More Questions Than Answers

[Silvio Dante]

I posted at HT in the matchday thread that it was the best half of football under Liam - and one of the best of the season. Nobody could dispute that and if the game ends at 8:30, or if Tommy puts away one of two very good chances, or if there’s not a worldie save, again we’d be having a different conversation tonight.

But we’re not. 
 

The second half was as bad as it’s been this season. I’ve no doubt Liam asked them to keep doing what they were, but Southampton, as Boro did on Saturday, changed. Quicker press, quicker pace, and we didn’t react. Maybe that’s due to the players - maybe that’s due to the manager - but that’s now twice in a row we’ve been caught cold.

There are undoubted positive signs here. The first half has improved over the three games to date which gives me confidence Liam can get a message across on the training pitch and construct a good team. Against that, the second half has got progressively worse week on week. We had a good 20 post TGH entering against QPR, were largely under pressure against Boro and were dire today (against noted progressively better opponents).

There are a lot of questions at the moment. The key one for me is that we undoubtedly have a very good coach in initial setup but appear to have a glaring inability to react. And I’ll say again, Liam couldn’t turn MK Dons around when things weren’t working to his plan.

I’m not hitting the panic button yet. But I am seeing a pattern. And that pattern needs to change soon.

[bcfc01]

I'm writing off the QPR game as a couple of days training is ridiculous to think any real impact could be made - and yet, there were signs of progress in that game. But its a write off as far as I am concerned.

So Boro and a win, a good one at that.

And now just the third game (second really).

We weren't dire, we were playing a team with better players, better squad, just down from the EPL and we matched them for large parts of the game. They stepped it up second half and we were second best because of it.

Expected result for me, but we could have won had Conway buried two gilt edged chances.

Smal margins.

Lots of positives from tonight, but also a lot to work on.

 

 

[Kibs]

Theres lots of points to counter the view that this is a problem pattern.

1. Its far more common in the Championship for games/performances to swing, rather than a team dominate the whole game.

2. This criticism was also levelled at NP a lot (playing well for half a game/periods of games).

3. We have played 2 top teams in three days with significantly fewer, and lower quality resources available than what they have, to change the game and momentum of the game.

4. you have to take your chances when you are on top. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Kibs

[Mr Popodopolous]

A problem here is that we seem to start halves slowly.

3 goals conceded in the first 10 mins of the 2nd half across 2 games, blip or trend. We seem to come out a bit undercooked.

We early on vs Middlesbrough were quite underwhelming too.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[formerly known as ivan]

QPR = shocking (not buying this “he was only here a couple of days” rubbish, it was QPR!!!)

Boro = shocking first 30 mins, threw away a 2 goal lead early in the second half (clearly no fault of Mannings with the individual mistakes) but dug in and got the win.

Southampton = was always gonna be tough so hard to judge. But there was just nothing to get excited about.

So far I am not seeing whatever it is that we were supposed to see from Manning. He inherited a top 6 squad. Yes I’m going to be overly critical due to the circumstances around his arrival, but his arrival happened as he was supposed to be our saviour. So far it’s been 2 and a half games of dire football.

What is it about this forward thinking coach am I not getting???

[Davefevs]

Personally I’m not sure what people expected.

It’s a team with a good foundation, but lacking in real quality.  At times, just like all-season, we will have spells of good play, and spells of not so good.  Against the top teams, we will get exposed at times, like tonight, like Leicesters, like Leeds.  But we can stay in games.

All three games have been very representative of the current Bristol City team / squad / ability.  You can make a case for positivity, you can probably do the opposite.

[Northern Red]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Personally I’m not sure what people expected.

It’s a team with a good foundation, but lacking in real quality.  At times, just like all-season, we will have spells of good play, and spells of not so good.  Against the top teams, we will get exposed at times, like tonight, like Leicesters, like Leeds.  But we can stay in games.

All three games have been very representative of the current Bristol City team / squad / ability.  You can make a case for positivity, you can probably do the opposite.

Spot on, and I would suggest that anybody doing so definitively in either direction is coming at it from an already skewed viewpoint.

[1team]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Personally I’m not sure what people expected.

It’s a team with a good foundation, but lacking in real quality.  At times, just like all-season, we will have spells of good play, and spells of not so good.  Against the top teams, we will get exposed at times, like tonight, like Leicesters, like Leeds.  But we can stay in games.

All three games have been very representative of the current Bristol City team / squad / ability.  You can make a case for positivity, you can probably do the opposite.

Just another example of how pointless changing  the manager was. 

[BCFC Rich]

I think it gave lots of answers. 1st half we were patient and took the backward pass unless there was a good option on and kept the ball. Second half we constantly played more direct and didn't get into the game. 1st half felt like what LM wants and 2nd looked like we panicked after going behind and lost the game plan. It was the first time we've been behind since LM arrived and players need to show more commitment/belief in the style of play.  

[Bs4Red]

24 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I posted at HT in the matchday thread that it was the best half of football under Liam - and one of the best of the season. Nobody could dispute that and if the game ends at 8:30, or if Tommy puts away one of two very good chances, or if there’s not a worldie save, again we’d be having a different conversation tonight.

But we’re not. 
 

The second half was as bad as it’s been this season. I’ve no doubt Liam asked them to keep doing what they were, but Southampton, as Boro did on Saturday, changed. Quicker press, quicker pace, and we didn’t react. Maybe that’s due to the players - maybe that’s due to the manager - but that’s now twice in a row we’ve been caught cold.

There are undoubted positive signs here. The first half has improved over the three games to date which gives me confidence Liam can get a message across on the training pitch and construct a good team. Against that, the second half has got progressively worse week on week. We had a good 20 post TGH entering against QPR, were largely under pressure against Boro and were dire today (against noted progressively better opponents).

There are a lot of questions at the moment. The key one for me is that we undoubtedly have a very good coach in initial setup but appear to have a glaring inability to react. And I’ll say again, Liam couldn’t turn MK Dons around when things weren’t working to his plan.

I’m not hitting the panic button yet. But I am seeing a pattern. And that pattern needs to change soon.

Mental how you’ve gone back to MK Dons as your benchmark and not what come after.

 

I think Saints and Martin are an absolute prime example of giving someone an opportunity to make their mark. 
 

So many positives tonight, we just got beat by a better side. 

[Kid in the Riot]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Personally I’m not sure what people expected.

It’s a team with a good foundation, but lacking in real quality.  At times, just like all-season, we will have spells of good play, and spells of not so good.  Against the top teams, we will get exposed at times, like tonight, like Leicesters, like Leeds.  But we can stay in games.

All three games have been very representative of the current Bristol City team / squad / ability.  You can make a case for positivity, you can probably do the opposite.

Well said. Some of the conclusions being drawn at the moment are quite unbelievable.

I reckon Liam has had no more than 5 or 6 days on the training ground with the full squad, given players being away on international duty.

Same injuries, same deficient squad, but apparently we're expecting different performances and results...very funny. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

My early concern is thst we also used to play well under LJ but when we needed to change plan, we didn't have a plan. 

But I hope that over the next few games we can see some adaptability. 

[reddoc]

Expected to lose tonight, think we're rose colouring the first half, few good chances but Southampton largely controlled the game. What concerned me was the subs. Saturday he got it right. Cornick great for running down a game. But Cornick/Weimann when we're chasing it? We were looking at half chances at best and Conway/Bell/Sykes are always more likely to finish one of those.

Edited November 29, 2023 by reddoc

[transfer reader]

23 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

QPR = shocking (not buying this “he was only here a couple of days” rubbish, it was QPR!!!)

Boro = shocking first 30 mins, threw away a 2 goal lead early in the second half (clearly no fault of Mannings with the individual mistakes) but dug in and got the win.

Southampton = was always gonna be tough so hard to judge. But there was just nothing to get excited about.

So far I am not seeing whatever it is that we were supposed to see from Manning. He inherited a top 6 squad. Yes I’m going to be overly critical due to the circumstances around his arrival, but his arrival happened as he was supposed to be our saviour. So far it’s been 2 and a half games of dire football.

What is it about this forward thinking coach am I not getting???

How did QPR do last night?

Edited November 29, 2023 by transfer reader

[Dolman_Stand]

3 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Well said. Some of the conclusions being drawn at the moment are quite unbelievable.

I reckon Liam has had no more than 5 or 6 days on the training ground with the full squad, given players being away on international duty.

Same injuries, same deficient squad, but apparently we're expecting different performances and results...very funny. 

In fairness and as an overall statement rather than just for tonights game if we werent expecting different performances then we shouldn't have made the change.

I thought we looked decent tonight and matched a more than decent team for most of the game, they scored a worldie and we missed the better chances we made, it feels like we have a bit of a glass ceiling where we're never going to be able to beat the bigger / parachute clubs regardless of who's in charge or how well coached we are because we just don't have the same quality to be able to lay a glove on these teams.

[Graham76]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My early concern is thst we also used to play well under LJ but when we needed to change plan, we didn't have a plan. 

But I hope that over the next few games we can see some adaptability. 

I thought this too when we started to hoof hopeless balls up the field. We didnt seem to know how to react.

[formerly known as ivan]

Just now, transfer reader said:

How did QPR do last night?

Not relevant 

[formerly known as ivan]

10 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Well said. Some of the conclusions being drawn at the moment are quite unbelievable.

I reckon Liam has had no more than 5 or 6 days on the training ground with the full squad, given players being away on international duty.

Same injuries, same deficient squad, but apparently we're expecting different performances and results...very funny. 

Is that the reason for the change in management though? Why make the change and expect the same results?

If it’s about slow progress, again, why make the change?

[LondonBristolian]

I feel there are things to build on and things to work on. First half we looked fluid, passed well and created opportunities

 

But even then, there were some poor choices. A lot has been made of the opportunities missed but there were defensive misjudgements too. At one point Tanner sprinted for a ball he was never going to get and left a gaping hole at right back that thankfully was not exploited and Vyner’s block from Armstrong - exceptional though it was - only happened because we had spent too long playing across the back - Vyner to Dickie to Naismith when Vyner could have quickly moved the Naismith without going to Dickie and given him far more space and time on the ball.

Second half, I’d disgree that Manning had no plan to change things. He made subs and adjusted our style to get the hall forward quicker and we had three or four good breaks.

What let us down - as it so often did under Pearson - was players taking too long to make a decision and/or making the wrong decision. Cornick and Mehmeti were both culpable of squandering great positions. That’s not new and it is not something I expect a manager to fix in three games. The question is whether we have players who can be coached into making better decisions over time. 

[transfer reader]

Just now, formerly known as ivan said:

Not relevant 

Course it is.

They've had a marked upturn in form since changing manager (not that that would be hard from their previous form).

Since cifuentes was appointed they've lost just 1 game, so does that make Alex Neil useless?

He'd been at Stoke more than 3 days before they played QPR and got a much worse result after all

[LondonBristolian]

6 minutes ago, reddoc said:

Expected to lose tonight, think we're rose colouring the first half, few good chances but Southampton largely controlled the game. What concerned me was the subs. Saturday he got it right. Cornick great for running down a game. But Cornick/Weimann when we're chasing it? We were looking at half chances at best and Conway/Bell/Sykes are always more likely to finish one of those.

In fairness, Bell and Conway hadn’t seen the ball for about ten minutes. I’m not sure they were in danger of getting more chances to finish. Realistically our attacking options were the players who came on and Yeboah. I rate Yeboah but it is a big ask to expect a kid his age to change the game too. 
 

Manning had to change something as we were completely out the game and there weren’t many options. We looked better after the changes than in the first fifteen mins of the half. I’d have liked better subs but we’d have needed better options.

[Kid in the Riot]

6 minutes ago, Dolman_Stand said:

In fairness and as an overall statement rather than just for tonights game if we werent expecting different performances then we shouldn't have made the change.

 

4 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Is that the reason for the change in management though? Why make the change and expect the same results?

If it’s about slow progress, again, why make the change?

Come on gents, no-one still thinks the sole reason Nige was sacked was because of results, do they? 

He was sacked because the Lansdowns found him difficult and intractable. 

And because he hadn't appeared at training for six weeks because he couldn't walk and had no prognosis.

Now we can all cry till the cows come home, but those were the reasons. Not ******* results - we were 8th four days before he was sacked. And you think he was sacked for being 8th? A few pts off the play offs? Come on... 

No-one should be dumb enough to believe that shite. 

[maxjak]

22 minutes ago, 1team said:

Just another example of how pointless changing  the manager was. 

NP had 30 or so   months..............LM hasnt even had a month?  Give it a rest

[Better Red]

Two games.

Boro and Southampton 3 points not a bad return.

Far to early to judge him.

Needs a chance to assess and also maybe bring in a few players.

Our squad is so thin that any manager will find it difficult to just change the style over night.

I did see more tendency for the midfielder receiving  the ball to play quicker forward and some of the pattens of play when playing out from the back we did look better.

But this is the Championship not Div 1 so the opposition have much better players and they are better coached so the impact gets harder as you go up the leagues.

We will need at least 3 or 4 new players before/if he’s coaching will have the impact needed for us to make it to the next step.

Better coaching plus better players normally equals better results and a better league position.

Lets see if the players he brings in can deliver his coaching vision.

Now it’s down to the board to back their man. If they don’t give him the funds to allow him to deliver the team he wants then not sure we can criticise him to much.

For me the sacking of Nige is more about what the board do in terms of backing the new manager more than the actual manager themselves.

Nige built a great foundation for the club to be taken on to the next level. 
 

With a good manager and a good board we could progress but we do need both.

[eardun]

Judging by some of the comments on here, some fans think we should change  manager every 3 games. Talk of a worrying pattern after just 3 games is laughable and, frankly, weird. 

[Edgy Red]

30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Personally I’m not sure what people expected.

It’s a team with a good foundation, but lacking in real quality.  At times, just like all-season, we will have spells of good play, and spells of not so good.  Against the top teams, we will get exposed at times, like tonight, like Leicesters, like Leeds.  But we can stay in games.

All three games have been very representative of the current Bristol City team / squad / ability.  You can make a case for positivity, you can probably do the opposite.

Thank you Dave... a voice of reason!

It will take Manning a few months to put his stamp on the team and recruit a few players of his choice to try and improve things.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, eardun said:

Judging by some of the comments on here, some fans think we should change  manager every 3 games. Talk of a worrying pattern after just 3 games is laughable and, frankly, weird. 

Birmimgham fans or some of them were booing Rooney after 2, being 2 games, 2 losses and the 2nd being his first home game.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12674439/Birmingham-fans-tell-Wayne-Rooney-f-America-Blues-booed-second-straight-defeat-former-Man-United-star-replaced-John-Eustace.html

That aside, Manning and a honeymoon period. Well there ain't going to be much of one due to how NP was sacked, the way in which it was done and the expectations outlined therein.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Bs4Red]

6 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

Come on gents, no-one still thinks the sole reason Nige was sacked was because of results, do they? 

He was sacked because the Lansdowns found him difficult and intractable. 

And because he hadn't appeared at training for six weeks because he couldn't walk and had no prognosis.

Now we can all cry till the cows come home, but those were the reasons. Not ******* results - we were 8th four days before he was sacked. And you think he was sacked for being 8th? A few pts off the play offs? Come on... 

No-one should be dumb enough to believe that shite. 

Because we played such liquid football  under NP and his results were so good. Muppet

[GrahamC]

5 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

In fairness, Bell and Conway hadn’t seen the ball for about ten minutes. I’m not sure they were in danger of getting more chances to finish. Realistically our attacking options were the players who came on and Yeboah. I rate Yeboah but it is a big ask to expect a kid his age to change the game too. 
 

Manning had to change something as we were completely out the game and there weren’t many options. We looked better after the changes than in the first fifteen mins of the half. I’d have liked better subs but we’d have needed better options.

Totally.

Also we only had 7 subs tonight, we used 4, so the 3 left (Knight-Lebel, Yeboah & Bajic) haven’t started a single football league game between them.

With a couple of injuries we look shorter of numbers than anyone else in the division.

Manning knows this, so he isn’t putting kids he thinks are nowhere near the standard on the bench to pad it out, the way Pearson sometimes did.

Tinnion might pretend we have loads of U21s that are ready to step up but our head coach clearly doesn’t think so.

[Galley is our king]

7 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

Come on gents, no-one still thinks the sole reason Nige was sacked was because of results, do they? 

He was sacked because the Lansdowns found him difficult and intractable. 

And because he hadn't appeared at training for six weeks because he couldn't walk and had no prognosis.

Now we can all cry till the cows come home, but those were the reasons. Not ******* results - we were 8th four days before he was sacked. And you think he was sacked for being 8th? A few pts off the play offs? Come on... 

No-one should be dumb enough to believe that shite. 

Oh you are absolutely right but those LIES were what the powers that be trotted out.

Shameful. Neither JL or BT should be anywhere near running the club.