Wage budget

[Wade Wilson]

Here’s what I don’t get, and maybe it’s the Football Manager player in me, but can’t we just allocate some of the Scott money to the wage budget? Like we just got 25 million and we’re not gonna spend any of that when we desperately need to because, what, we’ve maxed out some arbitrarily low wage budget? It’s insane.

I know Scott wouldn’t have been on much but did we really blow what wages he freed up on TGH from WBA who seems to fill no problem that urgently needed filling? 
 

Surely, and again this might be the FM in me talking, we can get someone in on loan where we’re not paying a lot of wages and maybe just a fee? Or a loan like Tammy, he wouldn’t have been on a big chunk of change when we loaned him in. I just don’t get what’s happening right now. Nige has made some stupid transfers (Cornick, King, keeping Wells/Weimann) but dudes gonna walk before this season is done I can feel it. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Wade Wilson

[GrahamC]

23 minutes ago, Selred said:

Who is on the big wages?

Based on our starting line ups:

Max - academy, imagine a fairly low wage for a Champ keeper

Tanner - came from league two

Vyner - see Max

Dickie - perhaps a decent Champ wage, but can't imagine wild.

Pring - see Vyner

James - could he be on a decent chunk? But was brought in during the Nigel cut back era.

Knight - came from league one, can't be mega wages

Williams - can't imagine Wigan was major payers, but could be on a decent wedge

Bell - see Pring

Wells - took a big pay cut, imagine on a good salary but not outrageous 

Sykes - see Knight

 

It doesn't make sense. Our bench involves more academy kids, Weimann (but pay cut) and Cornick, and some league one players.

Hard agree.

Just to add we are using Andy King in the squad & he’s just signed on for another year on what I’ll bet is the lowest wage he’s earned for the majority of his career, basically because he’s a coach padding out a small squad.

We have been unlucky with McCrorie but I would still be very surprised if he’s on any more than Knight.

Naismith too we signed from Luton who are historically very low payers, I doubt he’s on more than £12k at the absolute top.

Contrast this with the wage bill that Pearson inherited, Wells & Weimann on far more than now, Kalas, Palmer, Bentley, Jay Dasilva, Baker, HNM, Nagy & Martin.

In every sense it doesn’t add up.

Edited August 30, 2023 by GrahamC

[RedRoss]

3 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

We all know it's coming......... We can all joke about it, and say it in jest, but I think we all know, SL doesn't learn from his mistakes and we are one heavy defeat away from Lee Johnson being back at the helm. 

Come on I know there's several reasons to berate SL at the moment but it's inconceivable that LJ will be coming back. I'll bet my house on it.

[slartibartfast]

36 minutes ago, daored said:

Tinnion made those comments on RB pre Man City cup game and as you mention certainly seems as though those brought in on Jan / pre season were from Semenyo sale, with a further plan should Scott leave 

 

Let’s have two worried Downend residents - this for me seems a calculated gamble by SL to cut the requirement on him to keep the club financially stable to the scheme he has done in the past. Let’s hope it doesn’t backfire because relegation would be financial disaster 

Make that three................any advance ?

[Bristol Rob]

2 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Come on I know there's several reasons to berate SL at the moment but it's inconceivable that LJ will be coming back. I'll bet my house on it.

Not immediately, there will be a thorough and intensive search leaving no stone unturned first.

Just like they did with Holden.

[TV Tom]

14 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

We all know it's coming......... We can all joke about it, and say it in jest, but I think we all know, SL doesn't learn from his mistakes and we are one heavy defeat away from Lee Johnson being back at the helm. 

What absolute nonsense 

[Merrick's Marvels]

17 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

What about a Square Pegs in Round Holes , or I know who I can trust catchphrase?

No thanks. 

[frenchred]

3 minutes ago, TV Tom said:

What absolute nonsense 

He's sharpening up his PowerPoint presentation as we debate

[TV Tom]

1 minute ago, frenchred said:

He's sharpening up his PowerPoint presentation as we debate

Funny enough i did see him in the Albion in Clifton Village on Tuesday night having a meal, it used to be his regular for Sunday lunch with the family

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, BCFCinNW6 said:

Not if SL doesn't see value in buying players for NP's 3rd year when it's unlikely he'll carry with a new deal after this season.

If anything SL will be keeping his powder dry until we hire a new manager next year. As to whether that hire will be actually any good is anyone's guess.. especially based on SL's dire recruitment form. 

So, what you’re saying is any signings made now wouldn’t fit the unknown style of the unknown manager, which is bound to be different from the current manager.  If that is the case then it shows our owner has learned eff all in 20 years.  The profile of players scouted / analysed / recruited are supposed to follow a longer term strategy that the current incumbent of the manager’s seat.

34 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Steve could but evidently he isn't minded to. He could tell us what the strategy is as it's hard to discern from the outside because of contradictory statements.

How do we square 'what football earns football can spend' with 'there'll be no more incoming as we can't afford it' for instance? Is there a strategy at all or is it a case of Steve's ever changing whims?

Compare and contrast with an admirably well run Plymouth Argyle who give their fans transparency and clarity.

We, mainly led by @ExiledAjax tried to get the club to produce something akin to a Plymouth and Norwich, but that was too transparent!!!

[mozo]

I think it's pretty clear now that Scott was up for sale so that we could cash in on an asset and bank the fee.

We can ponder what banking the fee means though...

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So, what you’re saying is any signings made now wouldn’t fit the unknown style of the unknown manager, which is bound to be different from the current manager.  If that is the case then it shows our owner has learned eff all in 20 years.  The profile of players scouted / analysed / recruited are supposed to follow a longer term strategy that the current incumbent of the manager’s seat.

We, mainly led by @ExiledAjax tried to get the club to produce something akin to a Plymouth and Norwich, but that was too transparent!!!

Just imagine if fans were actually told the reasons why some decisions were made rather than just what they were. Imagine if there was respect rather than "they won't understand anyway" or "commercial sensitivity". A world where we got more than just 100 words of guff Annual Accounts - Bristol City FC (bcfc.co.uk). 

We might have slightly fewer threads about uncle Steve's tight pockets.

PS. I will try again this year to see if we can get something more interesting published this time.

Edited August 30, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Red-Robbo]

I can't see how our club is allegedly in the Top 10 for wages in this division.

Surely Wells, James and King cannot be costing us SO much it means no one else, no matter how inexperienced at this level, can be brought in? We know Weimann's wage was trimmed, others salary will have risen somewhat as players become established first-team regulars, but we're hardly fielding a team of galacticos. 

Do the wage considerations include Pearson's doubtless not inconsiderable salary? Are they taking into account the seemingly endless number of Bristol Sport employees??

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, mozo said:

I think it's pretty clear now that Scott was up for sale so that we could cash in on an asset and bank the fee.

We can ponder what banking the fee means though...

Okay were I a major optimist and I'm not, an ideal theory would be this.

One more season of toughing out, use some of the fee to extend Vyner, Bell, Conway in a similar manner to Pring.

Then with all big past losses gone NP new 2-3 year deal and spend close to the max for a 2-3 year tilt at promotion from summer 2024 onwards. Boom and bust sure but a big tilt all the same..

The financial headroom would be enormous. 

Then I woke up.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Greedo]

SL’s birthday is today, the club posted to Twitter for it last year. 

No such post this year. 
 

Not looking to invite a backlash?

https://x.com/bristolcity/status/1564528782916173831?s=46&t=64HT6VKYLEUlAErwugio4Q

[Rob k]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I can't see how our club is allegedly in the Top 10 for wages in this division.

Surely Wells, James and King cannot be costing us SO much it means no one else, no matter how inexperienced at this level, can be brought in? We know Weimann's wage was trimmed, others salary will have risen somewhat as players become established first-team regulars, but we're hardly fielding a team of galacticos. 

Do the wage considerations include Pearson's doubtless not inconsiderable salary? Are they taking into account the seemingly endless number of Bristol Sport employees??

I think, some of our players are still on more than some think 

[Bristol Rob]

I wonder what our wages to turnover is now.

We had some bonkers figures in the past where it was something like 120% 

[B-Rizzle]

My view is:

The club HAVE invested (certainly prior to Scott’s sale), using the Semenyo money. But perhaps this hasn’t been to the degree that some hoped/ expected, particularly since some big earners have left and we’ve pocketed £25m. I, along with others, feel we’re a little short in numbers and there could be issues if there are significant injuries to our GK, a centre half or another striker (we’re already struggling having TC out).

It’s interesting to hear the club say we’re right on the limit of our wage budget complying with FFP. Haven’t quite got my head around how this can be.

Quite a few people have commented on rumours that SL isn’t sold on NP and for what’s it’s worth, I’m not 100% sold either. Currently looks unlikely that NP will be offered a new deal.

Are the club (SL) holding back a little either with a view that they’ll invest more heavily with a new coach in the future, or, is SL preparing the club to be in a good position selling wise. E.g. get the wage bill under control, invest a bit in youth and bank most of the revenue from player sales so that the club are in a good FFP position so that future investors have more FFP wiggle room to ‘go for it’ a bit more when they first come in?

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

I wonder what our wages to turnover is now.

We had some bonkers figures in the past where it was something like 120% 

Group or club? The two do differ, the BCFC Holdings is about £5-6m higher than the club in isolation.

The Championship is a mad mad League financially, much of the League are or have been at 100 pct of turnover to wages or above this.

I reckon around 80 pct of turnover if we look at the consolidated ie Bristol City Holdings.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[97Red]

I can absolutely 100% see Lansdown not extending NPs contract at end of the season. He will use our inevitable mid table finish as the reasoning for this. In reality, NP has saved us around 25 million on the wages over the past 3 seasons and brought in around 35 million in transfer fees. He's had barely a fraction of this to spend. To say his hands have been tied, I think is honestly an understatement.

NP is not perfect don't get me wrong. But to bring in the best part of £60 million, and not be allowed to reinvest I think is a complete joke. All this whilst still keeping us competitive within this division and bringing through the academy! Lansdown needs to seriously consider his position. He's not backing the manager in the slightest.

[Curr Avon]

The 2012/13 season should serve as a warning.

McInnes had his budget slashed by 50% and recruited poor players.

Result, he was fired in January 2013, O'Driscoll was quickly installed as manager, followed by relegation with a record 27 League defeats.

And it didn't end there! 

Remember the Five Pillars?

Edited August 30, 2023 by Curr Avon

[Red-Robbo]

9 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I think, some of our players are still on more than some think 

They must be!

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

They must be!

Naismith i keep seeing banded about as on 12k a week, he was a free transfer and had options, he will be on more than that in my opinion

[GrahamC]

7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I can't see how our club is allegedly in the Top 10 for wages in this division.

Surely Wells, James and King cannot be costing us SO much it means no one else, no matter how inexperienced at this level, can be brought in? We know Weimann's wage was trimmed, others salary will have risen somewhat as players become established first-team regulars, but we're hardly fielding a team of galacticos. 

Do the wage considerations include Pearson's doubtless not inconsiderable salary? Are they taking into account the seemingly endless number of Bristol Sport employees??

I think there is a level of confusion about Andy King’s likely wages.

Probably not helped by his illustrious career, which with the greatest of respect to him, was fairly long in the past when he joined us.

When we signed him he was without a club, trained a week or two with us pre season to even earn a contract & in the previous season had only made one sub appearance in the Belgian league.

I would be surprised therefore if he’s on any more than circa £6k, he’s effectively in a dual role, a coach & a back up player if we have injuries or suspensions.

James is probably on at least double that, Wells we know took a sizeable pay cut in exchange for 2 extra years but again similar ballpark figure.

I reckon we are all looking for something that’s no longer there, a Kalas type wage earner.

 

[mozo]

3 minutes ago, 97Red said:

I can absolutely 100% see Lansdown not extending NPs contract at end of the season. He will use our inevitable mid table finish as the reasoning for this. In reality, NP has saved us around 25 million on the wages over the past 3 seasons and brought in around 35 million in transfer fees. He's had barely a fraction of this to spend. To say his hands have been tied, I think is honestly an understatement.

NP is not perfect don't get me wrong. But to bring in the best part of £60 million, and not be allowed to reinvest I think is a complete joke. All this whilst still keeping us competitive within this division and bringing through the academy! Lansdown needs to seriously consider his position. He's not backing the manager in the slightest.

Or... if everything you've detailed was part fo the plan, Lansdown should be able now to acknowledge as much and to publicly give Pearson his share of the credit for an epic overhaul of the accounts.

[Mr Popodopolous]

A tale of four cities. 

What must Birmingham and Stoke be paying atm, I mean Kinnell.

Us firstly and this cap.

Birmingham City

As of 2021-22 had a wage bill of around £32m. Yes its and ours and it may have fallen a bit with departures but look at the players they are signing. Will it have fallen as much or even at all.

Cardiff City

As of 2021-22 they had a wage bill iirc of £28-29m? Okay number of high earners left but they also added a lot last season albeit cheap. Average wage £5-10k maybe?

They've added and let go some more this summer but has their wage bill really fallen so far.

Stoke City

Their wage bill fell from £50m to £37m in 2021-22. Which seems suspiciously fast to me but then they gamed the Covid system but that's another thread. Anyway adding players like Wilmot, Vrancic , Baker, Surridge who admittedly came and went plus many PL loanees and Sawyers WBA and Maja half a season that can cost.

Then numerous PL loanees last year, ins and outs sure but I imagine their wage bill strongly exceeds £25m atm!

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Merrick's Marvels]

24 minutes ago, B-Rizzle said:

It’s interesting to hear the club say we’re right on the limit of our wage budget complying with FFP. 

The club haven't said this.

They've said we're on the limit of our wage budget.

But is that (1) a limit the club have set themselves below the FFP ceiling, or (2) a limit that is the maximum allowed by FFP and if we exceeded it, we'd incur FFP penalties (points deduction)?

There's a difference and it would be informative to know which it is (a lot on here are thinking it's the former).

The fact the club don't want to say and would prefer if we didn't know, is instructive. But hardly comes as a surprise.

What I find annoying is that not a single journalist, at one of the weekly pressers, has the wit to at least ask the question.

I'm sure Pearson knows the answer but suspect he'd say instead - "finances are not my area, you're asking the wrong person".

Which is why the silence from both the owner and the CEO at the start of a new season is disappointing and, also, instructive.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I can't see how our club is allegedly in the Top 10 for wages in this division.

Surely Wells, James and King cannot be costing us SO much it means no one else, no matter how inexperienced at this level, can be brought in? We know Weimann's wage was trimmed, others salary will have risen somewhat as players become established first-team regulars, but we're hardly fielding a team of galacticos. 

Do the wage considerations include Pearson's doubtless not inconsiderable salary? Are they taking into account the seemingly endless number of Bristol Sport employees??

We aren’t.

We might’ve been in the spend-thrift days.

We aren’t anymore.

We now based on my guesstimates, bottom 8!  That’s how much has been cut.

What has been misconstrued is RG saying in last years FF that we can compete with top10 for the right players,  e.g. OOC / £free where we can push the boundaries a bit in wages because the overall cost is just wages (and other fees).  He didn’t say we are paying all players top10 wages.

There will always be some disparity in player wages, sometimes just down to the timing of the deal, e.g. Kalas pre-covid versus Atkinson post-Covid.

8 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

The 2012/13 season should serve as a warning.

McInnes had his budget slashed by 50% and recruited poor players.

Result, he was fired in January 2013, O'Driscoll was quickly installed as manager, followed by relegation with a record 27 League defeats.

And it didn't end there! 

Remember the Five Pillars?

Made sense actually.  

6 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Naismith i keep seeing banded about as on 12k a week, he was a free transfer and had options, he will be on more than that in my opinion

But unlikely to be on more than £15k p.w.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Could it be then that as part of our new policy we won't pay wages certainly above and perhaps of £20k per week.

That's fine but it can come with a price. ie Vastly narrowing the pool if players we can hope to attract. There is not yet any kind of wage cap nor has the caution for a year or 2 post Covid continued.

Is it a collective cap, an individual upper limit or some combination of the two that we are applying.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[BUTOR]

23 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

The 2012/13 season should serve as a warning.

McInnes had his budget slashed by 50% and recruited poor players.

Result, he was fired in January 2013, O'Driscoll was quickly installed as manager, followed by relegation with a record 27 League defeats.

And it didn't end there! 

Remember the Five Pillars?

In fairness, the implementation of the five pillars are the reason we didn’t get relegated during the latest mess. 
 

*some of the five pillars I should say.

Edited August 30, 2023 by BUTOR