Blip or trend- our starts to halves under Manning

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's a low sample size what with only 4 games and 8 halves to go on..but what do we think so far.

0-20 minutes seems reasonable. Could be partially attributed to adjustments to a new style Idk.

QPR Away

1st Half

0 Shots apiece, 48.2% Possession

0 goals Gor or Against

2nd Half

1 Shot For, 4 Against- 42.1% Possession

0 goals For or Against

Middlesbrough Home

1st Half

1 Shot For, 1 Against- 55.1% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

2nd Half

2 Shots For, 3 Against-43.5% Possession

0 Goals for, 2 Against

Southampton Away

1st Half

1 Shot For, 2 Against- 34.2% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

2nd Half

0 Shots For, 3 Against- 25.2% Possession

0 Goals For, 1 Against

Norwich Home

1st Half

1 Shot For, 4 Against- 53.4% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

2nd Half

1 Shot For, 5 Against- 52.6% Possession

0 Goals For, 1 Against

Do we have a problem?

Edited December 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[bcfc01]

Are those stats correct...

[Mr Popodopolous]

If the site I used is accurate, it was via Whoscored 

I went through them last night as I was wondering if we are a bit passive at the start of halves...The 2nd Half goals conceded are the main focus but first 20 mins of both if accurate seems a bit underwhelming.

[NcnsBcfc]

12 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's a low sample size what with only 4 games and 8 halves to go on..but what do we think so far.

0-20 minutes seems reasonable. Could be partially attributed to adjustments to a new style Idk.

QPR Away

1st Half

0 Shots apiece, 48.2% Possession

0 goals Gor or Against

2nd Half

1 Shot For, 4 Against- 42.1% Possession

0 goals For or Against

Middlesbrough Home

1st Half

1 Shot For, 1 Against- 55.1% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

2nd Half

2 Shots For, 3 Against-43.5% Possession

0 Goals for, 2 Against

Southampton Away

1st Half

1 Shot For, 2 Against- 34.2% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

2nd Half

0 Shots For, 3 Against- 25.2% Possession

0 Goals For, 1 Against

Norwich Home

1st Half

1 Shot For, 4 Against- 53.4% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

2nd Half

1 Shot For, 5 Against- 52.6% Possession

0 Goals For, 1 Against

Do we have a problem?

Bit confused on your stats there?

I have our first half yesterday as 10 shots, 5 on target, Southampton 4 shots, 1 on target, Middlesbrough 6 shots, 6 on target.

[bcfc01]

9 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Bit confused on your stats there?

I have our first half yesterday as 10 shots, 5 on target, Southampton 4 shots, 1 on target, Middlesbrough 6 shots, 6 on target.

Yep.

And we scored 3 against Boro and 1 against Norwich if I remember correctly (or am I reading those stats wrong)..

Yesterdays alternative facts;

https://www.flashscore.co.uk/match/xMsxLCJj/#/match-summary/match-statistics/0

Edited December 4, 2023 by bcfc01

[Silvio Dante]

I said my piece on this on the below thread and haven’t got a huge amount to add. I think Liam is probably a football anorak and does huge amount of work to get us set up well but seems to have an issue in turning things around when other coaches adapt- it’s not a half time thing for me but a game management thing:

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Bit confused on your stats there?

I have our first half yesterday as 10 shots, 5 on target, Southampton 4 shots, 1 on target, Middlesbrough 6 shots, 6 on target.

I'll go back and look again..

My stats cover the first 20 mins of each half. We seem to start slowly.

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

I said my piece on this on the below thread and haven’t got a huge amount to add. I think Liam is probably a football anorak and does huge amount of work to get us set up well but seems to have an issue in turning things around when other coaches adapt- it’s not a half time thing for me but a game management thing:

 

Yet the start of the first half is often quite underwhelming too.

[bcfc01]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If the site I used is accurate, it was via Whoscored 

I went through them last night as I was wondering if we are a bit passive at the start of halves...The 2nd Half goals conceded are the main focus but first 20 mins of both if accurate seems a bit underwhelming.

I get the stats now 

But there is nothing to compare in order to call it a blip.

Unless you are comparing to games pre-Manning ?

And is 3 games a trend (I'm not counting the QPR game after 2 or 3 training sessions) ?

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by bcfc01

[NcnsBcfc]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'll go back and look again..

My stats cover the first 20 mins of each half. We seem to start slowly.

Yet the start of the first half is often quite underwhelming too.

Ah, apologies I've read that wrong then.

I was reading as to the first half as a whole. 

I've no doubt your stats are as right as your FFP figures... 

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

I get the stats now 

But there is nothing to compare in order to call it a blip.

Unless you are comparing to games pre-Manning ?

And is 3 games a trend (I'm not counting the QPR game after 2 or 3 training sessions) ?

 

Okay I'll have a look at the prior few then. Maybe it as are adjust to a new style of play but it does feel like we are a bit quiet or passive from the off. If we steadily get stronger that can help.

I will say vs Coventry for good periods of first half we were right up against it for balance, perhaps the shape played a role as we switched to a back 3 our of the blue..wilm check the Sheffield Wednesday, Cardiff, Ipswich games.

Game can get away from a side if they start slowly is a concern for me. If they ride the wave more often than not and grow into it then that is different. It worked v Middlesbrough, not so much v Norwich.

[Davefevs]

FWIW, here’s my stats, from Opta (TheAnalyst website):

Green / Red shading = better / worse

We are spending slightly longer on the ball, and making slightly more passes per passing sequence.

But we are moving it forward slower.

We are making slightly more 10+ passing sequences / build-up attacks.

But are making less direct attacks.

(attacks are possessions that end up with a touch in the box or a shot)

Pressing is more blocking than high pressing.  We are allowing opponents more passes.

We are achieving quite a lot less turnovers in opposition third.

All attacking metrics down.  Some are skewed by QPR to an extent, so will watch this one game get smoothed out over next 2-3 games.

*Penalties (penalty) not included.

Defensive stats the opposite.  Ditto re QPR.

*Penalties and OGs not included.  

++++++

I’d say these are pretty representative of what we’ve witnessed.

Thoughts?

[22A]

13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's a low sample size what with only 4 games and 8 halves to go on..but what do we think so far.

0-20 minutes seems reasonable. Could be partially attributed to adjustments to a new style Idk.

Middlesbrough Home

1st Half

1 Shot For, 1 Against- 55.1% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

2nd Half

2 Shots For, 3 Against-43.5% Possession

0 Goals for, 2 Against

Norwich Home

1st Half

1 Shot For, 4 Against- 53.4% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

2nd Half

1 Shot For, 5 Against- 52.6% Possession

0 Goals For, 1 Against

Do we have a problem?

How were these stats compiled please?

M'brough; 2 goals 1st half and another in the 2nd.

Norwish we were 1-0 up at HT.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, 22A said:

How were these stats compiled please?

M'brough; 2 goals 1st half and another in the 2nd.

Norwish we were 1-0 up at HT.

Sorry yeah maybe I wasn't that clear.

I simply took the first 20 minutes of each half under Manning and checked the Shots For and Against, the Possession in those periods and the Goals For and Against in the periods covering the first 20 mins in each half.

My concern is that if we start slowly vs some of the top sides they could be out of sight. Not as simple I know but allowing shots at that rate early on as some of them hmm.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Bristol Oil Services]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I said my piece on this on the below thread and haven’t got a huge amount to add. I think Liam is probably a football anorak and does huge amount of work to get us set up well but seems to have an issue in turning things around when other coaches adapt- it’s not a half time thing for me but a game management thing:

 

Half-time is as good a time as any to "manage" a game, though, you might think

[bcfc01]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

FWIW, here’s my stats, from Opta (TheAnalyst website):

Green / Red shading = better / worse

We are spending slightly longer on the ball, and making slightly more passes per passing sequence.

But we are moving it forward slower.

We are making slightly more 10+ passing sequences / build-up attacks.

But are making less direct attacks.

(attacks are possessions that end up with a touch in the box or a shot)

Pressing is more blocking than high pressing.  We are allowing opponents more passes.

We are achieving quite a lot less turnovers in opposition third.

All attacking metrics down.  Some are skewed by QPR to an extent, so will watch this one game get smoothed out over next 2-3 games.

*Penalties (penalty) not included.

Defensive stats the opposite.  Ditto re QPR.

*Penalties and OGs not included.  

++++++

I’d say these are pretty representative of what we’ve witnessed.

Thoughts?

So  we are up on all metrics over the last 4 games except for speed of passing and those in the last spreadsheet ?

Have I got that right, as you seem to be saying the opposite in your notes ?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, bcfc01 said:

So  we are up on all metrics over the last 4 games except for speed of passing and those in the last spreadsheet ?

Have I got that right, as you seem to be saying the opposite in your notes ?

No, look at each table.

Green shading - improvement / good

Red shading - regression / bad

Table 1: improvement (if you see more passing as an improvement)

Table 2: regression

Table 3: regression + we are getting less shots under LM

Table 4: improvement + we are conceding less shots under LM

Edited December 4, 2023 by Davefevs

[bcfc01]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, look at each table.

Green shading - improvement / good

Red shading - regression / bad

Table 1: improvement (if you see more passing as an improvement)

Table 2: regression

Table 3: regression + we are getting less shots under LM

Table 4: improvement + we are conceding less shots under LM

None of it makes any sense to me, but I'll leave it there.

[Alessandro]

Interesting @Mr Popodopolous - I said in the match day thread, feels like we’re starting games slower than under NP..stats look that way too.

@Davefevs - so despite Tinnion and Lansdown talking, how many times?!, about front foot attacking football, we’re pressing less and getting less high turnovers, and we’re less direct football than under Pearson.

Out of interest Dave, do you have access to a sample of XG/chances created and conceded over pre and during Manning?

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Interesting @Mr Popodopolous - I said in the match day thread, feels like we’re starting games slower than under NP..stats look that way too.

@Davefevs - so despite Tinnion and Lansdown talking, how many times?!, about front foot attacking football, we’re pressing less and getting less high turnovers, and we’re less direct football than under Pearson.

Out of interest Dave, do you have access to a sample of XG/chances created and conceded over pre and during Manning?

Yep, it’s in the above tables too.

For us:

OPEN PLAY:

xG is down 0.25 pg

Shots are down 3.43 pg

SET-PIECES:

xG is down 0.17 pg

Shots are down 0.95 pg

TOTAL:

xG is down 0.42 pg

Shots are down 4.38 pg

For Them:

OPEN PLAY:

xG is down 0.44 pg

Shots are down 2.75 pg

SET-PIECES:

xG is down 0.09 pg

Shots are down 1.13 pg

TOTAL:

xG is down 0.53 pg

Shots are down 3.88 pg

*******************

If I was summarising, I’d say it’s less exciting if you going on chances alone, basically chances created , chances created also.

If you took the QPR game out of the mix, you would probably see fairly similar stuff.  In a few games we will see the skew of the dire QPR numbers on both sides become less impactful on the overall numbers.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Back to my more simplistic stats for the 4 games predating Manning:

0-20 mins and the first 20 mins of the 2nd Half.

Coventry Home

1st Half

0 Shots For, 5 Against- 25.4% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

2nd Half

2 Shots For, 2 Against- 33.2% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

Ipswich Home

1st Half

2 Shots For, 7 Against- 39.6% Possession

0 Goals For, 1 Against

2nd Half

1 Shot For, 6 Against- 46.2% Possession

0 Goals For 0 Against

Cardiff Away

1st Half

3 Shots For, 1 Against- 32.5% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

2nd Half

3 Shots For, 2 Against- 54.6% Possession

0 Goals For or Against

Sheffield Wednesday Home

1st Half

4 Shots For, 0 Against- 57.3% Possession

0 Goals for OR Against

2nd Half

4 Shots For, 1 Against- 72.5% Possession

1 Goal for, 0 Against

Heavily caveat the last one with the fact that we were up against 10 albeit the first 20 mins still 11 v 11.

Wasn't the land of great things pre Manning but our start to halves appears to be regressing.

[Alessandro]

Thanks @Davefevs - just interested to see those as I’ve been amazed at quite a few comments on here and social media that have concluded the “football is better” under Manning.

I said on another thread it’s certainly different, but is different better?

On goals scored, attacking football/chances created - all things we want to see and were sold by the board, it’s currently trending down.

Perhaps people being deceived by increased possession (at times)…but I guess that as you say QPR skewed the stats a bit - let’s see after next few games 

[ashton_fan]

Certainly against Norwich they changed tactics after half time pushing more players forward and playing the ball longer over the top of our high defensive line, they had more joy doing that than trying to play through us. Since some of our defenders aren't that quick other teams are likely to do the same once they've sussed us out so we may need to adjust our formation when that happens.

[Gert Mare]

So in a nutshell (according to the stats) we’re slower, and have sacrificed trying to win matches with ‘Chuckle Brother’ passing?

Cosmic!

That correlates with what I was watching on Sunday, coupled with the flat atmosphere.

[TonyTonyTony]

Interesting stuff as usual @Davefevs, but far too early to be drawing any conclusions. I reckon 15/20 games worth of data needed

[bearded_red]

5 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Thanks @Davefevs - just interested to see those as I’ve been amazed at quite a few comments on here and social media that have concluded the “football is better” under Manning.

This has also surprised me. 
 

What ‘better’ is is obviously subjective, one man’s attacking, gung ho football is another’s kick and rush. One man’s cultured, modern possession is another man’s mind numbingly dull tippy tappy rubbish.

However, of all the people I talk to about City, with various different views on the current state of the club (Lansdowns, Pearson, this squad etc), all of them have found the football incredibly dull. In fact at halftime on Sunday, while winning obviously, I bumped into a lad I used to play football with, haven’t spoken to him in a couple of years, first thing he said.. ‘Jesus, this is ******* boring isn’t it’. All I could hear from people around me at the game on Sunday was moaning how crap it was.

I know during the reaction to Pearson leaving there was an accusation that the views on this forum in no way reflected the wider fan base, but in my experience the views on here that are positive about the football played so far under Manning are completely at odds with everyone I’ve spoken to that doesn’t post on here.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

This has also surprised me. 
 

What ‘better’ is is obviously subjective, one man’s attacking, gung ho football is another’s kick and rush. One man’s cultured, modern possession is another man’s mind numbingly dull tippy tappy rubbish.

However, of all the people I talk to about City, with various different views on the current state of the club (Lansdowns, Pearson, this squad etc), all of them have found the football incredibly dull. In fact at halftime on Sunday, while winning obviously, I bumped into a lad I used to play football with, haven’t spoken to him in a couple of years, first thing he said.. ‘Jesus, this is ******* boring isn’t it’. All I could hear from people around me at the game on Sunday was moaning how crap it was.

I know during the reaction to Pearson leaving there was an accusation that the views on this forum in no way reflected the wider fan base, but in my experience the views on here that are positive about the football played so far under Manning are completely at odds with everyone I’ve spoken to that doesn’t post on here.

 

This is it, just flat wasn't it. Soporific for good periods- the crowd reflected it.

Should we more press with more intensity out of possession? That usually helps and in theory, keeping the ball for good periods can conserve energy for the intensity when you don't have it.

[Davefevs]

11 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Thanks @Davefevs - just interested to see those as I’ve been amazed at quite a few comments on here and social media that have concluded the “football is better” under Manning.

I said on another thread it’s certainly different, but is different better?

On goals scored, attacking football/chances created - all things we want to see and were sold by the board, it’s currently trending down.

Perhaps people being deceived by increased possession (at times)…but I guess that as you say QPR skewed the stats a bit - let’s see after next few games 

Yep, I’ve now watched the game back, drawn my pics…and posted on the Norwich MDT.  Have a read of what I saw and then wrote.

9 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

Certainly against Norwich they changed tactics after half time pushing more players forward and playing the ball longer over the top of our high defensive line, they had more joy doing that than trying to play through us. Since some of our defenders aren't that quick other teams are likely to do the same once they've sussed us out so we may need to adjust our formation when that happens.

Did they change their tactics at half-time?

Or did we allow them time of the ball because we were passive?  To me they just showed a bit more urgency, as they were 1-0 down.

They didn’t really play over the top til Idah came on.  But if you give Sara time on the ball and also opportunity for players to run off him, they will.  You have to put pressure on the passer.  And we didn’t!  I thought “with the ball” second half we were decent though.

5 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Interesting stuff as usual @Davefevs, but far too early to be drawing any conclusions. I reckon 15/20 games worth of data needed

Just as well I’m not then!

[Port Said Red]

Blip

[Mr Popodopolous]

Was much better today in the first 20 of both halves. That's a plus.

Caveated with Huddersfield being of questionable quality and not the most proactive of sides but it was better.

[Never to the dark side]

Thought I saw somewhere that Liam Manning was featured on football focus,although I can't now find the posting.