Ships on Club badges...

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

Bristol, or at least merchant ships that sailed from here, was really only involved in the slave trade for around 15 years old n the early part of the 1700's.

That isn't correct, Slave ships used Bristol as a port for over 100 years from the late 1600's to the early 1800's.  Another problem with the view is that Bristol became incredibly wealthy from exploiting Sugar and Tobacco both the products of slave labour.

Most major Bristol families had fingers in the wealth generated from slaves, the Smyth family from Ashton Court owned plantations, Colstons from the slave trade and the Wills family from tobacco grown on slave plantations.

And this should all be about 'correcting' history not 'deleting' it.  As my O-Level history teacher often stated, "History is written by the victors, not those they oppressed."

[spudski]

2 hours ago, Hxj said:

That isn't correct, Slave ships used Bristol as a port for over 100 years from the late 1600's to the early 1800's.  Another problem with the view is that Bristol became incredibly wealthy from exploiting Sugar and Tobacco both the products of slave labour.

Most major Bristol families had fingers in the wealth generated from slaves, the Smyth family from Ashton Court owned plantations, Colstons from the slave trade and the Wills family from tobacco grown on slave plantations.

And this should all be about 'correcting' history not 'deleting' it.  As my O-Level history teacher often stated, "History is written by the victors, not those they oppressed."

I mentioned this in another post about history, when it came to being documented... It was written as you say... propaganda...and often exaggerated or untrue. Yet still taught as correct. 

I find the whole view on the past...and apologising for it and feeling like we should be ashamed as very odd. 

We live in a time that is awakened some what...we can't compare to the past. 

We can't get our heads around it...but slavery was legal and normal.

That's how people thought. 

We compare, because we have a complete view of the world. Back then they didn't. 

Let's bring football back into the context... Hartlepool are known as the monkey hangers, because a monkey was captured from a French ship...and the locals thought it was a  French man and hanged it. 

This is the type of intelligence we are dealing with. 

You can't compare. 

[Hxj]

21 minutes ago, spudski said:

I find the whole view on the past...and apologising for it and feeling like we should be ashamed as very odd. 

I agree completely, correction and recognition are entirely different from apologising.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Hxj

[Keepers Ball]

The Guardian.

Are you surprised?

[Keepers Ball]

3 hours ago, TheReds said:

Marvin Rees was happy to go along with the racial aspect of both of these live on GMB after the Colston statue story,, and Susanna Reid said the names "made my skin crawl" when she was at University here. Never said a word previously until it suited her though as far as I'm aware. I think the Bristolian weatherman was on there as well at the same time, and not one of them said these names were probably not associated with slavery and were all more than happy to say they were. Amazing how they were all happy to go along with it to millions of viewers though, and all to suit the narrative at the time. 

Susanna Reid comment was ridiculous and ignorant.

The places she named have no links to the Slave Trade

Black Boy Hill after the nickname of King Charles II, for his long dark hair being one

[Totterdown's Finest]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I mentioned this in another post about history, when it came to being documented... It was written as you say... propaganda...and often exaggerated or untrue. Yet still taught as correct. 

I find the whole view on the past...and apologising for it and feeling like we should be ashamed as very odd. 

We live in a time that is awakened some what...we can't compare to the past. 

We can't get our heads around it...but slavery was legal and normal.

That's how people thought. 

We compare, because we have a complete view of the world. Back then they didn't. 

Let's bring football back into the context... Hartlepool are known as the monkey hangers, because a monkey was captured from a French ship...and the locals thought it was a  French man and hanged it. 

This is the type of intelligence we are dealing with. 

You can't compare. 

There were many people- politicians, religious figures, ordinary folk-who did not think it was normal or moral at the time. Personally, for what it's worth, I can't see too much wrong with a ship on a badge. A statue of a slave trader, on the other hand...

[South Somerset Red]

To be honest Im shocked that neither of those clubs are called themchester yet

[Bristol Oil Services]

It's probably just me but:

Ships on club badges and whiskers on kittens,

Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens,

Brown paper envelopes tied up with string,

Etc, etc.

 

[spudski]

3 hours ago, Totterdown's Finest said:

There were many people- politicians, religious figures, ordinary folk-who did not think it was normal or moral at the time. Personally, for what it's worth, I can't see too much wrong with a ship on a badge. A statue of a slave trader, on the other hand...

Can I ask why you have a problem with Colston? Yes he was what he was at the time. But as I've pointed out in previous posts, there are numerous statues and such like around the world in place, glorifying them, who did far worse than Colston, yet we rock up as tourists and take photographs, pay for the privilege, enjoy the experience...typical Instagram photo...' here's me and my loved one inside the Rome Amphitheatre where they enslaved, killed, all for entertainment '  

Again...'here's me with my loved one photographed with the statue of a Caesar...who was worse than Hitler...isn't history amazing'

And this goes on around the world...tourist industries based on it. 

You can go down a whole rabbit hole with slavery... We are the tip of the iceberg. 

Imagine living in the States where Slavery was rife. The money and culture that came about in the deep south....even the music. Are you going to cancel the music that came from the cotton fields? 

Kinnel...the Stones might as well go drown themselves now if we are going to be so apologetic, as they've made a fortune from that. 

[Totterdown's Finest]

14 minutes ago, spudski said:

Can I ask why you have a problem with Colston? Yes he was what he was at the time. But as I've pointed out in previous posts, there are numerous statues and such like around the world in place, glorifying them, who did far worse than Colston, yet we rock up as tourists and take photographs, pay for the privilege, enjoy the experience...typical Instagram photo...' here's me and my loved one inside the Rome Amphitheatre where they enslaved, killed, all for entertainment '  

Again...'here's me with my loved one photographed with the statue of a Caesar...who was worse than Hitler...isn't history amazing'

And this goes on around the world...tourist industries based on it. 

You can go down a whole rabbit hole with slavery... We are the tip of the iceberg. 

Imagine living in the States where Slavery was rife. The money and culture that came about in the deep south....even the music. Are you going to cancel the music that came from the cotton fields? 

Kinnel...the Stones might as well go drown themselves now if we are going to be so apologetic, as they've made a fortune from that. 

A statue of a person literally celebrates that person. I don't think he's anyone worth celebrating.

And the Rolling Stones, as far as I'm aware, no longer play at least one of their songs that could be considered inappropriate in a contemporary context.

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Totterdown's Finest said:

A statue of a person literally celebrates that person. I don't think he's anyone worth celebrating.

And the Rolling Stones, as far as I'm aware, no longer play at least one of their songs that could be considered inappropriate in a contemporary context.

Yet everyone else I've mentioned and more is? 

The Stones music and many others, are based on the music that came out of the deep south and essentially the slave trade. A genre from the fields. Sung in churches and the music industry. Celebrated. 

[Totterdown's Finest]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yet everyone else I've mentioned and more is? 

The Stones music and many others, are based on the music that came out of the deep south and essentially the slave trade. A genre from the fields. Sung in churches and the music industry. Celebrated. 

Eh? I didn't say they were worthy of statues. If the local communities think statues of people with dubious pasts should be removed, that's for them to decide. 

And are you really drawing equivalence between the music slaves sang and a statue celebrating a slave-trader erected by the Victorians!?

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Totterdown's Finest said:

Eh? I didn't say they were worthy of statues. If the local communities think statues of people with dubious pasts should be removed, that's for them to decide. 

And are you really drawing equivalence between the music slaves sang and a statue celebrating a slave-trader erected by the Victorians!?

You are completely missing the bigger picture. 

So if every local community decided to rip down everything related to slavery, war, overpowering, taking advantage of others...there would be pretty much nothing less in the world. 

The whole world has been built on taking advantage of others. 

As for your last question...yes...think about it. Put yourself in the deep south of America...the culture, money etc that came from slavery. Just think about the links that have come from it. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by spudski

[Totterdown's Finest]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

You are completely missing the bigger picture. 

So if every local community decided to rip down everything related to slavery, war, overpowering,cracking advantage of others...there would be pretty much nothing less in the world. 

The whole world has been built on taking advantage of others. 

As for your last question...yes...think about it. Put yourself in the deep south of America...the culture, money etc that came from slavery. Just think about the links that have come from it. 

Mate, I think you're the one losing sight of the bigger picture. Colston's statue literally celebrated him. The War Memorials remember those who lost their lives. Holocaust memorials remind us all of the awfulness of that particular period of history. You need to consider the purpose and context of memorials. I wouldn't pull down Colston School, for the very reason it's a school, a place where good things happen. But it's right that the school have decided to change the name.

[Lewisdabaron]

Antifa don’t seem to have an issue with ships on their badge. 

[spudski]

10 minutes ago, Totterdown's Finest said:

Mate, I think you're the one losing sight of the bigger picture. Colston's statue literally celebrated him. The War Memorials remember those who lost their lives. Holocaust memorials remind us all of the awfulness of that particular period of history. You need to consider the purpose and context of memorials. I wouldn't pull down Colston School, for the very reason it's a school, a place where good things happen. But it's right that the school have decided to change the name.

I've not mentioned anything you've replied with. You've completely avoided everything I've put before you and changed the subject. 

As for Colston's statue...answer the question ..is he any worse than all the statues, buildings and monuments, tourists pay to visit and enjoy in the likes of Rome, Egypt, South America etc. Answer the question... don't deflect with something that hasn't been mentioned or even relevant. 

[Totterdown's Finest]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

I've not mentioned anything you've replied with. You've completely avoided everything I've put before you and changed the subject. 

As for Colston's statue...answer the question ..is he any worse than all the statues, buildings and monuments, tourists pay to visit and enjoy in the likes of Rome, Egypt, South America etc. Answer the question... don't deflect with something that hasn't been mentioned or even relevant. 

You literally mention, and I quote..."slavery, war, overpowering, taking advantage of others...". I stated. I think clearly, that you have to consider the context and purpose of a memorial if you want it to stay or be removed. As for question about whether Colston is "any worse than statues, buildings " etc., it totally depends which one(s) you are talking about

 

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Totterdown's Finest said:

You literally mention, and I quote..."slavery, war, overpowering, taking advantage of others...". I stated. I think clearly, that you have to consider the context and purpose of a memorial if you want it to stay or be removed. As for question about whether Colston is "any worse than statues, buildings " etc., it totally depends which one(s) you are talking about

 

Christ mate...you should take up Politics...that's a talent deflecting and avoiding the question in plain English. 

If explained in plain English...you've twisted it and mentioned the word ' memorials'. 

Please don't be a dick...you are looking stupid now. It's a simple question and I've explained in simple terms. 

[IAmNick]

39 minutes ago, spudski said:

I've not mentioned anything you've replied with. You've completely avoided everything I've put before you and changed the subject. 

As for Colston's statue...answer the question ..is he any worse than all the statues, buildings and monuments, tourists pay to visit and enjoy in the likes of Rome, Egypt, South America etc. Answer the question... don't deflect with something that hasn't been mentioned or even relevant. 

Why does it matter if he's better or worse (however you even measure that) than them?

It's once again the implication that if you can't do everything, you shouldn't do anything at all. It's nonsense.

The options aren't rip down literally everything with any even tangential relation to slavery (or whatever) or do nothing at all are they? Things are much more nuanced than that, obviously. Why do you keep going back to this black and white, divisive thinking?

Edited April 22, 2023 by IAmNick

[spudski]

13 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Why does it matter if he's better or worse (however you even measure that) than them?

It's once again the implication that if you can't do everything, you shouldn't do anything at all. It's nonsense.

The options aren't rip down literally everything with any even tangential relation to slavery (or whatever) or do nothing at all are they? Things are much more nuanced than that, obviously. Why do you keep going back to this black and white, divisive thinking?

Because it's that thinking that's being promoted to being normal. 

It's not divisive at all. It's common sense. 

Why do people ignore the obvious comparisons, and try to fit a ' nuance'. ? That's pathetic. 

What we do in Bristol in trying to erase our connection with slavery is pathetic. It's simply putting a plaster over the obvious. Erasing it, so we can't be reminded of it. 

It's the equivalent of a kid sticking his fingers in his ears, shutting his eyes and screaming, so as to not see the truth. 

[BCFC Rich]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Because it's that thinking that's being promoted to being normal. 

It's not divisive at all. It's common sense. 

Why do people ignore the obvious comparisons, and try to fit a ' nuance'. ? That's pathetic. 

What we do in Bristol in trying to erase our connection with slavery is pathetic. It's simply putting a plaster over the obvious. Erasing it, so we can't be reminded of it. 

It's the equivalent of a kid sticking his fingers in his ears, shutting his eyes and screaming, so as to not see the truth. 

It's not being erased though, is it? It's being contextualized. Rather than a statue glorifying a slave trader, it's now in a museum that puts his historical role into perspective. Not erased at all.

[Fuber]

On 21/04/2023 at 09:08, Robbored said:

So what’s next?  Change the name of Whiteladies Rd? surely that has racist implications…..not to mention BlackBoy Hill………….

Realise this is said in jest but I can't help myself.

Actually it's not - BlackBoy Hill, at least, is a nickname of Charles II.

[Lewisdabaron]

Just what the people of Bristol want their taxs spent on. The ego on a MP…

[Totterdown's Finest]

8 hours ago, spudski said:

Christ mate...you should take up Politics...that's a talent deflecting and avoiding the question in plain English. 

If explained in plain English...you've twisted it and mentioned the word ' memorials'. 

Please don't be a dick...you are looking stupid now. It's a simple question and I've explained in simple terms. 

I'll ignore your insults. If nuance is too tricky for you, so be it, but I think my point is clear. If a statue/memorial serves simply to commemorate the actions or life of a person who made their money on the back of the slave trade, I would take it down. If said memorial has a purpose beyond that (educational,  architectural significance, etc), I would probably expect it to remain.

The world isn't black and white and arguments around this are rarely simple, but I hope this clarifies it for you.

[Totterdown's Finest]

22 minutes ago, Lewisdabaron said:

Just what the people of Bristol want their taxs spent on. The ego on a MP…

I think a museum to slavery would be a good thing, for several different reasons. And Asher Craig isn't an MP.

[spudski]

36 minutes ago, Totterdown's Finest said:

I'll ignore your insults. If nuance is too tricky for you, so be it, but I think my point is clear. If a statue/memorial serves simply to commemorate the actions or life of a person who made their money on the back of the slave trade, I would take it down. If said memorial has a purpose beyond that (educational,  architectural significance, etc), I would probably expect it to remain.

The world isn't black and white and arguments around this are rarely simple, but I hope this clarifies it for you.

So in that respect, you would take down all the statues in the vicinity of the amphitheatre in Rome and such like historical places. 

Why not leave the statues up including Colston's with a plaque educating people of his past. 

As it stands...the Colston statue is on its side, on the floor of the museum, and the info attached to it, is more about the people and reason why they removed it. 

 

 

[Totterdown's Finest]

24 minutes ago, spudski said:

So in that respect, you would take down all the statues in the vicinity of the amphitheatre in Rome and such like historical places. 

Why not leave the statues up including Colston's with a plaque educating people of his past. 

As it stands...the Colston statue is on its side, on the floor of the museum, and the info attached to it, is more about the people and reason why they removed it. 

 

 

I'm not sure you grasp my point. I certainly wouldn't tear down the Coliseum  that would be blatantly ridiculous. As for the statues, if they glorified people with dubious pasts, had little other value and the people of Rome thought it better to remove them, so be it. That would be for them to decide.

As for the Colston statue, you say it now says more about "the reason it was removed", as if that's a bad thing! Like it or not, the life of Colston, and the role he played in the Transatlantic slave trade, is now much more widely known than it ever was before. As someone who values history and, in your words, doesn't want it "erased", you must think that's a positive outcome of all this.

[Red-Robbo]

23 hours ago, Calculus said:

Agree that ideally the initial process needs to get down to 'days or weeks'. One of the issues would be the small industry of lawyers engaging in lengthy appeals processes. Perhaps we need some sort or triage process so that those that aren't fleeing war or persecution can be returned straight away. Suspect.a change of law might be necessary, not to mention issues with ECHR.

It doesn't help that the rules around granting asylum status are complex, open to interpretation and have developed ad hoc.  As you say, a clearer "playbook" is needed to make assessment swifter.  I don't think it's lawyers halting the process often - not much money to be made off coves on £40 a week or the charities working in the area - but simply lack of Home Office staff (reduced by 2/3rds in 15 years, despite claims about 'ramping up border security') and no real will to tackle the issue.  People are making money, and political capital, out of it NOT being solved. 

[Selred]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

So in that respect, you would take down all the statues in the vicinity of the amphitheatre in Rome and such like historical places. 

Why not leave the statues up including Colston's with a plaque educating people of his past. 

As it stands...the Colston statue is on its side, on the floor of the museum, and the info attached to it, is more about the people and reason why they removed it. 

 

 

Were you calling for these plaques before the statue was taken down? 

[spudski]

24 minutes ago, Totterdown's Finest said:

I'm not sure you grasp my point. I certainly wouldn't tear down the Coliseum  that would be blatantly ridiculous. As for the statues, if they glorified people with dubious pasts, had little other value and the people of Rome thought it better to remove them, so be it. That would be for them to decide.

As for the Colston statue, you say it now says more about "the reason it was removed", as if that's a bad thing! Like it or not, the life of Colston, and the role he played in the Transatlantic slave trade, is now much more widely known than it ever was before. As someone who values history and, in your words, doesn't want it "erased", you must think that's a positive outcome of all this.

I have a different point of view to you. 

There was no democratic vote on removing the Colston Statue. It was removed by a mob. The people of Bristol had no say in it. 

I also think the people of Bristol and Rome and such like, shouldn't have a say in it. The world population has every right to see our history. 

Once we remove or destroy things...that's it...they are pretty much gone for good. What gives us the right to destroy things, just because our generation feels offended about history. 

Future generations won't have the choice once destroyed/ removed. 

As I've pointed out, whole tourist industries make £millions of pounds every year...people visiting and admiring statues, buildings all built by overpowered enslaved people. 

Total admiration. 

Yet we in Bristol want to hide our history. A city built partly on the money of the slave trade. We can't change that. It's our history. 

Statue taken down, names of institutions and buildings changed, road names changed. 

The hypocrisy is ridiculous. 

The positive outcome for me would to leave things in place and put plaques up explaining things. Educating. Learning.