading it

It's quite long. The most relevant section is as follows:

Holden is sacked as Bristol City manager after six straight defeats. He’s been at the club since 2016. They are 13th in the Championship. He’d got the job having taken over as caretaker from Lee Johnson. With Holden as caretaker, Bristol City finished the season well.

“We started the next season strongly. I was nominated for two manager of the month awards and we were second at Christmas. Then the injuries hit – 17 of them. We dropped right off, as expected. I learned a lot in all my time at Bristol, a great working environment. I learned especially how to handle people and also the harsh realities of what can happen in football management.

“I had a video call with the owner a year after he sacked me, a really good chat. He actually said to me ‘I didn’t realise how good your win ratio was (at Bristol City), 45%.’ But losing that job burned me, I felt injustice and that sat with me for a long time. I’d manage in a different way now.”

Basically blames the injury crisis for derailing a good start to the season. Doesn't change my opinion of how things were going at that time.

[2015]

I don't think we were 2nd at Christmas though? Nice bloke and I wish him all the best at Charlton.

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's quite long. The most relevant section is as follows:

Holden is sacked as Bristol City manager after six straight defeats. He’s been at the club since 2016. They are 13th in the Championship. He’d got the job having taken over as caretaker from Lee Johnson. With Holden as caretaker, Bristol City finished the season well.

“We started the next season strongly. I was nominated for two manager of the month awards and we were second at Christmas. Then the injuries hit – 17 of them. We dropped right off, as expected. I learned a lot in all my time at Bristol, a great working environment. I learned especially how to handle people and also the harsh realities of what can happen in football management.

“I had a video call with the owner a year after he sacked me, a really good chat. He actually said to me ‘I didn’t realise how good your win ratio was (at Bristol City), 45%.’ But losing that job burned me, I felt injustice and that sat with me for a long time. I’d manage in a different way now.”

Basically blames the injury crisis for derailing a good start to the season. Doesn't change my opinion of how things were going at that time.

Yep, agree. I do think there is a point there in that Weimann was fundamental to us and his ACL injury made a huge difference, but we weren’t a good side, even in the early part of the season. My abiding memory in that “strong start” is holding on - Bentley somehow earning us a win at Forest, Martin scoring in 90 seconds at Cardiff. Even when we were winning, it seemed we were doing so by the skin of our teeth.

The nadir was the Huddersfield game when we won 2-1 bizarrely. I’ve never seen us deserve to win a game less.
 

DHs strategy appeared to be to chuck as many forwards on as possible and see what happened. Nice guy, seems a decent coach but as a manager sorely lacking and no “I didn’t know how good the win percentage was” will convince me otherwise.

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, Silvio Dante said:

My abiding memory in that “strong start” is holding on - Bentley somehow earning us a win at Forest, Martin scoring in 90 seconds at Cardiff. Even when we were winning, it seemed we were doing so by the skin of our teeth.

The nadir was the Huddersfield game when we won 2-1 bizarrely. I’ve never seen us deserve to win a game less.

Completely agree with all this.

I'd also add that the injury crisis was in part of our own making. Not just the medical team, but also the desire of the coaches to get players back playing asap. That sort of stuff does, in part, lie at Holden's feet.

As you say the strong start to that season was lucky rather than deserved. We'd have regressed regardless of injuries, and it was  right to get rid of the vestiges of the Johnson era (including Simpson and Downing) and start a fresh rebuild under a completely new team.

Win % be damned.

[View from the Dolman]

Deleted.

Edited January 15, 2023 by View from the Dolman
Wrong thread.

[ExiledAjax]

49 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I don't think we were 2nd at Christmas though? Nice bloke and I wish him all the best at Charlton.

Was more like 10th iirc.

[2015]

45 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Completely agree with all this.

I'd also add that the injury crisis was in part of our own making. Not just the medical team, but also the desire of the coaches to get players back playing asap. That sort of stuff does, in part, lie at Holden's feet.

As you say the strong start to that season was lucky rather than deserved. We'd have regressed regardless of injuries, and it was  right to get rid of the vestiges of the Johnson era (including Simpson and Downing) and start a fresh rebuild under a completely new team.

Win % be damned.

It was lucky. We were scraping results and Bentley was on top form (especially Forest away). We were only heading one way.

Joe Williams injury as an example - Holden brought him back from Injury in a game vs Cardiff in which we lost 2-0. He then decided to play him again 3 days later in the FA Cup when Williams picked up another injury. It was an absolutely ridiculous decision.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, 2015 said:

I don't think we were 2nd at Christmas though? Nice bloke and I wish him all the best at Charlton.

 

You're not wrong. We'd lost the three matches on the run up to Christmas, and we'd had a similar bad run throughout October. 

If memory serves, we might've been second for one game, very early in the season, when everyone's played so few games that the table's a bit of an irrelevance. 

[2015]

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

 

You're not wrong. We'd lost the three matches on the run up to Christmas, and we'd had a similar bad run throughout October. 

If memory serves, we might've been second for one game, very early in the season, when everyone's played so few games that the table's a bit of an irrelevance. 

iirc City and Reading had both won their first 4 games and after 6/7 games we were 2nd. We then went on a bit of a slide.

Thank god we won those first 4 league games that season. We'd have gone down.

[pl00peh91]

I think he’s a good bloke but he has massively exaggerated the extent of our good start and the extent of the injury problems here. Surprised at how little self responsibility he’s taking but I suppose it helps the narrative for the article!

[Midlands Robin]

On the 1st of Dec we we're third on goal difference from Bournemouth with them on 27 (plus 9) and us on 27 (plus 4). That's as high as we would get for the remainder of Hodlen's time at the club.

We were top after 3 games of that season with us winning 3 from 3 and did sit up and around the play off's for most of the time between then and early December but as the record shows below: We went from 27 points on the 1st of Dec to 30 points 3 1/2 weeks later.

Championship table on the 25th Dec 2020.

1	Norwich City	20	13	4	3	29	18	11	43
2	AFC Bournemouth	20	10	8	2	35	16	19	38
3	Swansea City	20	10	6	4	23	12	11	36
4	Brentford	20	9	8	3	31	18	13	35
5	Watford	20	9	7	4	23	15	8	34
6	Middlesbrough	20	9	6	5	24	15	9	33
7	Stoke City	20	9	6	5	25	20	5	33
8	Reading	20	10	3	7	30	26	4	33
9	Bristol City	20	9	3	8	20	21	-1	30
10	Cardiff City	20	8	5	7	26	20	6	29

[Vidal]

When he went it was up there with Mciness levels of horror. Had to go.

[2015]

1 minute ago, Vidal said:

When he went it was up there with Mciness levels of horror. Had to go.

Absolutely dire wasn't it? Couldn't string 2 passes together, no shots on target happened quite often come the end

[Vidal]

6 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Absolutely dire wasn't it? Couldn't string 2 passes together, no shots on target happened quite often come the end

We were getting over run time and time again and looked completely loss….at least Mciness had the excuse of Foster, Bates, Fontaine and Mcgivern 

[ExiledAjax]

43 minutes ago, 2015 said:

It was lucky. We were scraping results and Bentley was on top form (especially Forest away). We were only heading one way.

Joe Williams injury as an example - Holden brought him back from Injury in a game vs Cardiff in which we lost 2-0. He then decided to play him again 3 days later in the FA Cup when Williams picked up another injury. It was an absolutely ridiculous decision.

The writing was on the wall in the Forest game. 4th game of the season. Then the wheels started to wobble around about 12 games in. They properly started coming off at about game 17, and he was sacked after the 30th league game of that season. 

That 13 game spell from Rotherham away through to the Reading game that was his last was the worst football I have seen us play in all the 14 or so years that I've been paying attention. 

That Huddersfield home game is the textbook example that demonstrates that "the score is the only stat that matters" is utterly shortsighted bollocks. Yes it's key to determining who takes 3 points, but if you're talking about long term success the score in one game is useless.

But ultimately all of that would have pretty much happened regardless imo. Holden simply sat on the throne whilst the sun set on the Ashton and Johnson era. Events played out as they would do because they'd been set in motion years earlier. As Canute couldn't hold back the tide* so Holden couldn't hold back the march of inevitable decline.

*to the historical pedants - I know this myth is  probably apocryphal but it helps to illustrate the point.

Edited January 15, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Absolutely dire wasn't it? Couldn't string 2 passes together, no shots on target happened quite often come the end

No corners on occasions too. It was horrendous but the number of people on here who seem to have forgotten that and use his overall record as a stick to beat the current Manager with is astounding. Even the Owner has been taken in by the sounds of it.......although that doesn't surprise me one iota.

As someone said above the 2-1 win against Huddersfield was embarrassing in the extreme and the ONLY time in my 46 years of actively supporting Bristol City that I actually felt disgusted to walk away with the points. How can a win be a disgrace you might ask.....well watch that bastard again, properly, and come back to me.

[2015]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

The writing was on the wall in the Forest game. 4th game of the season. Then the wheels started to wobble around about 12 games in. They properly started coming off at about game 17, and he was sacked after the 30th league game of that season. 

That 13 game spell from Rotherham away through to the Reading game that was his last was the worst football I have seen us play in all the 14 or so years that I've been paying attention. 

That Huddersfield home game is the textbook example that demonstrates that "the score is the only stat that matters" is utterly shortsighted bollocks. Yes it's key to determining who takes 3 points, but if you're talking about long term success the score in one game is useless.

But ultimately all of that would have pretty much happened regardless imo. Holden simply say on the throne whilst the sun set on the Ashton and Johnson era. Events played out as they would do because they'd been set in motion years earlier. As Canute couldn't hold back the tide* so Holden couldn't hold back the march of inevitable decline.

*to the historical pedants - I know this myth is  probably apocryphal but it helps to illustrate the point.

Sums up my whole thoughts about the time under Holden basically. Some saying lately the football being played is the worst in 30 years have short memories.

My god we were absolutely horrendous for those last 15 matches under Holden. By far the worst team in the league in those 15 games. I haven't seen us play much worse than that spell

[Northern Red]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

The writing was on the wall in the Forest game. 4th game of the season. Then the wheels started to wobble around about 12 games in. They properly started coming off at about game 17, and he was sacked after the 30th league game of that season. 

That 13 game spell from Rotherham away through to the Reading game that was his last was the worst football I have seen us play in all the 14 or so years that I've been paying attention. 

That Huddersfield home game is the textbook example that demonstrates that "the score is the only stat that matters" is utterly shortsighted bollocks. Yes it's key to determining who takes 3 points, but if you're talking about long term success the score in one game is useless.

But ultimately all of that would have pretty much happened regardless imo. Holden simply say on the throne whilst the sun set on the Ashton and Johnson era. Events played out as they would do because they'd been set in motion years earlier. As Canute couldn't hold back the tide* so Holden couldn't hold back the march of inevitable decline.

*to the historical pedants - I know this myth is  probably apocryphal but it helps to illustrate the point.

Rotherham away followed by Millwall at home 3 days later stands out as some of the worst back to back performances I've ever seen from a City team.

[2015]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

As someone said above the 2-1 win against Huddersfield was embarrassing in the extreme and the ONLY time in my 46 years of actively supporting Bristol City that I actually felt disgusted to walk away with the points. How can a win be a disgrace you might ask.....well watch that bastard again, properly, and come back to me.

I have never in my time supporting City been appalled that we won a game. Huddersfield had something like 26 shots on goal to our 2 which we scored from. We got hammered, but won - so all was ok Typical football fans.

[Roe]

2nd at Christmas

It was this kind of delusion that caused us major problems that we're still only just recovering from now

[ExiledAjax]

9 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I have never in my time supporting City been appalled that we won a game. Huddersfield had something like 26 shots on goal to our 2 which we scored from. We got hammered, but won - so all was ok Typical football fans.

And it's relevant today because yesterday's win wasn't like that. Yesterday we won fair and square and deserved it. That's why I don't think yesterday was a false dawn like the Huddersfield game two years ago(ish) was.

Edited January 15, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Bris Red]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's quite long. The most relevant section is as follows:

Holden is sacked as Bristol City manager after six straight defeats. He’s been at the club since 2016. They are 13th in the Championship. He’d got the job having taken over as caretaker from Lee Johnson. With Holden as caretaker, Bristol City finished the season well.

“We started the next season strongly. I was nominated for two manager of the month awards and we were second at Christmas. Then the injuries hit – 17 of them. We dropped right off, as expected. I learned a lot in all my time at Bristol, a great working environment. I learned especially how to handle people and also the harsh realities of what can happen in football management.

“I had a video call with the owner a year after he sacked me, a really good chat. He actually said to me ‘I didn’t realise how good your win ratio was (at Bristol City), 45%.’ But losing that job burned me, I felt injustice and that sat with me for a long time. I’d manage in a different way now.”

Basically blames the injury crisis for derailing a good start to the season. Doesn't change my opinion of how things were going at that time.

I liked Dean Holden but he should never in a million years of been offered the job here. Can’t blame him of course for taking it though, I’m sure he had a healthy pay off and as he said has used the experience to better himself as a manager - fair play to him.

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, Bris Red said:

I liked Dean Holden but he should never in a million years of been offered the job here. Can’t blame him of course for taking it though, I’m sure he had a healthy pay off and as he said has used the experience to better himself as a manager - fair play to him.

I don't blame him for much. Some of the decisions around injuries and things like that yes, but I don't think he had much choice regarding general tactics and how we played. 

Him being given the job was like asking a plumber to fix your pipes and giving him a toothbrush and a stuffed squirrel as the tools to do it with.

[chinapig]

11 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I have never in my time supporting City been appalled that we won a game. Huddersfield had something like 26 shots on goal to our 2 which we scored from. We got hammered, but won - so all was ok Typical football fans.

Well, Kalas was pretty angry in his post match interview. He knew perfectly well we had been massively outplayed and got away with it. Said something along the lines of we can't go on playing like that.

When asked who would win the upcoming game (Derby away I think) he said the team that is coached better. Pretty revealing stuff!

[Alessandro]

Nice guy Holden, but there's rose tinted glasses and there's those comments.

Agree with all everyone has already pointed out about the facts.

Holden with some re-writing history at it's best!

[italian dave]

10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

And it's relevant today because yesterday's win wasn't like that. Yesterday we won fair and square and deserved it. That's why I don't think yesterday was a false dawn like the Huddersfield game two years ago(ish) was.

I agree yesterday was a good performance and a deserved win. 

My only reservation is that we’ve been here twice before in the past 2 years. Once last season, once earlier this, when we seemed to finally click, play some good stuff, and string together 3 or 4 results. Then the wheels fell off again!

I’ll judge whether it was a false dawn in a months time. Or just a repeat of the serial inconsistency that’s dogged us for 4 or 5 years now. 

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I agree yesterday was a good performance and a deserved win. 

My only reservation is that we’ve been here twice before in the past 2 years. Once last season, once earlier this, when we seemed to finally click, play some good stuff, and string together 3 or 4 results. Then the wheels fell off again!

I’ll judge whether it was a false dawn in a months time. Or just a repeat of the serial inconsistency that’s dogged us for 4 or 5 years now. 

So I should probably caveat my post - I'm not saying that we are off on a run of 10 wins and all our woes are over. Rather that I think we might get up to 1.3 PPG and a slight rise up the table.

If you want false dawn's yesterday then look no further than Rotherham.

[bearded_red]

Genuinely think the couple of months before he got sacked we were the worst I’ve ever seen us, even worse than during the relegations I’ve seen. Getting a corner was a moment worth celebrating let alone trying to score a goal.

Every week looked like a non league team playing a Premier League team in the third round of the cup.