Wage budget

[tin]

What I struggle to understand is that the wage budget for 2023/24 was set in March. That sounds to me like it was set in stone, regardless of any plans to sell Scott or not. Surely, we would have one budget projection if we kept Scott and another increased budget if we sold him? It makes even less sense when you consider SL’s financial background. 

[Hazelboy]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If we look at the accounts, the football club wage bill (not just the players) was:

20/21: £30.251m (peak)

21/22: £23.807m (Nige first full season / influence over wage budget) net £6.4m

22/23: not published, but say it was £22.000m - net £8m on 20/21

23/24: not published, but say it is around £19.000m - net £11m on 20/21

That means he’s saved £25m over 3 seasons.  The wage budget is now in the realms of 2016/17 season.

That is hardly conducive to gearing up for a top 6 challenge is it.  In fact based on historical accounts it puts us around bottom 6-8…Luton territory!  The trajectory of Luton’s spend was upwards, ours is downward.

Yours sincerely,

Worried of Downend 

Perfect, we have a better squad than they did when they went up

Announce promotion 

[Mr Popodopolous]

[Sleepy1968]

1 minute ago, robinforlife2 said:

My issue would be, in moving on Wells. At present he is our best chance of goals, and I don't think he would be replaced easily. 

Absolutely no chance of Wells leaving this season, so I'll argue for a young Kenny Dalglish as his replacement.

[petehinton]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

One comment that caught the eye in the Murphy story was that it stated the wage budget was as agreed in March. If that's true it won't come as a shock to NP.

Anyone got any ideas?

I’m losing track on it all to be honest. There’s so many contradicting statements/comments. 
 

Put in the other thread, but Tinnion said pre Man City (I think, might’ve been later actually) that we had a list of targets for if Alex stays vs an additional list for if he goes. Pearson says the players signed pre season were signed to play alongside Alex, quote Knight isn’t a replacement for Alex, he’s here to play with him. After Alex js sold, SL says in his Guernsey chat that we always knew Alex was going to be sold, so we preemptively spent some of that money on the incomings that came in before he left. 
 

Edited August 30, 2023 by petehinton

[Oh Louie louie]

On the plus side when Tommy returns we will have a Tom a dickie and a harry

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, petehinton said:

I’m losing track on it all to be honest. There’s so many contradicting statements/comments. 
 

Put in the other thread, but Tinnion said pre Man City (I think, might’ve been later actually) that we had a list of targets for if Alex stays vs an additional list for if he goes. Pearson says the players signed pre season were signed to play alongside Alex, quote Knight isn’t a replacement for Alex, he’s here to play with him. After Alex js sold, SL says in his Guernsey chat that we always knew Alex was going to be sold, so we preemptively spent some of that money on the incomings that came in before he left. 
 

February v March. Pre Man City was February.

A pertinent q might be, what changed between February and March?

[Shauntaylor85]

1 hour ago, Tomo said:

We need cover at GK, CB and CF...

The simple summary is...

Mr Lansdown is not showing any intent to support Nigel Pearson, whilst we all know that we need cover in these positions. I feel for the manager especially when we have sold 35 Million of talent recently in Semenyo and Scott. 

It's a poor move by our owner not to support him. We are not talking about spending huge amounts of money to get that cover in, whether that's loan or permanent signings. It must be so frustrating for NP, when he knows that Little Lee had a open cheque book (which was the wrong thing to do clearly). 

I don't think Nige has a reputation of wasting money at any of his previous clubs and whilst he was aware of our financial position when he was appointed, there must be an air of frustration creeping in now, in view that we have sold 2 of our most valuable assets. 

I think it's naughty of SL not to give him some kind budget to get the cover in those key positions. For example, if we get injuries to players like Max, Vyner and Nahki, (alongside our other injuries), we are going to be struggling imo. 

Tomo   

Great post and one which should be send recorded delivery to the boardroom at AG! 

[daored]

1 minute ago, petehinton said:

I’m losing track on it all to be honest. There’s so many contradicting statements/comments. 
 

Put in the other thread, but Tinnion said pre Man City (I think, might’ve been later actually) that we had a list of targets for if Alex stays vs an additional list for if he goes. Pearson says the players signed pre season were signed to play alongside Alex, quote Knight isn’t a replacement for Alex, he’s here to play with him. After Alex js sold, SL says in his Guernsey chat that we always knew Alex was going to be sold, so we preemptively spent some of that money on the incomings that came in before he left. 
 

Tinnion made those comments on RB pre Man City cup game and as you mention certainly seems as though those brought in on Jan / pre season were from Semenyo sale, with a further plan should Scott leave 

 

24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If we look at the accounts, the football club wage bill (not just the players) was:

20/21: £30.251m (peak)

21/22: £23.807m (Nige first full season / influence over wage budget) net £6.4m

22/23: not published, but say it was £22.000m - net £8m on 20/21

23/24: not published, but say it is around £19.000m - net £11m on 20/21

That means he’s saved £25m over 3 seasons.  The wage budget is now in the realms of 2016/17 season.

That is hardly conducive to gearing up for a top 6 challenge is it.  In fact based on historical accounts it puts us around bottom 6-8…Luton territory!  The trajectory of Luton’s spend was upwards, ours is downward.

Yours sincerely,

Worried of Downend 

Let’s have two worried Downend residents - this for me seems a calculated gamble by SL to cut the requirement on him to keep the club financially stable to the scheme he has done in the past. Let’s hope it doesn’t backfire because relegation would be financial disaster 

[ChippenhamRed]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If we look at the accounts, the football club wage bill (not just the players) was:

20/21: £30.251m (peak)

21/22: £23.807m (Nige first full season / influence over wage budget) net £6.4m

22/23: not published, but say it was £22.000m - net £8m on 20/21

23/24: not published, but say it is around £19.000m - net £11m on 20/21

That means he’s saved £25m over 3 seasons.  The wage budget is now in the realms of 2016/17 season.

That is hardly conducive to gearing up for a top 6 challenge is it.  In fact based on historical accounts it puts us around bottom 6-8…Luton territory!  The trajectory of Luton’s spend was upwards, ours is downward.

Yours sincerely,

Worried of Downend 

I just don't get our club or it's finances at the moment.

Correct me if I'm wrong but: -

- We've just received £25m for one player who cost us nothing, in addition to £10m in January for another player who cost us nothing

- As demonstrated above, we have substantially reduced the wage bill over the last few years

- We have obvious weaknesses in the team that need addressing, and a squad that is currently very unlikely to challenge for the top six.

 

....so if we can't or won't spend money in these circumstances in order to give ourselves a proper chance of progression and promotion - when can we?

And if we needed that money just to cover losses - what the hell would we have done without that massive cash injection that wasn't guaranteed? And why aren't we are competitive as other Championship sides who haven't had the benefit of £35m in transfer receipts in the last 8 months?

What's going on? Can anyone explain it?

[daored]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

February v March. Pre Man City was February.

A pertinent q might be, what changed between February and March?

Or is it later and Luton getting promoted and now the model to follow ?

[robinforlife2]

Basically, SL has bankrolled us for so long, and pumped so much money in to the club in the way of loans, and now he is reaching the time he wants out, he is getting to the point he wants to retire, and most likely the club is paying off part of his loans and with that, the money has gone to SL and not into the operation budget of the club. 

I'm not saying SL is doing an Oyston, but even the Oyston's supported Blackpool until they came into money, then they took it back and watched the club fall apart, but pocketed all they put in and more. In my opinion, SL is more interested in SL now, than in BCFC.

[Loco Rojo]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Because we've set it too low?

(And to be clear - I'm not advocating we pay anyone £20K a week in the Championship ever again)

Have we set it too low or has it been set at this level to avoid causing a future financial mess and to operate within the income the club makes?

If the financials were released now, would it show we're now making profit? We dip in to the AS funds to bring player/s in and we go above the salary budget ceiling which Nigels mentioned. Without increasing incoming funds from revenue streams to offset this, we risk ending up back in the financial mess we've been in?

I know it might not be as black and white as that but it might go some way to explaining why the salary budget is set as it is.

Do we want to set the club back on the path of overspending financially? It's a tough balance isn't it to spend well and be able to attract players and still be competative in football.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, daored said:

Or is it later and Luton getting promoted and now the model to follow ?

Maybe but budget agreed in March seems pretty odd.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Yep, the Fuhrer has pulled up the drawbridge all while making us pretty unsaleable!

I could make a similar list of Amortisation savings:

20/21: £12.358m (peak)

21/22: £9.406m - net £2.9m

22/23: £6.600m (est.) - net £5.7m

23/24: £2.200(est.) - net £10.1m

Thats another £18m less cost under Nige.

2 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I just don't get our club or it's finances at the moment.

Correct me if I'm wrong but: -

- We've just received £25m for one player who cost us nothing, in addition to £10m in January for another player who cost us nothing

- As demonstrated above, we have substantially reduced the wage bill over the last few years

- We have obvious weaknesses in the team that need addressing, and a squad that is currently very unlikely to challenge for the top six.

 

....so if we can't or won't spend money in these circumstances in order to give ourselves a proper chance of progression and promotion - when can we?

And if we needed that money just to cover losses - what the hell would we have done without that massive cash injection that wasn't guaranteed? And why aren't we are competitive as other Championship sides who haven't had the benefit of £35m in transfer receipts in the last 8 months?

What's going on? Can anyone explain it?

no, it’s bonkers.

Austerity at the wrong time.

Unnecessary austerity.

[Selred]

Who is on the big wages?

Based on our starting line ups:

Max - academy, imagine a fairly low wage for a Champ keeper

Tanner - came from league two

Vyner - see Max

Dickie - perhaps a decent Champ wage, but can't imagine wild.

Pring - see Vyner

James - could he be on a decent chunk? But was brought in during the Nigel cut back era.

Knight - came from league one, can't be mega wages

Williams - can't imagine Wigan was major payers, but could be on a decent wedge

Bell - see Pring

Wells - took a big pay cut, imagine on a good salary but not outrageous 

Sykes - see Knight

 

It doesn't make sense. Our bench involves more academy kids, Weimann (but pay cut) and Cornick, and some league one players.

[ChippenhamRed]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I could make a similar list of Amortisation savings:

20/21: £12.358m (peak)

21/22: £9.406m - net £2.9m

22/23: £6.600m (est.) - net £5.7m

23/24: £2.200(est.) - net £10.1m

Thats another £18m less cost under Nige.

no, it’s bonkers.

Austerity at the wrong time.

Unnecessary austerity.

If you can't make sense of it Dave then I'm really worried!

It all just feels pointless at the moment. I've waited 40 years for us to achieve something, and it doesn't feel any closer today than it ever has. Depressing.

[ChippenhamRed]

1 minute ago, Selred said:

Who is on the big wages?

Based on our starting line ups:

Max - academy, imagine a fairly low wage for a Champ keeper

Tanner - came from league two

Vyner - see Max

Dickie - perhaps a decent Champ wage, but can't imagine wild.

Pring - see Vyner

James - could he be on a decent chunk? But was brought in during the Nigel cut back era.

Knight - came from league one, can't be mega wages

Williams - can't imagine Wigan was major payers, but could be on a decent wedge

Bell - see Pring

Wells - took a big pay cut, imagine on a good salary but not outrageous 

Sykes - see Knight

 

It doesn't make sense. Our bench involves more academy kids, Weimann (but pay cut) and Cornick, and some league one players.

Indeed. Hardly a team of Galacticos is it.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I don't have a problem with that, per se.

The bit I think is unreasonable is the owner then saying, quote: "I think with the squad of players we've got, we've got a great chance of, you know, of competing at the top end of the table".

That's the bit that's crackers.

Even more crackers, he'll probably sack the manager when we aren't.

No-one has a problem with running our finances prudently - just don't set unrealistic expectations at the same time.

More consistent performances and finishing higher than last season should have been the goals for this season, in my book.  

[BCFCinNW6]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Unnecessary austerity.

Not if SL doesn't see value in buying players for NP's 3rd year when it's unlikely he'll carry with a new deal after this season.

If anything SL will be keeping his powder dry until we hire a new manager next year. As to whether that hire will be actually any good is anyone's guess.. especially based on SL's dire recruitment form. 

[petehinton]

3 minutes ago, Selred said:

Who is on the big wages?

Based on our starting line ups:

Max - academy, imagine a fairly low wage for a Champ keeper

Tanner - came from league two

Vyner - see Max

Dickie - perhaps a decent Champ wage, but can't imagine wild.

Pring - see Vyner

James - could he be on a decent chunk? But was brought in during the Nigel cut back era.

Knight - came from league one, can't be mega wages

Williams - can't imagine Wigan was major payers, but could be on a decent wedge

Bell - see Pring

Wells - took a big pay cut, imagine on a good salary but not outrageous 

Sykes - see Knight

 

It doesn't make sense. Our bench involves more academy kids, Weimann (but pay cut) and Cornick, and some league one players.

Williams will be on a decent chunk, as will Dickie. My hunch is Naismith is top earner. 
 

but as you say, I can’t work out a huge cohort of players on mega bucks. There’s certainly no one we’re trying to push out the door to free up cash wages wise anymore anyway. 

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

What's going on? Can anyone explain it?

Steve could but evidently he isn't minded to. He could tell us what the strategy is as it's hard to discern from the outside because of contradictory statements.

How do we square 'what football earns football can spend' with 'there'll be no more incoming as we can't afford it' for instance? Is there a strategy at all or is it a case of Steve's ever changing whims?

Compare and contrast with an admirably well run Plymouth Argyle who give their fans transparency and clarity.

[BCFCGav]

32 minutes ago, Red white and red said:

I’d be amazed if City finished 13th. The players brought in are decent enough, but not a huge upgrade on quality. The players gone have left a huge hole. If there are no further ins and outs, I’d be looking at 17th or 18th. City look far weaker this season already. Reliance on Conway returning, which isn’t until December is a shambles of a decision. Half of the season is gone by then. 

 

43 minutes ago, Super said:

That's hugely ambitious. We are a team that creates very little which puts huge pressure on us keeping clean sheets.

I appreciate and share a lot of the current frustration but I think 13th is far from hugely ambitious.

Our defense is looking more sound with Dickie in it and in our 6 games in all comps so far, we've conceded more than one just once (therefore been in every game).

And on our attack, yes it has stunk at times but Hull and Oxford showed shoots of what we can do and I'm sure it'll click. Plus, with a sturdy defense you only need one or two goals to nick a good result.

This isn't me arguing we don't need more signings, if we have any ambitions of a successful season I actually think we need 3, but if we don't make those signings due to our self-imposed and very dumb salary cap, I still think we're comfortable mid-table come May. And sadly I think Lansdown takes that.

[Mr Popodopolous]

As it stands IMO we can perhaps expect a pre tax profit of £5-10m this season and maybe more like £10-15m using the 2020-21 and 2021-22 figures set against Dave's figures as benchmarks vs the 2018-19 income and expecting a return at close to those levels.

I'll be honest I forecast our likely losses pre Scott sale as £20m or thereabouts before tax but I'm often a bit on the risk averse side. Maybe would have been closer to £15m minus the Scott sale.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[RedRoss]

See I'm not against us continuing to make the club more sustainable. I think we've only just got rid of the legacy contracts and don't want to repeat the same mistakes.

What's frustrating for me is the constant reiterating of a top 6 finish. I know they can't just say we're battling mid table but to set false pretences to the fans will all end in tears as it is now.

 

[tts_city]

We just traded one for 25 million, if not now when ? perhaps SL is hanging onto it for a LJ part two warchest.....

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Williams will be on a decent chunk, as will Dickie. My hunch is Naismith is top earner. 
 

but as you say, I can’t work out a huge cohort of players on mega bucks. There’s certainly no one we’re trying to push out the door to free up cash wages wise anymore anyway. 

The cost in this regard is of course the base wage, plus bonuses then tax, NI and all footballing staff..that works both ways with higher earners too who are now largely outside the door but £25m as the Group wage- that includes a lot of the relevant AG staff- seems pertinent to me.

[Merrick's Marvels]

11 minutes ago, BCFCinNW6 said:

Not if SL doesn't see value in buying players for NP's 3rd year when it's unlikely he'll carry with a new deal after this season.

If anything SL will be keeping his powder dry until we hire a new manager next year. 

You could certainly argue that a lot of things point towards Lansdown and Pearson agreeing this will be his final year - he had a job to do for 3 years: stop the freefall towards L1, cut costs, stabilise, leave the club in good shape for someone else to take forward. Time's up.  

So what we need now is a manager with a Dilly Ding Dilly Dong catchphrase. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[robinforlife2]

4 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

You could certainly argue that a lot of things point towards Lansdown and Pearson agreeing this will be his final year - he had a job to do for 3 years: stop the freefall towards L1, cut costs, stabilise, leave the club in good shape for someone else to take forward. Time's up.  

So what we need now is a manager with a Dilly Ding Dilly Dong catchphrase. 

What about a Square Pegs in Round Holes , or I know who I can trust catchphrase?

[robinforlife2]

9 minutes ago, tts_city said:

We just traded one for 25 million, if not now when ? perhaps SL is hanging onto it for a LJ part two warchest.....

We all know it's coming......... We can all joke about it, and say it in jest, but I think we all know, SL doesn't learn from his mistakes and we are one heavy defeat away from Lee Johnson being back at the helm.