New owner question - please help me understand

[Numero Uno]

Is it viable for the football club to be it's own entity again. Is there a future for us outside of Bristol Sport? What has this "Barcelona" copycat scheme actually achieved for us, as a football club, that couldn't have been achieved outside of Bristol Sport?

[Alex#40]

Bristol Sport has become the albatross around Bristol City's neck. No one wants to buy "Bristol Sport" and from what I've read or been told that is what is on offer from the Lansdowns. Nobody wants to buy a half decent British league basketball team, a pretty good women's team, a midtable rugby team AND a midtable Championship football team. Let alone all the other components that I am no doubt unaware of.  Individually you could see investment of various levels in each project but everything as a package deal makes us a very unattractive prospect. "Should I buy Bristol City but I have to take all of this, or just buy Birmingham City FC..." type of thinking.

Having seen the Barcelona model first hand when I have been to the Camp Nou and they tell you about the Handball team, the basketball team etc it is very impressive but that is all a spin off of possibly the biggest and most famous football club in the entire world...not Bristol City. Some investor would probably take all the other Barca teams just to get hold of the football club, no one is doing that for us.

If Steve/Jon insist on this model then they won't sell the club, they will always struggle to get investment and we continue rolling up hill as a football club. In my opinion the whole Bristol Sport era is about the Steve Lansdown legacy, not success. As someone who attends various games across these teams it is not a shot at them but as a lifelong Bristol City fan above all else it is a huge barrier to new investment/ownership and therefore success.

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Is it viable for the football club to be it's own entity again. Is there a future for us outside of Bristol Sport? What has this "Barcelona" copycat scheme actually achieved for us, as a football club, that couldn't have been achieved outside of Bristol Sport?

Achieved - more cost!

[ExiledAjax]

It's viable if they unravel the web of commercial contracts and services that BS provides to BCFC and Ashton Gate. 

In a legal corporate sense the Club remains a separate company, owned by the same person, but separate. That is easy.

What is hard is sorting things like the website and ticketing - all of that is operated by BS on the basis that it saves money for each sport team on an economy of scale basis.

If the Club was to "stand alone" again then we'd have to either buy that service from BS as a third-party (ie not as a sister company), buy it from another service provider, or establish our own service in house.

It's possible - of course it is - but it's expensive, especially in terms of staffing costs. A wealthy new owner who buys Bristol City Holdings for £80m (ie buys BCFC, BCFC Women, Ashton Gate, and the training centre) and is willing to invest maybe £20m in that kind of soft infrastructure would be great, but that leaves Lansdown with a services company (BS) with two cash poor clients (Rugby and Flyers) no hard asset as the stadium goes with BCFC and basically no income.

He might be able to keep a contractual relationship with the new owners and the club, but equally those new owners might go to market and find better services on offer (in fact I'd bet they would). So Steve won't sell like that and instead asks for £200m for the whole packet.

Edited October 30, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[ExiledAjax]

9 minutes ago, Alex#40 said:

Nobody wants to buy...a pretty good women's team

I agree with your post, other than this line. Buying women's teams is a really hot ticket in sports investment right now.

Edit. Fortunately for any new owner, the women's team is owned by the men's team and plays at either the training centre or Ashton Gate, so if they buy Bristol City Holdings they get the women's team included.

Edited October 30, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Full nelson]

6 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I agree with your post, other than this line. Buying women's teams is a really hot ticket in sports investment right now.

Looks like 12/13k for the Man Utd game down the Gate

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I agree with your post, other than this line. Buying women's teams is a really hot ticket in sports investment right now.

Yes, saw a headline about the US market for the WSL.

[Barrs Court Red]

Shared services are a great model.

 A multi use stadium is a great model.  

Im not sure either statement above are controversial. However these principles would generally apply from a business perspective, rather than a customer one - Take the retail side, I’m not sure anyone is happy with how Bristol Sport operate that, other than Bristol Sport themselves? The model suits a portfolio under the ownership of one individual. 
 

If it’s only the package up for sale, and not the individual components then as others have said, why would you? You inherit a loss making stadium company, 5 loss making sports teams and a service company that may or may not be financially viable.  
 

On the flip side, buy the football club only and you’re locked into a contract with at minimum the stadium operating company and even worse if your stuck with the shared services provider for an amount of time.  Does the training ground come with the club?  

[Midlands Robin]

Getting out of Bristol Sport is going to be an absolute nightmare. 

As already posted above, the easy but very expensive option is for a new owner to buy the lot but no one seems to want that. 

If you want the football club, what would you actually get? Even assuming the Lansdowns would be happy to just let that part go. In truth all that would be up for sale would be the men's and women's teams and the HPC. 

The ground and the forthcoming arena would remain in the Bristol Sport portfolio. 

We would rapidly find ourselves in a Coventry situation. 

We have to keep the football team and the ground together but how that happens under the current structure is anyone's guess. 

At the moment, to get the Lansdowns out and move forward we are in more trouble than we realise. 

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Midlands Robin said:

At the moment, to get the Lansdowns out and move forward we are in more trouble than we realise. 

That's my concern and why I say that Lansdown is running this club into the ground. The "be careful what you wish for argument" has been blown apart in my view.

[ExiledAjax]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes, saw a headline about the US market for the WSL.

It's massive. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/38249366/mercury-13-group-invest-100m-buying-women-clubs%3fplatform=amp

It's where investors see growth and see much higher potential returns than in men's football.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Barrs Court Red said:

Shared services are a great model.

 A multi use stadium is a great model.  

Im not sure either statement above are controversial. However these principles would generally apply from a business perspective, rather than a customer one - Take the retail side, I’m not sure anyone is happy with how Bristol Sport operate that, other than Bristol Sport themselves? The model suits a portfolio under the ownership of one individual. 
 

If it’s only the package up for sale, and not the individual components then as others have said, why would you? You inherit a loss making stadium company, 5 loss making sports teams and a service company that may or may not be financially viable.  
 

On the flip side, buy the football club only and you’re locked into a contract with at minimum the stadium operating company and even worse if your stuck with the shared services provider for an amount of time.  Does the training ground come with the club?  

Training ground falls under BCFC Ltd

Stadium under Ashton Gate Ltd.

[Midred]

30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes, saw a headline about the US market for the WSL.

WSL would have to play some matches in the US?

[tandy]

If SL were to sell (as he keeps mentioning), what exactly is he selling?

Surely BCFC on its own is not very attractive option as we don't own the stadium, or do you think he is looking for someone to take over the whole Bristol Sport operation that includes Football, Rugby, Basketball, Women Football etc..?

Genuinely don't know what he is selling, and what the potential buyer would get.

Any help to clarify would be appreciated

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, tandy said:

If SL were to sell (as he keeps mentioning), what exactly is he selling?

Surely BCFC on its own is not very attractive option as we don't own the stadium, or do you think he is looking for someone to take over the whole Bristol Sport operation that includes Football, Rugby, Basketball, Women Football etc..?

Genuinely don't know what he is selling, and what the potential buyer would get.

Any help to clarify would be appreciated

A shitshow. He’d be selling a shitshow.

[milo1111]

4 minutes ago, tandy said:

If SL were to sell (as he keeps mentioning), what exactly is he selling?

Surely BCFC on its own is not very attractive option as we don't own the stadium, or do you think he is looking for someone to take over the whole Bristol Sport operation that includes Football, Rugby, Basketball, Women Football etc..?

Genuinely don't know what he is selling, and what the potential buyer would get.

Any help to clarify would be appreciated

It’s complicated and I don’t have the answers.

only thing I’m confident about is the fact that the whole Bristol sports model will make any potential deal much much harder.

[Silvio Dante]

More seriously, business wise it’s a horrible transaction for purchasers. Rugby is, and will always be, a minority sport - it’s not played by many countries and investors won’t be falling over themselves to buy a club in a sport where two top division teams have gone bust this year.

Basketball is also minority in this country. It’s not a money maker, and has to be seen as a side interest.

The real value is the stadium (with ancillary income), the men’s football and also, now, the ladies team as something with a lower cost base and a growth industry. The value is essentially Bristol City and potential access to Premiership Mens and ladies football. 
 

So, he needs to sell as a package AG and the BCFC teams. (edit: including the HPC) Nobody wants the rest.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Silvio Dante

[ExiledAjax]

18 minutes ago, tandy said:

If SL were to sell (as he keeps mentioning), what exactly is he selling?

Surely BCFC on its own is not very attractive option as we don't own the stadium, or do you think he is looking for someone to take over the whole Bristol Sport operation that includes Football, Rugby, Basketball, Women Football etc..?

Genuinely don't know what he is selling, and what the potential buyer would get.

Any help to clarify would be appreciated

He wants to sell the whole lot, reportedly for about £200m.

Most people will only be interested in buying the football side (men's team, women's team, Ashton Gate, plus Failand). A fair price there is probably £80m - £100m.

So there's the mismatch.

[James54De]

22 minutes ago, tandy said:

If SL were to sell (as he keeps mentioning), what exactly is he selling?

Surely BCFC on its own is not very attractive option as we don't own the stadium, or do you think he is looking for someone to take over the whole Bristol Sport operation that includes Football, Rugby, Basketball, Women Football etc..?

Genuinely don't know what he is selling, and what the potential buyer would get.

Any help to clarify would be appreciated

HOW MANY TIMES????? 
 

He’d be selling Bristol City Holding ltd, who do in-fact own the stadium.

[ExiledAjax]

16 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

More seriously, business wise it’s a horrible transaction for purchasers. Rugby is, and will always be, a minority sport - it’s not played by many countries and investors won’t be falling over themselves to buy a club in a sport where two top division teams have gone bust this year.

Basketball is also minority in this country. It’s not a money maker, and has to be seen as a side interest.

The real value is the stadium (with ancillary income), the men’s football and also, now, the ladies team as something with a lower cost base and a growth industry. The value is essentially Bristol City and potential access to Premiership Mens and ladies football. 
 

So, he needs to sell as a package AG and the BCFC teams. Nobody wants the rest.

I suspect you would be able to find someone or a group of someones who would take the whole lot, but just not at the price he's asking.

IMO he seems to be effectively valuing BS, the Rugby, plus the Flyers at near to £100m, which is laughable.

Come down to £120m maybe and someone might be able to swallow the pill, even if they then planned to sell off the rugby and basketball afterwards.

Edited October 30, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Pezo]

Complete conjecture but I wonder if he is trying to go down the Spanish route and sell a presidency for like 3 years at a time. That way he still has complete ownership but allows someone else to run the ship for a few years at a time with there own money so he doesn't have to pay for it.

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I suspect you would be able to find someone or a group of someones who would take the whole lot, but just not at the price he's asking.

IMO he seems to be effectively valuing BS, the Rugby, plus the Flyers at near to £100m, which is laughable.

Come down to £120m maybe and someone might be able to swallow the pill, even if they then planned to sell off the rugby and basketball afterwards.

The Rugby to me is the elephant in the room - the flyers are easily hived off elsewhere as, absent the arena being built, they aren’t based at the same place/using the same facilities. The issue is that if you don’t include the Rugby in a sale, then what value does it have? It has no home of its own and as said, is in an industry where even at the top level, there isn’t money or kudos. Almost by default we have to include it and that makes a sale more difficult.

The holding out for money I think is based on the hope value of the sporting quarter. However, I’m not sure Lansdown will survive long enough to see that developed with how toxic things are. Possible he waits for the housing planning to secure his money there, then sells AG etc with planning permission and a new owner does what they wish.

[Sir Geoff]

29 minutes ago, tandy said:

If SL were to sell (as he keeps mentioning), what exactly is he selling?

Surely BCFC on its own is not very attractive option as we don't own the stadium, or do you think he is looking for someone to take over the whole Bristol Sport operation that includes Football, Rugby, Basketball, Women Football etc..?

Genuinely don't know what he is selling, and what the potential buyer would get.

Any help to clarify would be appreciated

I think he wants to sell the Circus as he and his son have worn out their clown outfits.

[ExiledAjax]

10 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

The Rugby to me is the elephant in the room - the flyers are easily hived off elsewhere as, absent the arena being built, they aren’t based at the same place/using the same facilities. The issue is that if you don’t include the Rugby in a sale, then what value does it have? It has no home of its own and as said, is in an industry where even at the top level, there isn’t money or kudos. Almost by default we have to include it and that makes a sale more difficult.

The holding out for money I think is based on the hope value of the sporting quarter. However, I’m not sure Lansdown will survive long enough to see that developed with how toxic things are. Possible he waits for the housing planning to secure his money there, then sells AG etc with planning permission and a new owner does what they wish.

The planning challenge re Longmoor is certainly a fly in the ointment.

[Dr Balls]

Bristol Sport and the complex web of overlapping companies is a major headache for any potential new owner.   The obvious sellable package is the Men’s football team, the Women’s football team, Ashton Gate Stadium and the HPC. That would be fairly attractive at a reasonable asking price.

However, throw in a professional rugby club that is in the top tier but makes no money, in a sport that is financially up against it and seen 3 top tier teams go bust in the past 12 months, and plays at the same stadium, which as part of its Premiership Rugby contract has to have first dibs on the stadium in terms of when to play, and a relatively successful basketball team that plays at a further education college to a maximum of just 500 spectators and you can see the size of the problem, even before you have try to unravel all of the other joint ticketing, promotions etc.

The model of a “sporting club” might well work at Barcelona and even in Germany, where this has developed organically out of local sports clubs, but that’s also because they are majority owned by their supporters not a single billionaire, who pulled these different sporting teams, which had little or nothing to do with each other, into one sprawling overarching entity.

[Leveller]

15 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

The Rugby to me is the elephant in the room - the flyers are easily hived off elsewhere as, absent the arena being built, they aren’t based at the same place/using the same facilities. The issue is that if you don’t include the Rugby in a sale, then what value does it have? It has no home of its own and as said, is in an industry where even at the top level, there isn’t money or kudos. Almost by default we have to include it and that makes a sale more difficult.

The holding out for money I think is based on the hope value of the sporting quarter. However, I’m not sure Lansdown will survive long enough to see that developed with how toxic things are. Possible he waits for the housing planning to secure his money there, then sells AG etc with planning permission and a new owner does what they wish.

Isn't there the possibility he could sell the football team and stadium, but retain and continue to finance the other teams? Not ideal if he wants a clean break, but feasible?

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, Leveller said:

Isn't there the possibility he could sell the football team and stadium, but retain and continue to finance the other teams? Not ideal if he wants a clean break, but feasible?

Yes. What he - or anyone - would want though (in respect of the rugby) would be a long lease, continued branding etc, club shop space at AG, ability to take the Bears matchday revenue and so on. That probably won’t marry with a new owners plans. He’d also want a pre contract for the Flyers to use the arena if built.

Basically it’s feasible but the Bears are a nightmare logistically to split out.

[Dr Balls]

6 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

The planning challenge re Longmoor is certainly a fly in the ointment.

The whole issue of the “Sporting Quarter” and the housing development being held up by ETM wanting SL to pay £1 million for a roof for their yard is clearly another frustration. My understanding was that the building of the “Sporting Quarter” was at least in part dependent financially on the building of the houses at Longmoor. Is the land at Longmoor and for the new arena etc part of the deal on offer to new owners as well? I guess it also doesn’t help SL that the property market is at its lowest ebb for a while as well!

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, Dr Balls said:

The whole issue of the “Sporting Quarter” and the housing development being held up by ETM wanting SL to pay £1 million for a roof for their yard is clearly another frustration. My understanding was that the building of the “Sporting Quarter” was at least in part dependent financially on the building of the houses at Longmoor. Is the land at Longmoor and for the new arena etc part of the deal on offer to new owners as well? I guess it also doesn’t help SL that the property market is at its lowest ebb for a while as well!

Possibly financially in the plans but not as any planning condition would be my thinking.

From a planning perspective, i can’t see one is contingent on the other. Therefore it’s totally plausible for SL to take the money from the Longmont development and sell off the land proposed for the sporting quarter with planning to let any new owner do what they wish

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Is it viable for the football club to be it's own entity again. Is there a future for us outside of Bristol Sport? What has this "Barcelona" copycat scheme actually achieved for us, as a football club, that couldn't have been achieved outside of Bristol Sport?

Bristol Sport fundamentally is nothing like the Barcelona sporting model. If it was the members could replace its President!!

The answer to the question there is nothing. It is not necessary to create a separate company, a separate brand and entity to run commercials etc.