Ships on Club badges...

[spudski]

14 minutes ago, Selred said:

Were you calling for these plaques before the statue was taken down? 

Tbh...it hadn't crossed my mind. But if the City asked whether to remove or put a plaque up, I'd have said put plaque up. 

[Calculus]

Much talk of removing symbols of regrettable history.

But then, we have a local organisation who glory in the deeds and consequences of piracy. Time for a ban and an apology to the victims of piracy maybe.

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Calculus said:

Much talk of removing symbols of regrettable history.

But then, we have a local organisation who glory in the deeds and consequences of piracy. Time for a ban and an apology to the victims of piracy maybe.

Britain pretty much acted as Pirates when ' we ruled the waves' and raped and pilleged our way around the World. That's how we built our Empire and became a nation of power and wealth. 

It's time we stopped apologising and being offended....and instead concentrated on building a better future. 

It's ironic how the Colston Hall became the Bristol Beacon...yet the Welsh have decided to change the name of the Brecon Beacons, because in part, and I quote... to show support for the Welsh language and because a fiery greenhouse gas-emitting beacon did not fit well with its ethos of creating a more sustainable, nature-rich area.

We'll have the Climate activists demanding they change the name again now

[View from the Dolman]

23 minutes ago, spudski said:

Tbh...it hadn't crossed my mind. But if the City asked whether to remove or put a plaque up, I'd have said put plaque up. 

There was a whole palaver about doing exactly that but the likely names objected describing it as vandalism and effectively encouraging people to vandalise any such plaque put in place.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-44951380

[Totterdown's Finest]

13 minutes ago, spudski said:

I have a different point of view to you. 

There was no democratic vote on removing the Colston Statue. It was removed by a mob. The people of Bristol had no say in it. 

I also think the people of Bristol and Rome and such like, shouldn't have a say in it. The world population has every right to see our history. 

Once we remove or destroy things...that's it...they are pretty much gone for good. What gives us the right to destroy things, just because our generation feels offended about history. 

Future generations won't have the choice once destroyed/ removed. 

As I've pointed out, whole tourist industries make £millions of pounds every year...people visiting and admiring statues, buildings all built by overpowered enslaved people. 

Total admiration. 

Yet we in Bristol want to hide our history. A city built partly on the money of the slave trade. We can't change that. It's our history. 

Statue taken down, names of institutions and buildings changed, road names changed. 

The hypocrisy is ridiculous. 

The positive outcome for me would to leave things in place and put plaques up explaining things. Educating. Learning. 

You lament the fact that the people of Bristol "had no say" in the removal of the statue, in your next paragraph you say they "shouldn't have a say in it"!?!

The statue is not "gone for good". It was put on display in a museum ( y' know, education), but with context and as part of a wider story.

Personally, I was glad it was pulled down. It was ridiculous to celebrate a "virtuous" (not my words) person in this way. I didn't feel strongly about the Colston Hall changing its name, to be honest, as it was a music venue, but the people responsible for it (council, trustees, whatever) decided to. They had good reasons: so be it. I'm certainly not going to lose my shit over the new name and I look forward to it reopening.

Tourists come to Bristol for lots of different reasons. I doubt many of them flocked from around the world to come and see a rather ordinary statue of an obscure 18th Century slave-trader.

And were not hiding our history. The council are literally planning to build a museum that tells that part of the City's story. There's one in Liverpool which is excellent. I went there to see it.

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

Britain pretty much acted as Pirates when ' we ruled the waves' and raped and pilleged our way around the World. That's how we built our Empire and became a nation of power and wealth. 

It's time we stopped apologising and being offended....and instead concentrated on building a better future. 

It's ironic how the Colston Hall became the Bristol Beacon...yet the Welsh have decided to change the name of the Brecon Beacons, because in part, and I quote... to show support for the Welsh language and because a fiery greenhouse gas-emitting beacon did not fit well with its ethos of creating a more sustainable, nature-rich area.

We'll have the Climate activists demanding they change the name again now

 

To be fair, the hills were always called Bannau Brycheiniog, so they haven't renamed it, they've simply decided, as with Snowdonia, that the national park will be officially given its original Welsh name, rather than its newer English one.  The signs will still be bilingual and feature Brecon Beacons as the English name for the region.

[spudski]

14 minutes ago, Totterdown's Finest said:

You lament the fact that the people of Bristol "had no say" in the removal of the statue, in your next paragraph you say they "shouldn't have a say in it"!?!

The statue is not "gone for good". It was put on display in a museum ( y' know, education), but with context and as part of a wider story.

Personally, I was glad it was pulled down. It was ridiculous to celebrate a "virtuous" (not my words) person in this way. I didn't feel strongly about the Colston Hall changing its name, to be honest, as it was a music venue, but the people responsible for it (council, trustees, whatever) decided to. They had good reasons: so be it. I'm certainly not going to lose my shit over the new name and I look forward to it reopening.

Tourists come to Bristol for lots of different reasons. I doubt many of them flocked from around the world to come and see a rather ordinary statue of an obscure 18th Century slave-trader.

And were not hiding our history. The council are literally planning to build a museum that tells that part of the City's story. There's one in Liverpool which is excellent. I went there to see it.

The statue was raised to celebrate the good things he did for Bristol. 

Yes he made dirty money from the slave trade...but he made good use of that money for the benefit of the people. It wasn't put up to glorify his involvement in the slave trade. 

It was put up in the same way other statues have been put up around the world...glorifying people that did good for their nation or people...using money or slaves from overpowered nation's. There is no difference. 

 

[Red Skin]

On 21/04/2023 at 11:28, spudski said:

It's obviously a leading article. It has no proof the ships were used in the slave trade, but has now put the idea in people's heads that they may have been.

 

How'd the lyrics go....

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves!

Britons never, never, never will be slaves.

There may not be a direct link to to slavery when this was written, but whoever 'ruled the sea' dominates trade.  And unfortunately at one point in history slaves were 'commodity' of that trade when the Royal Navy did dominant.  Whoever 'ruled the waves' would have traded in slaves at that time.  It's an uncomfortable truth for many when this is pointed out.   

I reckon we are of a similar age judging from your posts and I was certainly not taught anything about the slave trade when I was at school.  Maybe just a different curriculum?  I learnt more about slavery from the TV series Roots than in any history lesson.  

[spudski]

18 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

To be fair, the hills were always called Bannau Brycheiniog, so they haven't renamed it, they've simply decided, as with Snowdonia, that the national park will be officially given its original Welsh name, rather than its newer English one.  The signs will still be bilingual and feature Brecon Beacons as the English name for the region.

I know that RR...but they spent two years and a think tank company using public money to re name it. The amount of money in rebranding and resigning will cost a fortune. Better spent elsewhere. 

Let's face it...and even the authorities agree, people will still call it the Brecon Beacons. So it's a complete waste of time and money imo. 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Red Skin said:

 

How'd the lyrics go....

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves!

Britons never, never, never will be slaves.

There may not be a direct link to to slavery when this was written, but whoever 'ruled the sea' dominates trade.  And unfortunately at one point in history slaves were 'commodity' of that trade when the Royal Navy did dominant.  Whoever 'ruled the waves' would have traded in slaves at that time.  It's an uncomfortable truth for many when this is pointed out.   

I reckon we are of a similar age judging from your posts and I was certainly not taught anything about the slave trade when I was at school.  Maybe just a different curriculum?  I learnt more about slavery from the TV series Roots than in any history lesson.  

We learnt about it in Geography rather than History oddly. We even had a school trip to Bristol centre and discussion on the subject. I remember vividly the horror of the drawings onf the slaves led out like sardines in the ships. 

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

I know that RR...but they spent two years and a think tank company using public money to re name it. The amount of money in rebranding and resigning will cost a fortune. Better spent elsewhere. 

Let's face it...and even the authorities agree, people will still call it the Brecon Beacons. So it's a complete waste of time and money imo. 

Unless they are Welsh speaking, which a lot of communities in that area are. WE will continue to call it the Brecon Beacons, locals won't, hence the policy. 

Still, got to love those Welsh signs. We had a holiday in the Cambrian Mountains last year and got so used to seeing signs saying Araf ("slow") that me and the missus now use it if we think one of us is driving too fast. You have to deliver the word in the style of a dog barking. 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

Unless they are Welsh speaking, which a lot of communities in that area are. WE will continue to call it the Brecon Beacons, locals won't, hence the policy. 

Still, got to love those Welsh signs. We had a holiday in the Cambrian Mountains last year and got so used to seeing signs saying Araf ("slow") that me and the missus now use it if we think one of us is driving too fast. You have to deliver the word in the style of a dog barking. 

Brilliant

[Totterdown's Finest]

32 minutes ago, spudski said:

The statue was raised to celebrate the good things he did for Bristol. 

Yes he made dirty money from the slave trade...but he made good use of that money for the benefit of the people. It wasn't put up to glorify his involvement in the slave trade. 

It was put up in the same way other statues have been put up around the world...glorifying people that did good for their nation or people...using money or slaves from overpowered nation's. There is no difference. 

 

My friend, if you weigh up his considerable charitable donations (which were far from universal and targetted to support his own conservatjve political and religious  views) against the enslavement, death and torture of those from whose misery he benefited, and, on balance. still think he deserves a statue, there really is something wrong with you.

 

[Jim Davey]

won't be allowed to wear my Blue peter badge anymore then.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Totterdown's Finest said:

My friend, if you weigh up his considerable charitable donations (which were far from universal and targetted to support his own conservatjve political and religious  views) against the enslavement, death and torture of those from whose misery he benefited, and, on balance. still think he deserves a statue, there really is something wrong with you.

 

I don't think he deserves a statue now perse...however... I don't believe in removing historical statues because of past misdemeanors. I'd prefer a plaque offering an historical context. 

And if it's money you are worried about...look at the millions of £££s in today's money, paid to slave owners by the Government, when they gave them up in the UK. 

The biggest ever borrowing to pay them. 20% of our whole economy. With interest. 

We only finished paying for that debt in 2015. 

Complete madness. 

Over 3000 beneficiary's. 

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Jim Davey said:

won't be allowed to wear my Blue peter badge anymore then.

 I've got one of those as well! Never realised I was supporting the slave trade.  

[Jim Davey]

8 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 I've got one of those as well! Never realised I was supporting the slave trade.  

I hang my head in shame and  apologise for any offence I may of caused  to anyone back in the 1970's .

Edited April 23, 2023 by Jim Davey

[Red-Robbo]

7 minutes ago, Jim Davey said:

I hang my head in shame and  apologise for any offence I may of caused  to anyone back in the 1970's .

 

I blame John Noakes. 

[Totterdown's Finest]

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

I don't think he deserves a statue now perse...however... I don't believe in removing historical statues because of past misdemeanors. I'd prefer a plaque offering an historical context. 

And if it's money you are worried about...look at the millions of £££s in today's money, paid to slave owners by the Government, when they gave them up in the UK. 

The biggest ever borrowing to pay them. 20% of our whole economy. With interest. 

We only finished paying for that debt in 2015. 

Complete madness. 

Over 3000 beneficiary's. 

I accept you don't want statues removed and can understand that point. Obviously, I don't agree, (as I think I've made clear!), and also understand that you wouldn't want support one being created now. In fact, I can't believe any rational, reasonable person would!

We certainly agree about the atrocity of taxpayers compensating, after abolition, those who benefited from the slave trade. It's appalling, and symptomatic of the ridiculous way we are beholden to the rich and powerful.  In fact there remains a very strong case for reparations to be sought ( voluntarily or through the courts) from the families of those who benefitted, and continue to benefit, from the slave trade.

[spudski]

20 minutes ago, Totterdown's Finest said:

I accept you don't want statues removed and can understand that point. Obviously, I don't agree, (as I think I've made clear!), and also understand that you wouldn't want support one being created now. In fact, I can't believe any rational, reasonable person would!

We certainly agree about the atrocity of taxpayers compensating, after abolition, those who benefited from the slave trade. It's appalling, and symptomatic of the ridiculous way we are beholden to the rich and powerful.  In fact there remains a very strong case for reparations to be sought ( voluntarily or through the courts) from the families of those who benefitted, and continue to benefit, from the slave trade.

We can agree. 

[Dr Balls]

14 minutes ago, spudski said:

I don't think he deserves a statue now perse...however... I don't believe in removing historical statues because of past misdemeanors. I'd prefer a plaque offering an historical context. 

And if it's money you are worried about...look at the millions of £££s in today's money, paid to slave owners by the Government, when they gave them up in the UK. 

The biggest ever borrowing to pay them. 20% of our whole economy. With interest. 

We only finished paying for that debt in 2015. 

Complete madness. 

Over 3000 beneficiary's. 

The other issue with the Colston Statue is that it was political at the time it was erected in 1895. It wasn’t erected shortly after he died but nearly 200 years later. It was in part done to promote “The Empire” and to celebrate a certain class of Bristolian, and not the masses that’s for sure. A plaque had been completed in 2019 to go onto the plinth to explain more about Colston, his time, and the legacies both good and bad, but thanks to dithering by Mayor Marvin it never got put up, before the statue itself was pulled down in 2020.

I don’t have a problem with the Colston statue being in the M Shed. It’s probably the best place for it. I have been and seen it as well and the explainers are reasonable. But Colston needs to be seen as of his time as well. In the same 17th Century, Barbary Pirates from North Africa were raiding the South West coast and stealing women to take back home as slaves and concubines. Coastal villages in Devon and Cornwall lived in fear of being raided. Slavery and piracy were part of a fairly unpleasant time.

The issue for us in this country now is that much of the wealth we see around us did come from the exploitation of others, and that slavery didn’t end just because it was banned by the U.K. Parliament 200 years ago. The Americans had a civil war over the issue and before it was stopped in the South. So much of the wealth of places like Manchester was made from slave labour picking the cotton up until 1865. Not that those working in the dark satanic mills had it a lot better either by current standards with child labour and awful working conditions, pay etc.

The important thing now is that we appreciate how exploitation and slavery still exist in large parts of the globe, whether it’s people trafficking into this country, and how we treat them, or it’s sweat shops in Asia with minimal pay and potentially child labour producing cheap clothes for those of us in the West, thanks to the “benefits” of globalisation. If asking potential awkward and uncomfortable questions about our past raises people’s awareness of the injustices happening now, then that’s a good thing. If all it leads to is people shouting at each other as part of some conflated “culture wars” then that’s no use to anyone except the politicians who benefit from a “divide and rule” approach.

As for the ships on the badges of the Manchester clubs, I would leave that for those involved with clubs to decide what they want to do. Clubs often change their crests and emblems as we well know. And on a historical note for those getting wound up about it, the City of Bristol coat of arms with a ship sailing out from the castle predates the involvement of some from the city in the slave trade by around 2-3 centuries, so there is no need to apologise or replace it in my view.

[spudski]

20 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

The other issue with the Colston Statue is that it was political at the time it was erected in 1895. It wasn’t erected shortly after he died but nearly 200 years later. It was in part done to promote “The Empire” and to celebrate a certain class of Bristolian, and not the masses that’s for sure. A plaque had been completed in 2019 to go onto the plinth to explain more about Colston, his time, and the legacies both good and bad, but thanks to dithering by Mayor Marvin it never got put up, before the statue itself was pulled down in 2020.

I don’t have a problem with the Colston statue being in the M Shed. It’s probably the best place for it. I have been and seen it as well and the explainers are reasonable. But Colston needs to be seen as of his time as well. In the same 17th Century, Barbary Pirates from North Africa were raiding the South West coast and stealing women to take back home as slaves and concubines. Coastal villages in Devon and Cornwall lived in fear of being raided. Slavery and piracy were part of a fairly unpleasant time.

The issue for us in this country now is that much of the wealth we see around us did come from the exploitation of others, and that slavery didn’t end just because it was banned by the U.K. Parliament 200 years ago. The Americans had a civil war over the issue and before it was stopped in the South. So much of the wealth of places like Manchester was made from slave labour picking the cotton up until 1865. Not that those working in the dark satanic mills had it a lot better either by current standards with child labour and awful working conditions, pay etc.

The important thing now is that we appreciate how exploitation and slavery still exist in large parts of the globe, whether it’s people trafficking into this country, and how we treat them, or it’s sweat shops in Asia with minimal pay and potentially child labour producing cheap clothes for those of us in the West, thanks to the “benefits” of globalisation. If asking potential awkward and uncomfortable questions about our past raises people’s awareness of the injustices happening now, then that’s a good thing. If all it leads to is people shouting at each other as part of some conflated “culture wars” then that’s no use to anyone except the politicians who benefit from a “divide and rule” approach.

As for the ships on the badges of the Manchester clubs, I would leave that for those involved with clubs to decide what they want to do. Clubs often change their crests and emblems as we well know. And on a historical note for those getting wound up about it, the City of Bristol coat of arms with a ship sailing out from the castle predates the involvement of some from the city in the slave trade by around 2-3 centuries, so there is no need to apologise or replace it in my view.

It's exactly that...and pretty much covered in my posts in this thread. So it's nice to feel I'm not the only one seeing it that way.

 

[BCFC Rich]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

I don't think he deserves a statue now perse...however... I don't believe in removing historical statues because of past misdemeanors. I'd prefer a plaque offering an historical context. 

 

A plaque was pushed for and proposed multiple times there was even a phase when an unofficial one was regularly put up and then taken down: 

It was successfully eventually agreed there should be a plaque, but the council of merchant ventures caused lots of problems with the wording they wanted, and it took over a year to get the text agreed, then when it was thrown out by Mayor Ress for being to diluted by the merchant ventures interference. His office said it would be redone but it then didn't do anything about it. So the plaque was the plan, was agreed 3 1/2 years before the statue was pulled down, but never actually added. 

[spudski]

1 hour ago, BCFC Rich said:

A plaque was pushed for and proposed multiple times there was even a phase when an unofficial one was regularly put up and then taken down: 

It was successfully eventually agreed there should be a plaque, but the council of merchant ventures caused lots of problems with the wording they wanted, and it took over a year to get the text agreed, then when it was thrown out by Mayor Ress for being to diluted by the merchant ventures interference. His office said it would be redone but it then didn't do anything about it. So the plaque was the plan, was agreed 3 1/2 years before the statue was pulled down, but never actually added. 

Merchant Venturers...now that's a whole new can of worms. 

[Red Skin]

8 hours ago, spudski said:

We learnt about it in Geography rather than History oddly. We even had a school trip to Bristol centre and discussion on the subject. I remember vividly the horror of the drawings onf the slaves led out like sardines in the ships. 

I wasn't raised in Bristol so nothing about slavery in my geography classes either.   We didn't learn anything about the brutal side of British Colonialism in class though.  Personally, I think it's important that this is taught. 

[Trueredsupporter]

The West Africa squadron sailed in ships. Now there is a history.

[Clutton Caveman]

On 22/04/2023 at 12:28, spudski said:

Personally I think the whole asylum process needs to change throughout the world. 

The amount of people being displaced every year is rising and predicted to do so. 

South Americans were some of the highest amount of applications to Europe in the last few months. 

It's simply unsustainable long term, to have so many heading to Europe, especially when there are other countries doing very little to take people in. 

I look at Sweden, which has taken the most people...and the negative affect its had on the country in a very short time. 

The number of people in Sweden born abroad has doubled in the last two decades to 2 million, or a fifth of the population.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-pm-says-integration-immigrants-has-failed-fueled-gang-crime-2022-04-28/

We are purely looking short term. We should be looking long term. 

Some really good info on here. 

https://www.nrc.no/shorthand/fr/a-few-countries-take-responsibility-for-most-of-the-worlds-refugees/index.html

For me any person who passes through several European countries to get to UK whilst paying thousands to traffickers are not refugees.

[Rebounder]

On 23/04/2023 at 07:59, Lewisdabaron said:

Just what the people of Bristol want their taxs spent on. The ego on a MP…

Asher is a decent person from my interactions with her. 

Are you against Museums in general? Something that really adds to a City and attracts people? 

Strange take really. 

[spudski]

24 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

For me any person who passes through several European countries to get to UK whilst paying thousands to traffickers are not refugees.

I tend to agree. 

Hence why I think the whole asylum system world wide needs to change. 

If you are in fear for your life...it makes sense to declare yourself an asylum seeker at the next safest border. 

Obviously there are countries that will have borders that receive more asylum seekers than others, due to their proximity to waring countries. 

This is where Governments would have to work together. To go through procedures then distribute accordingly. 

I don't think it's fair that asylum seekers choose where they want to live. There are plenty of people that would like to live in other countries, but don't tick boxes and qualify to live and work there. Even if they have money, qualifications and experience to offer a country. But if your country goes to war...you can choose to leave and claim asylum wherever you want. 

This is why so many illegal immigrants try to use the system to their advantage. 

The system is broke.