Liam Fontaine vs Zac Vyner

[beaverface]

Been toying with this thought recently, trying to figure out if Nigel Person and the coaching staff are responsible with the main reason for Zac Vyner's turnaround in performances, and whether it's down to really hard work by them on the training field to get Zac improved as a player? Earlier in the season, NP made a comment along the lines of "these are the players at our disposal and we need to work with them".

I counter argue this with the Liam Fontaine situation where he was massively going through a crisis of confidence and Derrick McInnes (I think) was constantly picking him to make mistake after mistake for successive games. Did the coaching staff at the time recognise that Liam needed additional specialist training, or did they just set up training the same way, day-in day-out in the hope that Liam would come through it?

Basically, is the difference due to the coaching that each player was getting, or something else fundamentally different?

I'd like to think that as a set of coaches, Bristol City at the moment have some very talented staff that know the limitations of the players and work hard to address those weaknesses.

[Sir Geoff]

Surely a combination of good coaching and self determination from the player.

Really wish Zak would stop hitting 60 yard diagonal Hoddle / Hollywood passes. Put us under real pressure for a couple of minutes when one went astray (yet again) yesterday.

[RedRoss]

Think your trying to work out a question you can't possibly answer, both cases are completely independent of each other.

It could be a mixture of better coaching or Vyner himself or its just clicked. The only person who could answer this is Zak.

Going from his interview after getting his award recently, he said it was due to him 'growing up' and been able to express himself in a role that suits him. I think from this the consistency in being played at CB has worked wonders for his confidence and he and us are seeing the results. Credit to him and Nigel for having the confidence to play him.

My personal opinion is that he wasn't physical enough to play centre back before the last couple of seasons and thats why he's bounced around between midfield and RB because he had the ability but now has the physicality to play in his proper position.

Whatever it is he's done really well and hope it continues!

 

[GrahamC]

Reckon it’s a combination of the player himself, you don’t get to make it as a pro unless you can ignore the haters & Curtis Fleming, myself.

He coaches the defence & the improvement has been stark, far better as a unit re set pieces etc.

Delighted for Zak, he appears a genuinely nice bloke & as the players’ vote showed, popular too.

[beaverface]

8 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Think your trying to work out a question you can't possibly answer, both cases are completely independent of each other.

It could be a mixture of better coaching or Vyner himself or its just clicked. The only person who could answer this is Zak.

Going from his interview after getting his award recently, he said it was due to him 'growing up' and been able to express himself in a role that suits him. I think from this the consistency in being played at CB has worked wonders for his confidence and he and us are seeing the results. Credit to him and Nigel for having the confidence to play him.

My personal opinion is that he wasn't physical enough to play centre back before the last couple of seasons and thats why he's bounced around between midfield and RB because he had the ability but now has the physicality to play in his proper position.

Whatever it is he's done really well and hope it continues!

 

Can't argue with that.

In the past he's been moved around from RB, to CDM, to CD of a back three and back four, playing as the left or right CD.

Consistency in his position I think has helped, and I wonder if the coaches at City have worked with him extra hard in one position so that he's now excelling?

Looking at him over the last few games, he's really looking a Rolls Royce style of player. He moves very elegantly, with pace and strength.

[Coin-op]

50 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Surely a combination of good coaching and self determination from the player.

Really wish Zak would stop hitting 60 yard diagonal Hoddle / Hollywood passes. Put us under real pressure for a couple of minutes when one went astray (yet again) yesterday.

I disagree and love his diagonal 60 yard passes. When they work, they work really well. 

[Littlesh*t]

I was a massive fan of Fontaine but didn't his dip in form all coincide with becoming captain? Which I am guessing from memory may have been because Carey was out? Retired? Could be that he just needed a leader next to him yo bring the best out of him. 

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, beaverface said:

Been toying with this thought recently, trying to figure out if Nigel Person and the coaching staff are responsible with the main reason for Zac Vyner's turnaround in performances, and whether it's down to really hard work by them on the training field to get Zac improved as a player? Earlier in the season, NP made a comment along the lines of "these are the players at our disposal and we need to work with them".

I counter argue this with the Liam Fontaine situation where he was massively going through a crisis of confidence and Derrick McInnes (I think) was constantly picking him to make mistake after mistake for successive games. Did the coaching staff at the time recognise that Liam needed additional specialist training, or did they just set up training the same way, day-in day-out in the hope that Liam would come through it?

Basically, is the difference due to the coaching that each player was getting, or something else fundamentally different?

I'd like to think that as a set of coaches, Bristol City at the moment have some very talented staff that know the limitations of the players and work hard to address those weaknesses.

 

Liam's play seemed to go to pieces after he failed that medical to go to Southampton.  Psychologically, you can see how this would be a crushing blow: suddenly your dreams and aspirations are quashed - I seem to remember Saints were in a promotion season; secondly, although you've been playing week-in-week-out you've been told you're unfit and possibly have some as-yet-to-manifest itself career-limiting problem.

At the time, the attitude of most fans - and the club it seems - was "Oh great, he's still with us", but, as you say, if we'd considered the man a bit more, perhaps a break from the first team and careful re-motivation would've been more sensible.

[SecretSam]

I think a lot of credit to Zac himself, for taking on board advice, and really moving on as a player. Bit like Bobby Reid all those years ago, at the start of the season, he was one that many would happily have moved on, yet he's been been outstanding.

[chinapig]

In his press conference last week Nigel gave all the credit to Zak. Which apart from anything else is good man management. Some other managers and coaches might claim the credit for themselves.

[grifty]

I think Zak has taken some time to look at his strengths and weaknesses and adapt his game to these.

He’s not a physical, arial dominant defender and I think a lot of his errors in the past have been from him trying out muscle someone stronger or try to beat someone in the air he won’t.

Ive seen a lot more of him using his footballing brain to anticipate passes and nip in front of the attacker, using his body to lean into attackers to allow them to win the header but not direct it to where they want and direct players running with the ball at him towards the corner where his pace can be a bigger factor in winning the ball back.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Surely a combination of good coaching and self determination from the player.

Really wish Zak would stop hitting 60 yard diagonal Hoddle / Hollywood passes. Put us under real pressure for a couple of minutes when one went astray (yet again) yesterday.

Plus a bit of onfield “coaching” from players like Naismith and James…and then King.

People moaned about playing King at CB, and moaned about Naismith too to a lesser extent.  But when your hear Big Rob (who Nige called an introvert and couldn’t play central) say things like he learned from Naismith about blanking out errors and getting on with the game, you kinda see the mentality that these players have added to the squad and how it has rubbed off on these players.  I think King was used partly out of necessity but to show how to talk a teammate through a game.  Vyner then showed this guiding Tanner and Pring through games.

[BS13 Robin]

I said at the time that Fonts needed to be out of the team for a while,his confidence was shot.

[Tom]

Not really sure while we're comparing apples with oranges here, is it that they both play CB, had occasionally shaky games, and are mixed race? Also important to note that, we signed Fontaine from Fulham at 20, and Vyner came through the academy. 

Vyner stepped up, Liam wasn't able to. Fontaine left us 9 years ago, and there are so many variables. I'm not quite sure about the point of this thread, to be honest. Maybe I've missed something?

[eardun]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Plus a bit of onfield “coaching” from players like Naismith and James…and then King.

People moaned about playing King at CB, and moaned about Naismith too to a lesser extent.  But when your hear Big Rob (who Nige called an introvert and couldn’t play central) say things like he learned from Naismith about blanking out errors and getting on with the game, you kinda see the mentality that these players have added to the squad and how it has rubbed off on these players.  I think King was used partly out of necessity but to show how to talk a teammate through a game.  Vyner then showed this guiding Tanner and Pring through games.

I was going to say the same. I think Naismith in particular would have been great for Vyner this season - a great communicator, confident on the ball and calm under pressure. The whole of the back four has looked calmer and more confident and I don’t think it is a coincidence. 

[archie andrews]

1 hour ago, eardun said:

I was going to say the same. I think Naismith in particular would have been great for Vyner this season - a great communicator, confident on the ball and calm under pressure. The whole of the back four has looked calmer and more confident and I don’t think it is a coincidence. 

technically excellent is zac if he improves any more gonna be hard to keep him....

[beaverface]

4 hours ago, Tom said:

Not really sure while we're comparing apples with oranges here, is it that they both play CB, had occasionally shaky games, and are mixed race? Also important to note that, we signed Fontaine from Fulham at 20, and Vyner came through the academy. 

Vyner stepped up, Liam wasn't able to. Fontaine left us 9 years ago, and there are so many variables. I'm not quite sure about the point of this thread, to be honest. Maybe I've missed something?

The point I'm really trying to ask is whether Zac Vyners upturn in performances is related to the coaching and support he's getting from the manager and coaches this season vs the support that Liam Fontaine got at the time?

It was well documented that Caulker was left to his own devices back in the day which didn't help him one iota, and I was contemplating whether Fontaine was just told to get out there, and get on with it without any additional assistance or coaching?