who are these GHOST experts who say refs get 85% right?

[Robbored]

22 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It is not within the PGMOL's power to gag or fine Managers.

Fined by? The FA.  

it’s the same thing Cowshed regardless of who dishes out the fine. It’s an effective way of gagging managers financially who openly slag  off the officials.

Personally I think it’s a shame - I used to enjoy seeing managers losing it. Neil Warnock was hugely entertaining……………..

 

 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

it’s the same thing Cowshed regardless of who dishes out the fine. It’s an effective way of gagging managers financially who openly slag  off the officials.

Personally I think it’s a shame - I used to enjoy seeing managers losing it. Neil Warnock was hugely entertaining……………..

 

 

It literally cannot be the same thing, the bodies are separate. A Manager can criticise a referee, but they cannot insult referees and bring the game into disrepute which is what Nigel Pearson did. 

Personally I think the FA is far to lenient towards Managers.  Its a shame Managers feel so free to abuse referees and undermine authority from their protected positions. Managers receive paltry punishments while their behaviour has far reaching serious repercussions throughout football. 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Cowshed

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Could you explain how these figures are calculated? I could not. Subjective decisions cannot have an unequivocal right. 

Which figures?

 

[Cowshed]

33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Which figures?

 

The figures referred to in the thread - 85% of key decisions are correct. A figure reached by looking at a sample of decisions and a panel which includes individuals who are not expert referees, then vote upon decisions including subjective decisions whether they deem them to be correct. 

 

[Robbored]

57 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It literally cannot be the same thing, the bodies are separate. A Manager can criticise a referee, but they cannot insult referees and bring the game into disrepute which is what Nigel Pearson did. 

Personally I think the FA is far to lenient towards Managers.  Its a shame Managers feel so free to abuse referees and undermine authority from their protected positions. Managers receive paltry punishments while their behaviour has far reaching serious repercussions throughout football. 

Managers pointing out that referee decisions cost them game is hardly abuse whereas using any profanity aimed the officials definitely is - nobody would condone that.

We’ve all seen managers post match fuming with frustration with the officials having lost the game but they have no freedom to express what they’re feeling which generally speaking is the same as the fans.

Then……..days later they receive a meaningless letter of apology from the PGMOL - I’m sure they’d rather have 1 or 3 points enclosed in the envelope.

Surely  officials costing a club points is tantamount to bringing the game into disrepute?

 

[Davefevs]

59 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The figures referred to in the thread - 85% of key decisions are correct. A figure reached by looking at a sample of decisions and a panel which includes individuals who are not expert referees, then vote upon decisions including subjective decisions whether they deem them to be correct. 

 

Yes, was in the link, broke down by gameweek:

https://www.efl.com/news/2023/december/19/key-match-incidents-panel-reveals-correct-referee-decisions-at-85--so-far-this-season/

[Cowshed]

17 hours ago, Robbored said:

Managers pointing out that referee decisions cost them game is hardly abuse whereas using any profanity aimed the officials definitely is - nobody would condone that.

We’ve all seen managers post match fuming with frustration with the officials having lost the game but they have no freedom to express what they’re feeling which generally speaking is the same as the fans.

Then……..days later they receive a meaningless letter of apology from the PGMOL - I’m sure they’d rather have 1 or 3 points enclosed in the envelope.

Surely  officials costing a club points is tantamount to bringing the game into disrepute?

 

Nigel Pearson insulted a ref. That is what his fine was for. The very best do this the Klopps and Guardiola's. Arteta insults and overtly criticises refs monthly. I know you know what definitions of abuse are, overt criticism and insulting an individual is abuse. 

The answer to your questions are in the FA' s rule E.

Yes we all see Managers, making excuses for their own failings, projecting their failure onto others, creating victim narratives, demonstrating their lack of control. Managers have freedoms, they do not have the freedom to abuse referees. they can still express themselves within the rules for the leagues their team play within.

In your post you said seeing Managers losing it was entertaining (Yes it sort of is ), but what are the consequences for the game? There is a connection between behaviours seen at the game zenith demonstrated by highly paid and well protected Managers, and the abuse and assault of referees throughout the game, what we see is mirrored and more through football.    

 

[Robbored]

20 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Nigel Pearson insulted a ref. That is what his fine was for. The very best do this the Klopps and Guardiola's. Arteta insults and overtly criticises refs monthly. I know you know what definitions of abuse are, overt criticism and insulting an individual is abuse. 

The answer to your questions are in the FA' s rule E.

Yes we all see Managers, making excuses for their own failings, projecting their failure onto others, creating victim narratives, demonstrating their lack of control. Managers have freedoms, they do not have the freedom to abuse referees. they can still express themselves within the rules for the leagues their team play within.

In your post you said seeing Managers losing it was entertaining (Yes it sort of is ), but what are the consequences for the game? There is a connection between behaviours seen at the game zenith demonstrated by highly paid and well protected Managers, and the abuse and assault of referees throughout the game, what we see is mirrored and more through football.    

 

I completely understand all of that Cowshed - used to see young boys under 9s behaving in the same way as professional players who’d then seen on tv - it was the parents that were the problem!

A pal an I ran a boys team from 8 thru to 15 some years ago.

[Red-Robbo]

Presumably this "85% correct" stat includes decisions like turning up at the right ground and remembering to pack his kit etc etc...

[Three Lions]

On 23/12/2023 at 13:41, Robbored said:

What!? You must be joking. Nige was fined last season for criticising the referee’s performance. The next time he was unhappy with the refs performance he widened his criticism to the poor standard of refereeing rather than the match official.

Plenty of other managers who’ve done the same have been fined by the PGMOL - that’s pretty much a gagging order and why we don’t see it anywhere near as often as we used to. We all remember Neil Warnock - he must have paid thousands in fines!

What!? You must be joking or dont know what you are on about. Pgmol dont fine managers!! 

[Curr Avon]

On 22/12/2023 at 08:06, Never to the dark side said:

A panel - introduced this season - is made up of five ex-players and coaches, as well as a representative from the EFL and refereeing body, the PGMOL.

Saying officials get 85 per cent correct.

Don't think they have attended any Bristol City games,as the "correct rate" would then fall below 50 per cent

Me thinks its like marking your own homework

Do the GHOST experts work for SPECTRE?

[Cowshed]

On 24/12/2023 at 11:50, Robbored said:

I completely understand all of that Cowshed - used to see young boys under 9s behaving in the same way as professional players who’d then seen on tv - it was the parents that were the problem!

A pal an I ran a boys team from 8 thru to 15 some years ago.

There are serious problems being caused by players, spectators and parents. Mirroring behaviour they see at the the games peak. It is a known and logical consequence. The FA not the PGMOL should be far harder on Managers undermining referees, encouraging abuse of refs and damaging the game.

On 24/12/2023 at 11:54, Red-Robbo said:

Presumably this "85% correct" stat includes decisions like turning up at the right ground and remembering to pack his kit etc etc...

No. That may be a joke but as many decisions like corners, goal kicks and throw in's are not subjective and clear refs will get an overwhelming number of decisions correct.

Yesterday saw Sean Dyche stating publicly he doesn't know the laws of the game , a decision was bizarre, he didn't think the handball was deliberate. Sean Dyche a Manager, an ex player, does not know a significant law of the game, handball does not need to be deliberate. Do the experts on the key match incident panel also have as much knowledge of the laws of the game to come to their 15% of decisions are wrong? 

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Yesterday saw Sean Dyche stating publicly he doesn't know the laws of the game , a decision was bizarre, he didn't think the handball was deliberate. Sean Dyche a Manager, an ex player, does not know a significant law of the game, handball does not need to be deliberate. Do the experts on the key match incident panel also have as much knowledge of the laws of the game to come to their 15% of decisions are wrong? 

The handball law can be interpreted differently by referees and of course VaR. 

For example - the ball hits the upper arm close to the shoulder. Some referees give a penalty often confirmed by VaR and some don’t award a penalty which is also confirmed by VaR - it’s ambiguous.

There was a PL match recently involving Liverpool where the ball hit the defenders lower arm as he was falling in the box - no penalty given confirmed by VaR.

It certainly makes fans wonder if the VaR officials know the laws - to everyone else it was a stonewall penalty but not to the ref or VaR…………..

It’s no surprise that managers like Dyche make comments about not knowing the laws.

[Red-Robbo]

33 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

Yesterday saw Sean Dyche stating publicly he doesn't know the laws of the game , a decision was bizarre, he didn't think the handball was deliberate. Sean Dyche a Manager, an ex player, does not know a significant law of the game, handball does not need to be deliberate. Do the experts on the key match incident panel also have as much knowledge of the laws of the game to come to their 15% of decisions are wrong? 

 

Blimey. Even I know that one!!

[Cowshed]

49 minutes ago, Robbored said:

The handball law can be interpreted differently by referees and of course VaR. 

For example - the ball hits the upper arm close to the shoulder. Some referees give a penalty often confirmed by VaR and some don’t award a penalty which is also confirmed by VaR - it’s ambiguous.

There was a PL match recently involving Liverpool where the ball hit the defenders lower arm as he was falling in the box - no penalty given confirmed by VaR.

It certainly makes fans wonder if the VaR officials know the laws - to everyone else it was a stonewall penalty but not to the ref or VaR…………..

It’s no surprise that managers like Dyche make comments about not knowing the laws.

Check laws on where the ball hits the arm and on natural position. Its in the laws.

I thinks its amazing that a man who is in charge of a team worth hundreds of millions, has a supportive network of coaches and analysts to support his football, and training that includes defending and where players position their arms doesn't know whats in law 12.

35 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Blimey. Even I know that one!!

There is the qualified expert for you. And a panel of these ex Manager ex player experts has been formed to cast judgement on refereeing standards. The stats they create? Suspect.  

[Three Lions]

On ref watch Dermott Gallagher says Man City got a modern day penalty and it was. It took 0.2 seconds from boot to Onanas arm!! Onana must know in that 0.2 seconds he cant be running round the box with arms on to block a shot and he has to take his arms off. If you go into a challenge or block a ball with arms on in the box you run the risk of handball. Thats where modern hand ball has got to.  No way are you giving that modern penalty for ashton v briz u12's or suburban leagues or non league but in pro football according to the laws of the game and interpretation at top level these are penalties for handball.