Pearson, we've been here before no?

[Atticus]

This whole situation is reminding me of the last year of Cotterill. He got us up, smashed league one, won another trophy. Yet the summer was kind of farcical. Lack of investment, some stupid bids going in that went nowhere. Cotterell clearly frustrated. A bit like Pearson now. Granted Pearson hasn't had the success, but then he is in a very competitive league to begin with, and had the fortune of a golden crop of youngsters. Which should bear fruit in terms of reinvestment, but it isn't working out like that. 

Cotterell was sacked just before January and lo and behold. Signings started to flurry. Then we had years of Johnson jnr and investment. 

Is this a vicious cycle? 

Is Lansdowns ego that bad?

He appears to me as someone that cannot handle certain types of personalities. To the detrement of the team. 

 

Is he actually suitable as a realistic owner to progress? I don't think so. 

 

I know there are far worse. 

 

But we appear to have an owner that is way more fixated on his own ego. 

 

This is not a good trait. I don't think Pearson will be here next season. I believe Lansdown is actively looking for a reason to get rid, if not, to do so in the summer. 

I think personally the lansdowns have had their day. It's over. We will never ever progress under them because of the ego of Steve Lansdown. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I mostly agree albeit we are from a revenue perspective in a different financial places a better one. The £30-35m for Scott and Semenyo also gives room to invest.

One year FFP rule now gone, again can spread risk a bit better. Would also add Pearson has frslt with his constraints in a better manner than Cotts- some of those loanees have gone on and had decent careers but we were underpowered and indeed arguably weaker than the side that came up.

[Sheltons Army]

Nice to have a new subject and points to debate

[David Brent]

This golden crop of youngsters you refer to. At least give the manager credit for developing it. These players don’t get a look in under previous management. 

[ashton_fan]

People should remember that without Steve Lansdown putting in £20m or so every year to keep the accounts balanced this club would be in L1. No previous owners have supported the club financially to this extent so a change of owner may well see us going down rather than up.

[David Brent]

12 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Tbf Dean Holden was working under similar with regards youth. His last team had 7-8 in there https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55990624

It's part of the pathway and restrictions management has to work under, would be the same moving forward.

Agree with OP and have said as much previously 

I only see Vyner in that link 

That was a pretty pathetic team which is so far from what we witness every week now. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by David Brent

[TV Tom]

7 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

People should remember that without Steve Lansdown putting in £20m or so every year to keep the accounts balanced this club would be in L1. No previous owners have supported the club financially to this extent so a change of owner may well see us going down rather than up.

This sort of thing is easily forgotten on this forum

[JoeAman08]

8 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

People should remember that without Steve Lansdown putting in £20m or so every year to keep the accounts balanced this club would be in L1. No previous owners have supported the club financially to this extent so a change of owner may well see us going down rather than up.

Who has had a chance to? Completely different game since SL took over. You don’t own a football team to make money. Idk if it was different 25-30 years ago but you go into each season expecting some sort of loss. 
 

Now he does spend to FFP limits but never very well. Thats on him putting faith into wrong people and pulling funding on correct people. I just don’t see us being successful under his ownership. Too worried about what other clubs are doing. 
 

For NP, still not convinced. The style is dreadful. Recruitment seems to be good lads with good fitness and we lost any sense of technical ability. That isn’t getting it done. I feel for him he couldn’t get a direct replacement for Scott don’t get me wrong and maybe we are different with that player. I just don’t think there is any real reason to offer a new contract. The SC comparison is okay and maybe you can compare the squad when we come up to what it is now. However SC was coming off a league win and a cup win. Almost unheard of accomplishment. Not really fair to compare the lack of investment between the two imo. 

[Alessandro]

Without looking to be antagonistic - you can add SC was fired when we fell into the relegation zone too, we’re not there with NP.

However back to now - I’m like a broken record, but the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. SL in decision terms, has made the same mistakes so many times we’ve lost count.

We just seem to be going around in circles and the ‘bodies’ are pilling up at alarming rates - Coppell, Pelling, McInnes, Cotterill, Burt, Alexander, Ashton, LJ, Holden to name a few off top of head (sure people can name more) - all leaving the club under varying size dark clouds, all with gagging orders - all with very little positive things to say about the club or board after leaving….will NP join that list?

All the while the number of people SL has around him in the key managerial and board level positions at the club has shrunk to a very small handful of yes men - as clearly anyone who questions him is handed a P45 - the result is SL looks now stuck in his echo chamber, further evidenced by his and the boards virtual media/fan radio silence. All leaves me with little faith that if NP is replaced, he will be replaced well.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Alessandro

[Alessandro]

19 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

People should remember that without Steve Lansdown putting in £20m or so every year to keep the accounts balanced this club would be in L1. No previous owners have supported the club financially to this extent so a change of owner may well see us going down rather than up.

I’ve always felt this over the years too - but the more I think about the more I think “that’s football” these days.

Yes it’s a huge sum, but people will say to you it’s often a debt of his own mis management - and more over time I’ve come to agree with this. He’s thrown good money after bad time and again.

The reality is football doesn’t make money outside the premier league, at least not for long periods. You own a club, you lose money - why bother? Many reasons probably but mainly because you want to get to the money of the premier league - that’s the jackpot.

Ironically, just pumping in the bare minimum to keep you a float, or throwing good money after bad, is counter productive - it’s like having a container ship with multiple holes in the hull, patching up one at a time and carrying a smaller payload to minimise the losses. 

No, haul the ****** out, invest in filling all the holes then you can fully load up the cargo and make some real money.

OK random analogy but hopefully you get the idea. 

[1960maaan]

He's done brilliantly in some parts, others not so well.
Spent masses of money, but some of that is because of his decisions.

The ground great, but much easier to demand and receive when you are talking tangible things like buildings. Football is much more fluid and where he should have employed good football people, he chose friends in football, not the same.
He should be confident enough to employ people , like Pearson and Gould and step away to let them get on with things. What he's done is pander to people he likes then interfere in things he doesn't understand when it's people he's not so sure of. 

Pearson has got this small, injury depleted squad competing with a side tearing up the division. That in itself is something, a few additions , just 2/3 players with the Scott money could have seen us even challenging 6th spot, who knows. Steve doesn't that's for sure.

[ashton_fan]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

I’ve always felt this over the years too - but the more I think about the more I think “that’s football” these days.

Yes it’s a huge sum, but people will say to you it’s often a debt of his own mis management - and more over time I’ve come to agree with this. He’s thrown good money after bad time and again.

The reality is football doesn’t make money outside the premier league, at least not for long periods. You own a club, you lose money - why bother? Many reasons probably but mainly because you want to get to the money of the premier league - that’s the jackpot.

Ironically, just pumping in the bare minimum to keep you a float, or throwing good money after bad, is counter productive - it’s like having a container ship with multiple holes in the hull, patching up one at a time and carrying a smaller payload to minimise the losses. 

No, haul the ****** out, invest in filling all the holes then you can fully load up the cargo and make some real money.

OK random analogy but hopefully you get the idea. 

Surely he has been "filling in the holes" with the investment in the stadium, training ground, Academy etc.? There are plenty of owners who don't put the money in, or very little, and let the club fall to a level where it can pay the bills with little or no subsidies (the Gas are a good example)

[wayne allisons tongues]

1 hour ago, Tafkarmlf said:

In the team also Moore

On the bench there's plenty including Semenyo that came on.

We've been this way for a while

We bought him from Lens I believe for quite a bit of money about £1.5m. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, ashton_fan said:

Surely he has been "filling in the holes" with the investment in the stadium, training ground, Academy etc.? There are plenty of owners who don't put the money in, or very little, and let the club fall to a level where it can pay the bills with little or no subsidies (the Gas are a good example)

The £20m a season is sketchy because it is the cash flow and or equity we need to look at not the Profit and Loss.

Not all gains and losses are reflected in Cash Flow and not all Cash items are reflected in the P&L.

Not knocking the cash he has put in, but at the same time accuracy is important.

The HPC is a great vital piece. The stadium too- but the drawbridge has been pulled at an unbelievably poor time. We are 2 or 3 light, anyone and everyone could surely see that. The right back situation is unlucky yes but.. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[kmpowell]

1 hour ago, ashton_fan said:

People should remember that without Steve Lansdown putting in £20m or so every year to keep the accounts balanced this club would be in L1. No previous owners have supported the club financially to this extent so a change of owner may well see us going down rather than up.

This line gets trotted out every so often, but it only tells 1 part of a 2 part story.

If I give you £1m to cover a £1m shortfall, you will do just that, but the chances of a fix for that shortfall never goes away. You simply wash your face for another year. But if I give you £2m, you can cover the £1m shortfall, and invest the other £1m into something which will improve/fix the chances of a shortfall the following year.

The truth of the matter is, SL has indeed bailed out the debts, but they are debts partly of his own making by not backing the managers and/or giving the funds to invest in a way which is needed to succeed at this level.

I get the sustainability model, but he can't say that one minutes and then talk the talk about another 'Prep' direction, before bailing on that direction at the last minute.

IMO, NP has done a Herculean turnaround on this club, and I was/am genuinely excited abbot the future until recent months when the Scott money evaporated into thin air. We are now at the point where the basics and fundamentals are firing on all cylinders (i.e. it's washing its face and facing forward), but now is the time for SL to announce if he wants to push-on and invest, or if he's happy for us to be a mediocre mid-level club. 

[Supersonic Robin]

4 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

People should remember that without Steve Lansdown putting in £20m or so every year to keep the accounts balanced this club would be in L1. No previous owners have supported the club financially to this extent so a change of owner may well see us going down rather than up.

How can we be so sure that we'd be in L1 without Lansdown?

There probably is an alternative universe where we'd be in L1. There's also an alternative universe in which we're an upper midtable Premier League team like Brighton.

Given that almost every single club of our size has out-achieved us, probability suggests that we'd have done a bit better under another owner.

Regardless of one's views on Lansdown, it feels as though we're at a point where we need to accept the risks associated with a new owner if we truly want a chance at success.

 

[wayne allisons tongues]

1 hour ago, Tafkarmlf said:

We did, but and this is memory was to develop him.

As was context at the time

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2016-08-25/bristol-city-sign-england-under-19-captain-taylor-moore-from-french-side-lens

There's lots of splitting heirs possible, but I'm sure he ended up qualifying as a home grown player. Though I'm sure someone will correct me.

But that isn’t the question, people were asking/saying about homegrown players and in that squad there was only 1 that started Vyner.

 

Bench was O’Leary Pearson, Towler, Semenyo and Bell who were homegrown.

Massengo, Moore and Bakinson were bought by the club for a combined £5 million I think.

[2015]

I have no problem with Steve Lansdown. He has made massive managerial errors and decisions over the years, but he has always tried to pump money in and support this Club.

What I do have an issue with is his arrogant Son who is Chairman without any merit other than being the son of a very rich man. I think if Jon was the owner right now we would not even have Nigel Pearson in charge in the first place. The Man has a bigger ego than his Father.

[Riaz]

I dont think its the same. Purely because i feel the decision to sack Cotts was correct. We were going down.

Right now, things are alot better than when cotts was sacked.

For starters, we arent in the relegation zone and we are top half.

I think it would be crazy to get rid, when we are just starting to see light at the end of the tunnel.

[Alessandro]

4 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

Surely he has been "filling in the holes" with the investment in the stadium, training ground, Academy etc.? There are plenty of owners who don't put the money in, or very little, and let the club fall to a level where it can pay the bills with little or no subsidies (the Gas are a good example)

Yes some of these things have been done, but far far too late IMO. For too long SL has been a reactive owner rather than proactive owner.

If he's been involved with us for 25 years, it took until 2018 for him to get the HPC planned, meaning for 20 odd of his 25 years we'd been training in a secondary school's playing fields. I played golf with Steve Coppell back in 2011/12 ish and he told me then he asked SL for £20k to improve the gym and got given £8k. It's taken far too long to get the facilities to the level it should be.  

Fair enough, the ground plans were in place at Ashton Vale for a while and the nimbys slowed all that down and we did get on with the redevelopment at Ashton Gate.

R.E the academy, it's exactly the same as the training ground. Too late - Minimal investment was put into it until the 5 pillars back in 2014-16 - so again, it's taken SL 15 plus of his 25 years to realise the need for the academy and need for real investment, as young player after young player were being poached from our area. It should not have taken us 20 plus years for us to be producing academy products at the rate we finally are.

Regarding other owners, look you or I can pick or choose examples of good and bad owners to suit our argument - I'm not actually making comparisons, i've never really done that ever TBH - it's not about anyone, it's about what works. What makes clubs successful, SL has had 25 years to try and work that out and still can't - yet still seemingly believes that only he can lead the way, hence his tiny board and tiny group of senior management.

For me, the clubs that have the dictatorship owners rarely succeed. Those who pay up and put football people in all the football positions from the board room to the physio and let them do their jobs and stay out the dressing room, tend to see the most success. 

Has he been a bad owner, absolutely no. He's provided some incredible continuity and stability for his 25 years on the whole. The heart and intentions are there no doubt. But let's not fall into the trap of thinking it's all been give give give by SL. This is after all the same man who, you don't need to speculate why, decided to leave England and live elsewhere..and I'm sure the businessman has found ways to make owning BCFC 'beneficial', if not now, in the future.  

Off the pitch we are as good as we've ever been yes - but it's still only us catching up to a level that rival clubs have been at for years - don't forget the clubs like Stoke, Middlesborough, Hull etc etc all moving to new all seater stadiums was back in the 90's! Those 3 all seeing something we've not since, Premier league football.

I was fully behind him when he looked like he had a plan finally back in 2014/15 and was willing to give that a chance - I realised when he appointed Holden little had changed and frankly the shit show he oversaw with MA and at the end of LJ shows a complete lack of football knowledge.

So the more you look at his appointments, the patterns, the repeated errors and the way he runs the show, the increasingly out of touch comments in the media (before he gave up with the media and city fans as he's seemed to do) the more it feels he's stuck in an echo chamber. 

We know he wants to sell up, but with his asking price and the package it's already looking easier said than done.

Yes be careful what you wish for, some will say. Probably the same people though that say maybe we should sack NP and see what other options are out there....

Edited October 26, 2023 by Alessandro

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Yes some of these things have been done, but far far too late IMO. For too long SL has been a reactive owner rather than proactive owner.

If he's been involved with us for 25 years, it took until 2018 for him to get the HPC planned, meaning for 20 odd of his 25 years we'd been training in a secondary school's playing fields. I played golf with Steve Coppell back in 2011/12 ish and he told me then he asked SL for £20k to improve the gym and got given £8k. It's taken far too long to get the facilities to the level it should be.  

Fair enough, the ground plans were in place at Ashton Vale for a while and the nimbys slowed all that down and we did get on with the redevelopment at Ashton Gate.

R.E the academy, it's exactly the same as the training ground. Too late - Minimal investment was put into it until the 5 pillars back in 2014-16 - so again, it's taken SL 15 plus of his 25 years to realise the need for the academy and need for real investment, as young player after young player were being poached from our area. It should not have taken us 20 plus years for us to be producing academy products at the rate we finally are.

Regarding other owners, look you or I can pick or choose examples of good and bad owners to suit our argument - I'm not actually making comparisons, i've never really done that ever TBH - it's not about anyone, it's about what works. What makes clubs successful, SL has had 25 years to try and work that out and still can't - yet still seemingly believes that only he can lead the way, hence his tiny board and tiny group of senior management.

For me, the clubs that have the dictatorship owners rarely succeed. Those who pay up and put football people in all the football positions from the board room to the physio and let them do their jobs and stay out the dressing room, tend to see the most success. 

Has he been a bad owner, absolutely no. He's provided some incredible continuity and stability for his 25 years on the whole. The heart and intentions are there no doubt. But let's not fall into the trap of thinking it's all been give give give by SL. This is after all the same man who, you don't need to speculate why, decided to leave England and live elsewhere..and I'm sure the businessman has found ways to make owning BCFC 'beneficial', if not now, in the future.  

Off the pitch we are as good as we've ever been yes - but it's still only us catching up to a level that rival clubs have been at for years - don't forget the clubs like Stoke, Middlesborough, Hull etc etc all moving to new all seater stadiums was back in the 90's! Those 3 all seeing something we've not since, Premier league football.

I was fully behind him when he looked like he had a plan finally back in 2014/15 and was willing to give that a chance - I realised when he appointed Holden little had changed and frankly the shit show he oversaw with MA and at the end of LJ shows a complete lack of football knowledge.

So the more you look at his appointments, the patterns, the repeated errors and the way he runs the show, the increasingly out of touch comments in the media (before he gave up with the media and city fans as he's seemed to do) the more it feels he's stuck in an echo chamber. 

We know he wants to sell up, but with his asking price and the package it's already looking easier said than done.

Yes be careful what you wish for, some will say. Probably the same people though that say maybe we should sack NP and see what other options are out there....

2007 new stadium plans.

Even a reference in late November 2007 to a new Training Ground at Failand.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/b/bristol_city/7118510.stm

[ashton_fan]

1 hour ago, Supersonic Robin said:

How can we be so sure that we'd be in L1 without Lansdown?

There probably is an alternative universe where we'd be in L1. There's also an alternative universe in which we're an upper midtable Premier League team like Brighton.

Given that almost every single club of our size has out-achieved us, probability suggests that we'd have done a bit better under another owner.

Regardless of one's views on Lansdown, it feels as though we're at a point where we need to accept the risks associated with a new owner if we truly want a chance at success.

 

So no club our size has done worse? Derby, Bolton, Wednesday, Wigan, Blackpool, Reading, Portsmouth, Charlton, Barnsley .. need I go on?

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

So no club our size has done worse? Derby, Bolton, Wednesday, Wigan, Blackpool, Reading, Portsmouth, Charlton, Barnsley .. need I go on?

They had good times ie PL, or in some cases winning a trophy or similar before though. Bigger highs and lows but more highs.

Some of those are historically bigger than us anyway 

[ashton_fan]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

They had good times ie PL, or in some cases winning a trophy or similar before though. Bigger highs and lows but more highs.

Some of those are historically bigger than us anyway 

Surely it's not worth winning a trophy if it bankrupts the club though (eg Wimbledon and Wigan nearly)?

[Alessandro]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

2007 new stadium plans.

Even a reference in late November 2007 to a new Training Ground at Failand.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/b/bristol_city/7118510.stm

Yes he did get on fairly quickly with planning the much needed new ground/development.

But that training ground reference; I think that may be something different to what we ended up with, Mr Pop? Because that was 2007 and planning for the HPC was in 2015 and submitted in 2017 IIRC - and we don't share anything with QEH as far as i'm aware (as referenced in old 2007 BBC link) - didn't we buy the land off the golf club? So unless there was 10 years of legal rangling, there was a delay or put on the back burner, for whatever reason.

[Alessandro]

9 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

So no club our size has done worse? Derby, Bolton, Wednesday, Wigan, Blackpool, Reading, Portsmouth, Charlton, Barnsley .. need I go on?

As I was saying, you can pick your argument.

What about Bournemouth, Brighton, Fulham, Cardiff, Swansea, Burnley, Brentford, Luton, Leicester, Southampton...need I go on?!

[ashton_fan]

39 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

As I was saying, you can pick your argument.

What about Bournemouth, Brighton, Fulham, Cardiff, Swansea, Burnley, Brentford, Luton, Leicester, Southampton...need I go on?!

Yes agreed some clubs have done better but my response was to the poster saying "almost every single club of our size has out achieved us" which clearly is incorrect 

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

People should remember that without Steve Lansdown putting in £20m or so every year to keep the accounts balanced this club would be in L1. No previous owners have supported the club financially to this extent so a change of owner may well see us going down rather than up.

Well, since Nigel / RG (et all) came in, they will have cut costs in the football operation by circa £50m by the end of this season, whilst generating £35m income in transfer profit, whilst raising income through increased attendances etc.

The fact that SL has been stumping up so much each year is because “others” wasted money, and I’m not just referring to MA / LJ.  The whole Bristol Sport model is a cost behemoth.  Football (as above) costs have been really trimmed.  He should question why he’s had to put in £20m p.a.  however, this season he’s likely to see a profit…and not stump up anything.  I just wish he’d come out and tell us why he no longer wants to support us like he did.  Who will get the credit for that?

There is of course an alternative to putting in £20m p.a. - and that’s run it better.  If you want to follow another club’s model, look at how they do it….the usual suspects, Brighton, Luton, Brentford…have 1) top class recruitment.  2) They have top class leadership with a vision and importantly how that vision is achieved.  3) they have a single playing identity (that makes recruitment easier / more efficient).

You don’t just say “I want us to be Luton”, you have to look at why you want to be like Luton, what is it that you like…then find out how they achieve their success.  It’s not about buying success, just like it’s not about cutting costs down to Luton’s level, it’s about doing stuff excellently, then all the bits fit together.