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[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

One of the current oddities about Manning to date is that notwithstanding his reputation AFAIK he’s not brought through any academy players to the first team at either MK Dons or Oxford.
 

Noting that a “pathway” relies on either ability (the academy players are good enough) or necessity (we have nobody else), if that doesn’t change here then I think it’s a bigger threat to the academy than the broader restructure - the academy does the right thing currently and there is no reason to change that. But its success relies both on a good youth system and a manager with the courage to use it - even if that means you “trial” players in the first team that might be ready.

With all of these things the qualification of “not brought through any academy players” is needed to avoid nit-pickers like me!!!

“Brought through”

Is that given first team debut to?

What about a young player who made a solitary appearance under someone else, but then become a feature of Manning’s team?

Or maybe a player signed into academy by someone else, but given his debut under Manning.

Don't get me wrong, on the face of it (Transfermarkt) it does appear that he’s reached out to other clubs to loan young players, rather than internally.

How would you categorise Steven Negru?  Signed from Ireland in Jan, aged 20, by the previous manager, made debut under Manning.

Or Tyler Goodram, an Academy player already playing under the previous manager, and continued under Manning? Or Gaitlin O’Donkor?

If it’s as black and white as “academy player, debut given” that’s fine.  But there’s possibly some nuance to the overall “uses academy” question.

I didnt go back to MK Dons.

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

With all of these things the qualification of “not brought through any academy players” is needed to avoid nit-pickers like me!!!

“Brought through”

Is that given first team debut to?

What about a young player who made a solitary appearance under someone else, but then become a feature of Manning’s team?

Or maybe a player signed into academy by someone else, but given his debut under Manning.

Don't get me wrong, on the face of it (Transfermarkt) it does appear that he’s reached out to other clubs to loan young players, rather than internally.

How would you categorise Steven Negru?  Signed from Ireland in Jan, aged 20, by the previous manager, made debut under Manning.

Or Tyler Goodram, an Academy player already playing under the previous manager, and continued under Manning? Or Gaitlin O’Donkor?

If it’s as black and white as “academy player, debut given” that’s fine.  But there’s possibly some nuance to the overall “uses academy” question.

I didnt go back to MK Dons.

You know I love your nitpicking Dave (and I will qualify this by saying I looked at Wiki so source may not be reliable)!

I think (and for everyone it will differ) that clubs of the size of Oxford and Dons rarely sign players to go into their academy - simply enough in the words of Mick Hucknall “monies too tight to mention” - so most signings you have to assume are for the first team squad unless by specific exception. Similarly someone like Odonkor has been kicking around the first team squad for years at Oxford (sure I remember him playing at 15 or similar), so although he’s “academy” as soon as they’ve played 5-6 games then they tend to be seen as a first team squad player at that level.

However, I totally acknowledge that they may have had an equivalent of an Omar Taylor-Clark who played in the first team then dropped back down - but this is probably less likely at a lower level simply because the squads are smaller (and hence arguably it should be more easy to play academy players)

My broad brush was looking at players who he’d given debut to then played more than 1-2 games (again, per wiki so normal caveats apply) and that was a zero. Without in depth knowledge of all players at Dons or Oxford (and I am totally prepared to take a different view from anyone with more knowledge of those clubs) that seemed to be a sensible metric considering club size/nature.

Again, not saying good/bad (wholly plausible both Dons and Oxfords academies are skipfires), just flagging the oddity.

[Davefevs]

52 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

You know I love your nitpicking Dave (and I will qualify this by saying I looked at Wiki so source may not be reliable)!

I think (and for everyone it will differ) that clubs of the size of Oxford and Dons rarely sign players to go into their academy - simply enough in the words of Mick Hucknall “monies too tight to mention” - so most signings you have to assume are for the first team squad unless by specific exception. Similarly someone like Odonkor has been kicking around the first team squad for years at Oxford (sure I remember him playing at 15 or similar), so although he’s “academy” as soon as they’ve played 5-6 games then they tend to be seen as a first team squad player at that level.

However, I totally acknowledge that they may have had an equivalent of an Omar Taylor-Clark who played in the first team then dropped back down - but this is probably less likely at a lower level simply because the squads are smaller (and hence arguably it should be more easy to play academy players)

My broad brush was looking at players who he’d given debut to then played more than 1-2 games (again, per wiki so normal caveats apply) and that was a zero. Without in depth knowledge of all players at Dons or Oxford (and I am totally prepared to take a different view from anyone with more knowledge of those clubs) that seemed to be a sensible metric considering club size/nature.

Again, not saying good/bad (wholly plausible both Dons and Oxfords academies are skipfires), just flagging the oddity.

Ta.  I wasn’t arguing either.  There is an overarching sense from us outsiders looking in that he reached out to other clubs for young players.

We can compare that to Nige, who probably gave more debuts than he would’ve had he had a slightly deeper squad.

[Silvio Dante]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ta.  I wasn’t arguing either.  There is an overarching sense from us outsiders looking in that he reached out to other clubs for young players.

We can compare that to Nige, who probably gave more debuts than he would’ve had he had a slightly deeper squad.

Didn’t think you were, and I think the view I have is the same - it’s players from other clubs and a fair amount of loans. I intuitively don’t like those as they’re not “yours” so I don’t think it works as a strategy long term but sometimes, obviously, needs must.

That also chimes with what the Ipswich fan was saying on the other thread about how McKenna liked to work (players from top other academies who had lost way) and that Manning was cut from the same cloth (and tbh that makes sense - on a broad basis there will be more quality in Arsenals academy than City’s)

None of this makes him a bad manager, but it is pretty clear that he doesn’t at face value tick the requirements the board gave - use of academy, front foot attacking football (although that’s a cliche) etc. I’m finding the Foxpunter stuff helpful as well as it both explains and also probably reinforces my concerns over inability to adapt.
 

You then add in our Ipswich friends observation of Liam needing time to implement and we’re probably back to where we seem to circle back to a lot - he might well be decent ultimately but he’s clearly not what was positioned. Rod for own back etc,

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Didn’t think you were, and I think the view I have is the same - it’s players from other clubs and a fair amount of loans. I intuitively don’t like those as they’re not “yours” so I don’t think it works as a strategy long term but sometimes, obviously, needs must.

That also chimes with what the Ipswich fan was saying on the other thread about how McKenna liked to work (players from top other academies who had lost way) and that Manning was cut from the same cloth (and tbh that makes sense - on a broad basis there will be more quality in Arsenals academy than City’s)

None of this makes him a bad manager, but it is pretty clear that he doesn’t at face value tick the requirements the board gave - use of academy, front foot attacking football (although that’s a cliche) etc. I’m finding the Foxpunter stuff helpful as well as it both explains and also probably reinforces my concerns over inability to adapt.
 

You then add in our Ipswich friends observation of Liam needing time to implement and we’re probably back to where we seem to circle back to a lot - he might well be decent ultimately but he’s clearly not what was positioned. Rod for own back etc,

Fox’s stuff is great isn’t it?  I don’t profess to understand it all, but he makes it fit beautifully to what we think of these managers.

Going back to loans, there is a huge difference in the profile of loan players you go for in Lg1 v Champ.  As a big generalisation, in Lg1 you are often taking players on their “first senior loan”, you are probably getting offered them, because their clubs want them to get minutes.  Those clubs are happy to offer them for somewhere between nil and minimal wage contribution, they just want them to get minutes.  Cynically they probably don’t care too much about the loan club’s success either, it’s all about their players getting minutes.

So, build a good relationship with a few clubs and you get a good set of offers of players to take on loan.

As you move into the Champ, you are starting to be the ones asking PL clubs for their next profile of players.  You want them to help you achieve.  The PL clubs know that and if you’re in that market you are starting to pay significant loan fees and big wage contributions.  Suddenly it’s not you doing the Host Club a favour, it’s them doing you one, and they expect to be financially covered for their “generosity”!

It’s a whole different ball game!

We currently have nobody in our hierarchy with experience of dealing with these sorts of players…1) because we haven’t loaned anyone (bar TGH - and was from a Champ rival) from the PL, and 2) the people in role weren’t in role the last time we did (under Holden).

So, if LM is gonna go into the loan market I will be particularly interested what type of profile he goes for.

Finally, there is a bit of a sweet-spot for the type of loanees we might want and who we are not gonna have to overpay for and those are the ones who’ve had a loan, didn’t smash it, but are undervalued as a result, but need a second loan, or are getting fidgety about staying at their Host Club.

I’d put put Liam Delap and Charlie Patino in that bracket.  Delap a bit ordinary at Stoke, looks a different player at Hull.  Patino, bit of a luxury at struggling Blackpool, looks much more mature at Swansea, plus his long term future at Arsenal is in doubt.  I’m sure there are other examples.

If we start hearing rumours of Delap and Patino types, then I will be positive.  But typically, you get these in the summer window, that’s the issue.

[Silvio Dante]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Fox’s stuff is great isn’t it?  I don’t profess to understand it all, but he makes it fit beautifully to what we think of these managers.

Going back to loans, there is a huge difference in the profile of loan players you go for in Lg1 v Champ.  As a big generalisation, in Lg1 you are often taking players on their “first senior loan”, you are probably getting offered them, because their clubs want them to get minutes.  Those clubs are happy to offer them for somewhere between nil and minimal wage contribution, they just want them to get minutes.  Cynically they probably don’t care too much about the loan club’s success either, it’s all about their players getting minutes.

So, build a good relationship with a few clubs and you get a good set of offers of players to take on loan.

As you move into the Champ, you are starting to be the ones asking PL clubs for their next profile of players.  You want them to help you achieve.  The PL clubs know that and if you’re in that market you are starting to pay significant loan fees and big wage contributions.  Suddenly it’s not you doing the Host Club a favour, it’s them doing you one, and they expect to be financially covered for their “generosity”!

It’s a whole different ball game!

We currently have nobody in our hierarchy with experience of dealing with these sorts of players…1) because we haven’t loaned anyone (bar TGH - and was from a Champ rival) from the PL, and 2) the people in role weren’t in role the last time we did (under Holden).

So, if LM is gonna go into the loan market I will be particularly interested what type of profile he goes for.

Finally, there is a bit of a sweet-spot for the type of loanees we might want and who we are not gonna have to overpay for and those are the ones who’ve had a loan, didn’t smash it, but are undervalued as a result, but need a second loan, or are getting fidgety about staying at their Host Club.

I’d put put Liam Delap and Charlie Patino in that bracket.  Delap a bit ordinary at Stoke, looks a different player at Hull.  Patino, bit of a luxury at struggling Blackpool, looks much more mature at Swansea, plus his long term future at Arsenal is in doubt.  I’m sure there are other examples.

If we start hearing rumours of Delap and Patino types, then I will be positive.  But typically, you get these in the summer window, that’s the issue.

Agree. And I really don’t want to be paying through the nose for a loan unless it’s to get you over the line - for every Tammy Abraham there are ten Ryan Kent’s and with what you get charged it’s far from the low risk:high reward strategy you can get at league one and below. Too many loanees obviously also lands you in the “constant rebuild” phase of Joey Barton…

You’re probably way ahead of me on this but it’d be interesting to see the players Liam brought in at MK Dons just to see the nature of player and whether they kicked on - we all know Twine is a big A+ but Darling was already there. Might be a weekend job!

Edit - Just had a quick look and to correct myself he didn’t sign Twine who signed under Russell Martin. One loan brought in and that was it for the summer window. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Silvio Dante

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Agree. And I really don’t want to be paying through the nose for a loan unless it’s to get you over the line - for every Tammy Abraham there are ten Ryan Kent’s and with what you get charged it’s far from the low risk:high reward strategy you can get at league one and below. Too many loanees obviously also lands you in the “constant rebuild” phase of Joey Barton…

You’re probably way ahead of me on this but it’d be interesting to see the players Liam brought in at MK Dons just to see the nature of player and whether they kicked on - we all know Twine is a big A+ but Darling was already there. Might be a weekend job!

I think that Twine might’ve been signed just before Manning was appointed.

This is transfermarkt list of Manning signings at MK.

Ive added age at signing and highlighted those still there and how many times they’ve played.  Most of the young players are still there, racking up a decent number of appearances.