The King is dead long live the King

[Silvio Dante]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

These are the challenges for me.

Can LM’s changes to the “system” bring about improvement in results (and performance level - results don’t always match / align immediately) ?  Can the processes he delivers throughout the week, translate to on the pitch outcomes.

What I see with my eyes from 6 games is two main changes, a predominantly more patient approach with the ball, and a more patient approach to winning the ball back.  This is my emerging view of LM’s approach.  My emerging conclusion re the impact of these changes, is little impact on overall performances, and a slight regression in results.  But I’d counter that by saying we should’ve got a point or two more imho, that ought to even itself out.

I will however add that in the 6th game (Blackburn) we won more high turnovers than the other 5.  Me being me, will take those 12 high turnovers (compared to a total of 24 in 5 games), store it away and see whether this is the start of improvement (ie the training has now embedded and this is the new norm for pressing), or just a one off.  Game 6 also saw Max hit a shedload of long balls too, so I’m not gonna over egg individual games.

You know I love a bit of data!  And even more a nice viz to show that data.

The Analyst website has some nice stuff, and I scrape their data for my own uses.

This is the trend of our possession style.  Plotted from Nige - thru our season average - to LM.  Basically it backs up the patience comment…longer possession sequences (x-axis), slower progress up the pitch (y-axis).

You’ll notice that under LM we are similar in possession style (numerically) to Swansea.  We are trending to Hull, and beyond them Leicester and Southampton.  In each of those 3 cases, we are talking top 6 teams…and attacking quality to fit nicely with their approach.  If we can improve the attacking outcomes from the revised approach, then we will all be happy.

The question outstanding is how do we get that improvement?

That’s what the next 5-6 games will show us, help prove it disprove the methods / system being put in.

 

Whats interesting there is how central on the axis that Ipswich are. I’d always expect Leicester and Soton to be where they are, both because of managers style of play, but more pertinently quality (I.e teams will sit in and let them have the ball).

Ipswich are bang on the mid axis for number of passes but also play far quicker than others. Many (including me) have suggested that Manning is influenced by McKenna (I believe LM may even have said this himself), but this shows a willingness to mix it up, not hold ball for the sake of ball and more importantly speed of attacks/transition. 
 

 

[Harry]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

 

Oh boy I’m so glad you posted this.

I’m happy that we are trending toward the teams in the bottom right quarter rather than those is the top left quarter. 
 

I think there is way more chance of success in this division if you play more like Southampton, Leicester, Hull, Swansea, Watford, Norwich, Boro & Sunderland than there is if were playing the sort of football that is served up by Rotherham, Sheff Weds, Birmingham, Stoke, Millwall & Preston. 
 

Long may this trend continue.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Harry

[Garland-sweden]

To sack Nigel were more than stupid. Dont dislike Manning but his CV can not be compared to Nigels. That the new manager should take us to top six as JL said is stupid or a lie. We fans can football and are not idiots. We now have a manager who dont know our leauge, playing different, strange starting eleven and substitutitens. Our form is not good six points from relegation, players without confidence, a manager who looks at the floor when presscoference is. Bad vibes but really hope we will win saturday, how, I really dont know. Feel sorry for the people Strindberg said long ago. He was a swedish writer 

[NSFF]

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Nope, it’s Chinese whispers.

Someone said LJ used it & all of a sudden Manning did.

I’m not happy but also acknowledge it is only 6 games & as you say, he isn’t going anywhere unless we go on a massive losing run or he walks (which on a three & a half year contract, he won’t).

I’m not saying that manning has asked for 3 windows and agree with what others have said that the 3 windows is a smoke screen I’m just saying that we cant  judge him this early that’s all.

 

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

33 minutes ago, spudski said:

It was implied in the past, that the Club throughout would be set up to play a certain way... throughout academy and first team. 

That recruitment for all, would be defined by that way of playing. 

That pathways would be open and not blocked. 

And that any new coach or manager would come in seamlessly, and that our way of playing wouldn't be changed dramatically. 

I look at our squad and some academy players...do any of them scream possession based football to you?

 

There are a few possibilities here.

-BT and JL thought LM fitted their brief of attacking, high press front foot football. 

- The club having identified Manning, decided they wanted to change our style to a more possesion based style.

- Manning came in and thought f it I'm just going to play my style here.

But considering those possibilities, none of them make sense either. 

Even after the appointment they stated he was the right guy to enhance our style. Never did they say there would be a change of style. 

I'm not sure it's plausible that having got the job he then decided to do what he wanted. 

I think it's probably a mix of us not doing our home work correctly on him and due to what seems a lack of serious talks some miscommunication and misunderstanding took place and him failing to understand what we wanted. 

I think there may be a little bit of he thought we were better than we are after beating his Oxford side twice quite convincingly but has since realised that other Championship sides are also pretty good too! I think he's realised the step up is massive. 

If this was what the club wanted, why wasn't that communicated? 

Something went seriously wrong in this process for there to be such a departure from what you've posted. 

[pillred]

3 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Want us to progress beyond where we was, as that was why we made the change  

Where we WERE, (please).

Edited December 14, 2023 by pillred
Spelling

[ashton_fan]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Listening to Naismiths comments, that wasn't intended! 

It seems the players have already lost faith and belief in his style and reverted to what they knew.

Naismith's comments implied he'd not been to the team talk as he said something like "perhaps they were told to play long"

[NSFF]

2 hours ago, Red Exile said:

Correct. In the context of this thread it's a phrase used by a contrarian poster who has rarely posted...has no provenance whatsoever.

So as I’ve rarely posted it makes my opinion worth less than others ? 
my provenance is home and away for 30 odd years just as I’ve no desire to type my thoughts about the price of hotdogs and where to park on Saturday means I’m contrarian ? 
Id love to be able to put on here what I’ve been told over the years by previous players, just one question  why’s tinnion never had another job in football ? 
 

 

[ashton_fan]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

For a 20 minute period when the players had clearly had enough of the insipid football they had been asked to play. Manning then put a stop to it by taking off our best 2 players.

He was trying to put some fresh legs on the pitch and save those two for Saturday as they've played so many minutes recently

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Whats interesting there is how central on the axis that Ipswich are. I’d always expect Leicester and Soton to be where they are, both because of managers style of play, but more pertinently quality (I.e teams will sit in and let them have the ball).

Ipswich are bang on the mid axis for number of passes but also play far quicker than others. Many (including me) have suggested that Manning is influenced by McKenna (I believe LM may even have said this himself), but this shows a willingness to mix it up, not hold ball for the sake of ball and more importantly speed of attacks/transition. 
 

 

It is.

Here are the numbers behind each axis.

I’ve added LM’s numbers (as the website is whole season so far), and you can see his 3.73 passes per possession is 8th.

Bit here is the big one:

LM’s 1.45 m/s (metres per second going forward) is the slowest on the Champ.

Ipswich have average possessions, but do it the 3rd quickest!  They are front foot, attack football!!!

23 minutes ago, Harry said:

Oh boy I’m so glad you posted this.

I’m happy that we are trending toward the teams in the bottom right quarter rather than those is the top left quarter. 
 

I think there is way more chance of success in this division if you play more like Southampton, Leicester, Hull, Swansea, Watford, Norwich, Boro & Sunderland than there is if were playing the sort of football that is served up by Rotherham, Sheff Weds, Birmingham, Stoke, Millwall & Preston. 
 

Long may this trend continue.

The challenge will be that all of those teams have had parachute payments or are still getting them!  Boro and Hull the longest in the last, we’re still receiving PPs in 2018-19 season.  Hard to believe that Sunderland and Hull were still getting them in 2019-20.

Will we be the exception?

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, ashton_fan said:

He was trying to put some fresh legs on the pitch and save those two for Saturday as they've played so many minutes recently

It certainly has logic, but I bet you if you asked our fans who are the “fittest” players (defining fittest isn’t easy, but just take a simple fans view for the purpose of this), most would answer Knight, Sykes, probably add Weimann in there too.

All three have been mentioned by LM as needing to be managed.  That’s why Weimann didn’t start (from LM himself).

I’m not here to suggest he’s right or wrong, just purely adding some things LM has said.  Knight hadn’t played every minute (as suggested in BP), he was taken off in 76th min versus Saints.

[stortfordred]

1 hour ago, BigAl&Toby said:

 

Anyway. I’m dreaming of a Jennifer Aniston Christmas……

Just like Tinman, she’s past her best when she takes her boots off. 

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, stortfordred said:

Just like Tinman, she’s past her best when she takes her boots off. 

Is that Luke Freeman?

[Silvio Dante]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It is.

Here are the numbers behind each axis.

I’ve added LM’s numbers (as the website is whole season so far), and you can see his 3.73 passes per possession is 8th.

Bit here is the big one:

LM’s 1.45 m/s (metres per second going forward) is the slowest on the Champ.

Ipswich have average possessions, but do it the 3rd quickest!  They are front foot, attack football!!!

The challenge will be that all of those teams have had parachute payments or are still getting them!  Boro and Hull the longest in the last, we’re still receiving PPs in 2018-19 season.  Hard to believe that Sunderland and Hull were still getting them in 2019-20.

Will we be the exception?

You know what I’m going to ask now. 
 

Overlay into that bottom chart 

Oxford (23-24 LM), Oxford (22-23 LM), Oxford (22-23 KR), MK (22-23 LM), MK (21-22 LM) and MK (20-21 RM)

(Only if you have time, obvs )

[Red Exile]

23 minutes ago, NSFF said:

So as I’ve rarely posted it makes my opinion worth less than others ? 
my provenance is home and away for 30 odd years just as I’ve no desire to type my thoughts about the price of hotdogs and where to park on Saturday means I’m contrarian ? 
Id love to be able to put on here what I’ve been told over the years by previous players, just one question  why’s tinnion never had another job in football ? 
 

 

I mean that phrase has no provenance - Manning hasn’t asked for 3 transfer windows. It is a fact that you’ve barely posted on here previously. To be fair to OTIB I don’t see much discussion of hotdogs. New posters have no less right to be heard but it seems reasonable to think that people pay more attention to those who have been in the community and regularly contributed for years. 

[exAtyeoMax]

3 hours ago, East End Old Boy said:

When I saw the name of the thread I thought you’d been reading Danny Wilson’s book!

 Blige! 

[AshtonGreat]

3 hours ago, firstdivision said:

We live in an instant social-media driven society that really has no basis in reality. The bloke has had SIX games. Of course he needs some time. Anyone would think we were any good before he took over (15th was it?). We’re just not that good.

Everyone needs to calm down a bit. What do you actually want to happen? Would you prefer us to struggle just so you can be right? 

Life is far more nuanced than you suggest. 

NP irritated the hell out of me some of the time but I always wanted us to win and I wanted him to succeed. I think the board got the timing of his sacking hopelessly wrong. But I want Liam Manning to succeed because life is too short not to want to feel happy on a Saturday and Tuesday/Wednesday evening (after a win), not angry and bitter, and harking back to a marriage that’s not going to be revived. 

I’ve seen over fifty years of this club’s football and I can’t remember a more knee-jerk reaction to a new manager. It’s been far from perfect, and deeply frustrating at times. But we’ve been in every game and could have got something from all of them. 
If we lose nine in a row - like a previously successful manager incidentally - you can fill your boots if you want. 

Exactly - we lost five out of seven before LM turned up

Edited December 14, 2023 by AshtonGreat

[bearded_red]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Manning take over a team that had been 8th a couple of weeks previously and was hailed as a top 6 squad.

Pearson took over a sh*t show that had just been humiliated 6-0 at Watford.

It is absolutely remarkable that this needs to be pointed out on a forum dedicated to talking about Bristol City isn’t it.

[stortfordred]

15 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

 Blige! 

Blige

[Sir Geoff]

59 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

He was trying to put some fresh legs on the pitch and save those two for Saturday as they've played so many minutes recently

Alf Ramsey did that once and look how that turned out.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, pillred said:

Where we WERE, (please).

8th when they decided to sack NP if we lost to Cardiff and 11th when it happened.

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, ashton_fan said:

He was trying to put some fresh legs on the pitch and save those two for Saturday as they've played so many minutes recently

I get that , specially if you have a lead to defend but we were chasing an equaliser . 
It has to be one thing at a time, you can't plan for Saturday half way through a game on Tuesday unless you're comfortable. We were pushing for an equaliser and looked like we could get one. The subs took all our momentum away needlessly .

[stortfordred]

2 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

. Anyone would think we were any good before he took over (15th was it?). We’re just not that good.

You’re bang on. Apart from moments like the first 20 against Stoke, we have badly missed Scott and Semenyo in terms of really creating anything. 
This ‘project’ (sorry) was pretty much doomed (or at least limited to mid table at best) once those two were sold. 
NP got buy in from a mediocre bunch which meant they were over performing enough to pick up some points. 
Now the buy in seems to have faded and they are being asked to play a style they’re not suited to, things are regressing. 
However with the addition of a really quality, creative CM and a progressive right back, that might be enough to spark the others. Particularly if we get the  likes of Wells and Naismith back. 

[1960maaan]

12 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Exactly - we lost five out of seven before LM turned up

And expected to win away at Cardiff with 12 players out , or the manager gets it 

[Sir Geoff]

17 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Exactly - we lost five out of seven before LM turned up

Remind me but weren't we decimated by injuries, and if memory serves correctly we played the current top 3 and weren't rolled over by any of them, during that run.

[AshtonGreat]

3 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Remind me but weren't we decimated by injuries, and if memory serves correctly we played the current top 3 and weren't rolled over by any of them, during that run.

Not really - the personnel for the home defeat against Stoke was more or less the same as it is now. We didn't have Vyner but we did have Wells

[Davefevs]

Just now, AshtonGreat said:

Not really - the personnel for the home defeat against Stoke was more or less the same as it is now. We didn't have Vyner but we did have Wells

And we played pretty well that day.  You don’t always get the result you deserve.

The same applies to LM too….although some seem to forget when cutting LM some slack with result v performance, that they didn’t with Nige!

[2015]

4 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

That is very revealing into Brian’s character (noting it’s written from Wilson’s perspective)

I wouldn't have a professional man like Danny Wilson down as a liar. He did a decent job for us, failed to get promotion but was largely very professional in his role and a calm head. 

I don't think he would make these allegations up about Tinnion, he would have no reason to, as he says Tinnion was a key player for him.

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Not really - the personnel for the home defeat against Stoke was more or less the same as it is now. We didn't have Vyner but we did have Wells

We were missing McCrorie, Vyner, Atkinson and Benarous.

We can hardly say Conway or Weimann would've been fully fit and match fit by this juncture either.

In a squad of 21 outfield players that is quite a big loss..Tanner checking back according to reports went off with an ankle injury v Stoke 10 mins into the 2nd Half which upsets the balance further.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 hours ago, mason said:

Why is 3 a magic number.... if we give our new manager 3 million transfer windows it will make no difference if we continue to sell off our best players while not investing the proceeds and 3 wins will also make no difference if other clubs also win 3.

Currently teams below us are making progress while we head towards them, we have failed to add quality players in positions,that are clear to fans.

Our "top six" club is heading towards the bottom six, yet our league position was the reason given for the sacking of our exp manager. There are currently 9 teams below us and 14 teams above us, even on points we are 6 from bottom six and 7 from top six. So Jon the plan aint working yet.

We have an option dont show your support for JL by attending as though its all ok, or if you have to be there make your feelings known.

Had enough builds and rebuilds to last a life time, will be back when the fools are gone.

 

I genuinely hope the selling of key players has halted for the foreseeable.

By which I mean we now financially able to decide to keep and sell as we see fit, contractually at least.

I hope Scott was the last key sale for some time. Through gritted teeth I can accept it but that record fee and bringing down the cost base as we- sorry predominantly NP and Gould did- means we can be very choosy about when we sell, should we choose to do so.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous