We should go 3-5-2

[ChrisBW]

Firstly, I know this isn’t going to happen. NP has seemingly put all his eggs in the 433 basket. Secondly, some people say formations don’t matter, well, 3 shots on target says otherwise.

This formation enables us to get our best players on the pitch and offers more support to our forward players. We do not have a forward who can play upfront by himself, and we don’t have wingers who can cross a ball, our best delivery players are our full backs who can’t get up the pitch….this formation enables them to.

Pring has no relationship with Bell or Mehmeti, and Tanner has no relationship with Cornick and is scared to cross the half way line…..wingbacks enables us to get our full backs up the pitch…..Pring/Roberts on the left….Sykes on the right.

Bell/Cornick/Wells need support, a partner, someone who they can work with, someone who can occupy defenders….they aren’t physical enough, clever enough to play up top by themselves……this isn’t the QPR side where Wells did so well with 2 creative wingers and 2 classy CMs putting him in.

Dickie has played in a 3 at QPR, Vyner and Naismith are proven at this level…..it takes time to coach, surely it’s worth considering? Does this lineup look any worse than what we’ve seen so far this season?

O’Leary

Vyner Naismith Dickie

Sykes James Knight Pring

Weimann/Mehmeti

Wells Cornick

Thoughts? 

[Finley_Smith10]

1 minute ago, ChrisBW said:

Firstly, I know this isn’t going to happen. NP has seemingly put all his eggs in the 433 basket. Secondly, some people say formations don’t matter, well, 3 shots on target says otherwise.

This formation enables us to get our best players on the pitch and offers more support to our forward players. We do not have a forward who can play upfront by himself, and we don’t have wingers who can cross a ball, our best delivery players are our full backs who can’t get up the pitch….this formation enables them to.

Pring has no relationship with Bell or Mehmeti, and Tanner has no relationship with Cornick and is scared to cross the half way line…..wingbacks enables us to get our full backs up the pitch…..Pring/Roberts on the left….Sykes on the right.

Bell/Cornick/Wells need support, a partner, someone who they can work with, someone who can occupy defenders….they aren’t physical enough, clever enough to play up top by themselves……this isn’t the QPR side where Wells did so well with 2 creative wingers and 2 classy CMs putting him in.

Dickie has played in a 3 at QPR, Vyner and Naismith are proven at this level…..it takes time to coach, surely it’s worth considering? Does this lineup look any worse than what we’ve seen so far this season?

O’Leary

Vyner Naismith Dickie

Sykes James Knight Pring

Weimann/Mehmeti

Wells Cornick

Thoughts? 

Play all second half of last season and pre season 433 just to change formation and tactics after 1 game…

[Slippin cider]

Cotts played 3-5-2 to death ….still didn’t do much good …..

[JoeAman08]

We do seem better equipped for it than last season funnily enough. I’d put Roberts in for James and slide Naismith in midfielder. Dickie in the middle. 

2 minutes ago, Finley_Smith10 said:

Play all second half of last season and pre season 433 just to change formation and tactics after 1 game…

And when we changed we got better. This season starting same as last season. Poor performances going forward. It isn’t unreasonable even if I don’t think I’d do it quite yet. 

[ExiledAjax]

[ChrisBW]

Just now, JoeAman08 said:

We do seem better equipped for it than last season funnily enough. I’d put Roberts in for James and slide Naismith in midfielder. Dickie in the middle. 

And when we changed we got better. This season starting same as last season. Poor performances going forward. It isn’t unreasonable even if I don’t think I’d do it quite yet. 

Our strikers need  a partner, and our full backs need to get up the pitch.

[Finley_Smith10]

3 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

We do seem better equipped for it than last season funnily enough. I’d put Roberts in for James and slide Naismith in midfielder. Dickie in the middle. 

And when we changed we got better. This season starting same as last season. Poor performances going forward. It isn’t unreasonable even if I don’t think I’d do it quite yet. 

The transfer window still hasn’t ended yet mind. Who knows what our team will look like in a weeks time. Think it’s abit too soon to change formation. 

[Davefevs]

This is a thread I should leave now!!!

I think the problem is that with any formation is, putting blobs on a magnetic board doesn’t mean they play that way.

It’s far too easy to say - “our fullbacks need to get up the pitch” and suggest Wingbacks is the solution.  It’s more complex than that.  They can play / position themselves as high as you want in their, but how do you get them the ball?  Too little thought is given to what happens out of possession too, especially transitioning back into position / shape.

Did Millwall’s back-3 / WB system get McNamara and Bryan high up the pitch?  Nope.  Positionally they got no higher up the pitch than our FBs in a back-4!!!

But generally, I don’t really care what formation we play, the game is fluid, for me it’s about getting the best players onto the pitch in areas where to help us play better as a team.

I do agree with pairings, personally I do want two forwards to play together, but I’m just as interested in the partnership of for example my RB and my right side midfielder, my LB and my LCB.

FWIW if we can get most of your 11 / our better 11 players on the pitch most of the time, I don’t think the system matters too much.  There are a core group of players who if fit are a big part of our opportunity to play well / better.

[BCFCGav]

We’ve barley got enough centre-halves to play a back 4!

Also - the start of this season is the most defensively sound we’ve looked for a long long time. I’d personally be looking at tweaks to get the attack on song, not wholesale change.

[IAmNick]

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but isn't your suggested formation 3412 not 352?

It just goes to show how much the players make the formation, rather than the other way around imo. The fact you've got a Mehmeti/Weimann there means you've written it like that, whereas a Naismith wouldn't be.

There are ways to address your points (where our full backs play, where our wingers or wide fowards play and so on) without necessarily changing formation - in fact, my suspicion would be that if you simply change the formation you'll see very similar problems appear again.

[AppyDAZE]

31 minutes ago, Slippin cider said:

Cotts played 3-5-2 to death ….still didn’t do much good …..

This is irony?

[Top Robin]

Do you think it may be the quality of players rather than the formation which is failing us? 

[Harry]

I’m always for playing players in their best positions. 
When we were playing the 3-5-2 last season we were basing the whole dynamic of our play on Naismith playing in the middle of the 3 centre backs. 
It was a position he had never played before in his career. 
And don’t get me started on the number of times we played our generational midfield talent Scott at wing back during that phase!!! Oh my days. 
 

So, when the change of formation happened after Xmas 2022 it was a relief for me. 
 

However, if we look at us yesterday. We have a wide forward playing lone striker. A cumbersome forward playing right wing. An energetic combative central midfielder playing as the creative ‘10’ role. An out and out left winger playing as a left ‘forward’. 
 

I don’t think we saw a number of our players playing in their strongest roles yesterday. 
So the argument for a change of formation is potentially a valid one. 
Not saying I’d do it. But let’s play with this :

Naismith is arguably our best player. We signed him off the back of 2 good seasons at this level playing on the left side of a back 3. 
With Atkinson injured, would Naismith be best as the left sided CB of a 3, with Vyner right side and Dickie central? 
With a lack of a creative midfielder, would we be better off playing James & Knight as a 2, with James holding and Knight box to box. 
With Mehmeti and Sykes being pure wingers, are they going to perform better in that role than a wide forward role? 
Problem then is, how do you fit 2 pure wingers into a team playing 3 centre backs? 
 

I don’t think I’d switch to a back 3, there is definitely a case to be made of playing 2 strikers, 2 centre mids and 2 wingers.
But the problems we have with certain formations are :

A) we don’t have any ‘10’s.
B) We don’t have a capable right sided wing back. 
C) We only have 1 right footed centre back. 
 

Bearing in mind all of that, I suddenly look and wonder what actually is the best formation to get the best players playing in their best positions and I suddenly see a rather imbalanced squad. 

[BCFCAL]

11 hours ago, ChrisBW said:

Firstly, I know this isn’t going to happen. NP has seemingly put all his eggs in the 433 basket. Secondly, some people say formations don’t matter, well, 3 shots on target says otherwise.

This formation enables us to get our best players on the pitch and offers more support to our forward players. We do not have a forward who can play upfront by himself, and we don’t have wingers who can cross a ball, our best delivery players are our full backs who can’t get up the pitch….this formation enables them to.

Pring has no relationship with Bell or Mehmeti, and Tanner has no relationship with Cornick and is scared to cross the half way line…..wingbacks enables us to get our full backs up the pitch…..Pring/Roberts on the left….Sykes on the right.

Bell/Cornick/Wells need support, a partner, someone who they can work with, someone who can occupy defenders….they aren’t physical enough, clever enough to play up top by themselves……this isn’t the QPR side where Wells did so well with 2 creative wingers and 2 classy CMs putting him in.

Dickie has played in a 3 at QPR, Vyner and Naismith are proven at this level…..it takes time to coach, surely it’s worth considering? Does this lineup look any worse than what we’ve seen so far this season?

O’Leary

Vyner Naismith Dickie

Sykes James Knight Pring

Weimann/Mehmeti

Wells Cornick

Thoughts? 

After last season, seeing Naismith in a back 3 would probably give me a heart attack. Gave away so many goals last season trying to play out too much. I liked him in central midfield, but at centre back, gave away too many cheap goals.

Nige seems to have recruited for a 433, can't see him changing just after the window after planning for that and getting signings that he sees for that gameplan.

[Grey Fox]

11 hours ago, Finley_Smith10 said:

The transfer window still hasn’t ended yet mind. Who knows what our team will look like in a weeks time. Think it’s abit too soon to change formation. 

Why, who else are we selling ?

[Fuber]

13 hours ago, Top Robin said:

Do you think it may be the quality of players rather than the formation which is failing us? 

100%.

My (and this is an opinion) view on it, is that 4-3-3 is predominantly a wing play or counter attacked system.

None of our midfielders bar Knight are mobile enough, especially in the transition nor off the ball. We need a Scott replacement ASAP. We need McCrorie fit with Tanners woeful forward play so far this season.

I'm significantly worried about the lack of links or rumors for signings, if Murphy comes in and that's it that's tantamount to basically asking NP to be sacked.

Need a GK, DM, CM, ST, minimum. Hypothetically, examples of which could include the following from my post in the Scott money thread - Southwood (Cheltenham), Iroegbaunam (Villa), Styles (Barnsley), Zeqiri (Brighton, Loan).

Lead to the team looking something akin to:

Southwood, McCrorie, Vyner, Dickie, Roberts, Iroegbaunam, Knight, Styles, Sykes, Mehmeti, Zeqiri; with bench of - O'Leary, Araoye, Pring, Tanner, James, Williams, Yeboah, Wells, Bell.

Good cover and still space for rotating a couple youth players, brings the age of the midfield down from, adds more strength and mobility and covers us for James, King, and Williams contracts ending end of season.

But then I'm not the manager nor head of recruitment.

[Mr Popodopolous]

39 minutes ago, Fuber said:

100%.

My (and this is an opinion) view on it, is that 4-3-3 is predominantly a wing play or counter attacked system.

None of our midfielders bar Knight are mobile enough, especially in the transition nor off the ball. We need a Scott replacement ASAP. We need McCrorie fit with Tanners woeful forward play so far this season.

I'm significantly worried about the lack of links or rumors for signings, if Murphy comes in and that's it that's tantamount to basically asking NP to be sacked.

Need a GK, DM, CM, ST, minimum. Hypothetically, examples of which could include the following from my post in the Scott money thread - Southwood (Cheltenham), Iroegbaunam (Villa), Styles (Barnsley), Zeqiri (Brighton, Loan).

Lead to the team looking something akin to:

Southwood, McCrorie, Vyner, Dickie, Roberts, Iroegbaunam, Knight, Styles, Sykes, Mehmeti, Zeqiri; with bench of - O'Leary, Araoye, Pring, Tanner, James, Williams, Yeboah, Wells, Bell.

Good cover and still space for rotating a couple youth players, brings the age of the midfield down from, adds more strength and mobility and covers us for James, King, and Williams contracts ending end of season.

But then I'm not the manager nor head of recruitment.

We drop Naismith? Think he is or can be excellent at distribution, Naismith and Scott as part of a midfield 3 could have been excellent this year but we won't see that now.

[UREDS_91]

17 hours ago, ChrisBW said:

Firstly, I know this isn’t going to happen. NP has seemingly put all his eggs in the 433 basket. Secondly, some people say formations don’t matter, well, 3 shots on target says otherwise.

This formation enables us to get our best players on the pitch and offers more support to our forward players. We do not have a forward who can play upfront by himself, and we don’t have wingers who can cross a ball, our best delivery players are our full backs who can’t get up the pitch….this formation enables them to.

Pring has no relationship with Bell or Mehmeti, and Tanner has no relationship with Cornick and is scared to cross the half way line…..wingbacks enables us to get our full backs up the pitch…..Pring/Roberts on the left….Sykes on the right.

Bell/Cornick/Wells need support, a partner, someone who they can work with, someone who can occupy defenders….they aren’t physical enough, clever enough to play up top by themselves……this isn’t the QPR side where Wells did so well with 2 creative wingers and 2 classy CMs putting him in.

Dickie has played in a 3 at QPR, Vyner and Naismith are proven at this level…..it takes time to coach, surely it’s worth considering? Does this lineup look any worse than what we’ve seen so far this season?

O’Leary

Vyner Naismith Dickie

Sykes James Knight Pring

Weimann/Mehmeti

Wells Cornick

Thoughts? 

You seem to have Cornick still on the pitch... 

[BigTone]

17 hours ago, ChrisBW said:

Firstly, I know this isn’t going to happen. NP has seemingly put all his eggs in the 433 basket. Secondly, some people say formations don’t matter, well, 3 shots on target says otherwise.

This formation enables us to get our best players on the pitch and offers more support to our forward players. We do not have a forward who can play upfront by himself, and we don’t have wingers who can cross a ball, our best delivery players are our full backs who can’t get up the pitch….this formation enables them to.

Pring has no relationship with Bell or Mehmeti, and Tanner has no relationship with Cornick and is scared to cross the half way line…..wingbacks enables us to get our full backs up the pitch…..Pring/Roberts on the left….Sykes on the right.

Bell/Cornick/Wells need support, a partner, someone who they can work with, someone who can occupy defenders….they aren’t physical enough, clever enough to play up top by themselves……this isn’t the QPR side where Wells did so well with 2 creative wingers and 2 classy CMs putting him in.

Dickie has played in a 3 at QPR, Vyner and Naismith are proven at this level…..it takes time to coach, surely it’s worth considering? Does this lineup look any worse than what we’ve seen so far this season?

O’Leary

Vyner Naismith Dickie

Sykes James Knight Pring

Weimann/Mehmeti

Wells Cornick

Thoughts? 

352 against 11 should give us the edge

[LondonBristolian]

First off, I think formations can be a simplistic way to look at systems. The same formation can look very different depending on how players are playing the roles. For example, you can describe a back three where the central defender steps into midfield or a back four with a midfielder dropping back into defence and be broadly describing the same shape.

I also favour tweaks rather than kneejerk system changes. 

The issue for me - and, to be honest, it is an issue Pearson has faced before - is what we do when we have a preferred system but that system is impacted by players being absent or out of form.

I absolutely think 4-3-3 is our best shape but a 3 of Williams, James and Knight is very different to two of those three & Weimann (or Scott when he was here) and Wells or Bell are very different forwards to Conway.

To my mind the major issue, at least at home, is we currently have two potential forwards who play better when players can get close to them than when left isolated but three midfielders who all sit deeper than Scott did or Weimann would. As such, you end up with an isolated forward in the central role. 

There are three possible solutions to this:

1) Try a different player in the middle three and see if Mehmeti or Skyes can play as a no 10 and get closer to the forward.

2) Adjust the forward shape so the front three are closer to each other. (Again, this could be a 4-3-1-2 with Mehemti or Sykes behind Wells & Bell)

3) Go into the transfer market and sign a CAM or a forward who can play up top on their own. 

[Fuber]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We drop Naismith? Think he is or can be excellent at distribution, Naismith and Scott as part of a midfield 3 could have been excellent this year but we won't see that now.

Forgot about Naismith to be honest.

[ProfitInMyPocket]

If we had a midfield that got on the ball more and could maneuver about instead of being static then our fullbacks and wingers could get more into games. 

No Scott to pick the ball up, drive past others and create space for the rest of our team.

I don't mind our midfield options but Knight, Williams, King and James don't bring anything like that. 

Naismith can do it a bit from deeper but further up past the half way line we don't have that.

The amount of times Scott would receive the ball, drive past a player or two ten yards further up and then release someone else who had more space because of that action gave us a real threat.

A change in formation with what we have available will just show the same issues. Sideways passing in front of a block of players who are willing to sit in and break when we inevitably can't break them down.

That's what we are missing.

[LondonBristolian]

35 minutes ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

If we had a midfield that got on the ball more and could maneuver about instead of being static then our fullbacks and wingers could get more into games. 

No Scott to pick the ball up, drive past others and create space for the rest of our team.

I don't mind our midfield options but Knight, Williams, King and James don't bring anything like that. 

Naismith can do it a bit from deeper but further up past the half way line we don't have that.

The amount of times Scott would receive the ball, drive past a player or two ten yards further up and then release someone else who had more space because of that action gave us a real threat.

A change in formation with what we have available will just show the same issues. Sideways passing in front of a block of players who are willing to sit in and break when we inevitably can't break them down.

That's what we are missing.

One slightly ridiculous idea I wonder about - at least until new signings come in or players are fit again - is what would happen if Naismith played ahead of James and Knight.

It might be a bit of a disaster with Naismith being in the wrong position to have an impact offensively and his defensive qualities negated by teams by-passing him but the flip side is a defensive player in an attacking position might pressure opposing defences into mistakes and he might get on the ball in dangerous positions where he has three players in front of him who he can play into promising positions. 

It probably wouldn't work but I do wonder if it is a short-term fix for home games against equal or weaker opposition. 

[ProfitInMyPocket]

6 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

One slightly ridiculous idea I wonder about - at least until new signings come in or players are fit again - is what would happen if Naismith played ahead of James and Knight.

It might be a bit of a disaster with Naismith being in the wrong position to have an impact offensively and his defensive qualities negated by teams by-passing him but the flip side is a defensive player in an attacking position might pressure opposing defences into mistakes and he might get on the ball in dangerous positions where he has three players in front of him who he can play into promising positions. 

It probably wouldn't work but I do wonder if it is a short-term fix for home games against equal or weaker opposition. 

He's the only one in the squad that I see that can draw a player and slip past them into good space, just can't do it on the run and at good pace that Scott could consistently. 

We miss Naismith massively when he ain't playing. He may make mistakes but brings a level of confidence on the ball the rest of the team don't have.

Scott would draw players to him and there's your space beyond. We don't have that right now and it's really showing. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

He's the only one in the squad that I see that can draw a player and slip past them into good space, just can't do it on the run and at good pace that Scott could consistently. 

We miss Naismith massively when he ain't playing. He may make mistakes but brings a level of confidence on the ball the rest of the team don't have.

Scott would draw players to him and there's your space beyond. We don't have that right now and it's really showing. 

Totally agree.

We just lack that bit of expansiveness, of craft without those two, especially Scott.

Not saying our midfield is terrible but it won't really pick a side apart and especially at home. Atkinson stepping into midfield would also give us another dimension if he were fit IMO.

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Atkinson stepping into midfield would also give us another dimension if he were fit IMO.

Which is what Dickie did a few times first half when we were on top, and Vyner once or twice.

[Merrick's Marvels]

Does anyone think Pearson is the type who starts by saying we lack an identity so spends time establishing us as a 4-3-3 team and then, in less than a year, chuck it all away and go 3-5-2?

No, me neither. 

When Leicester were bottom of the Prem, everyone there was clamouring for a change in system. He stuck to his guns and they were the first team to avoid relegation after being bottom at Xmas.

If he didn't blink under that pressure, he ain't gonna blink after a couple of poor games here and not with another 43 opportunities to put it right. 

Even if it might cost him his job.

He's not so insecure or self-serving - unlike some we've had - to make decisions just to save his own arse. What he'll continue to do, is make decisions based on what he thinks is best for the football club and his players.

If only some of our previous employees had been as honest and straightforward. 

Happy birthday, Nige. Age is just a number, baby!

Edited August 21, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Which is what Dickie did a few times first half when we were on top, and Vyner once or twice.

True, Atkinson just feels like he has done it for a bit longer with us, may chip in with a goal too and a natural left footer.

[Supersonic Robin]

21 hours ago, BCFCGav said:

We’ve barley got enough centre-halves to play a back 4!

Also - the start of this season is the most defensively sound we’ve looked for a long long time. I’d personally be looking at tweaks to get the attack on song, not wholesale change.

And we have 1 fit out-and-out striker! I suppose an optimist might say that we're 50% of the way towards being able to play a front 2.......

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

True, Atkinson just feels like he has done it for a bit longer with us, may chip in with a goal too and a natural left footer.

That’s because he’s been here longer than 4 games!!!