Desperately Seeking…Investment

[Davefevs]

At the Fans Forum, JL seemed to imply that it’s not easy to find the perfect investor, that they would like to bring in expertise to help safeguard City and that they’d work together if they could find one (as opposed to selling-up).

At the time, I couldn’t quite get my head around why someone would want to invest without control.  Although there was talk of Sir Jim Ratcliffe doing exactly that with Manchester United / The Glazers.

Just seen this:

At least that explains why SJR might want to settle for 25% ownership.

I’m guessing a range of clauses like these could work for us?

@headhunter

@Curr Avon

[Mr Popodopolous]

I wonder if the Ratcliffe deal was a staged takeover but seems not at this juncture.

That model is something Birmingham seem to be doing right now..they're still listed as part of the wider group on HKSE but partly owned by Knighthead. 25% maybe, 40% st most..

..We think our structure is complex!  HKSE wider group, minority or majority US, some sort of domicile in the Cayman Islands for an English 2nd tier club.

Would make sense though, try before buy for both sides and give some certain autonomy to new investors.

[Davefevs]

Mods - would you mind moving to main thread please?  Ta

@Ian M

[chinapig]

It's hypothetical but I can't see Steve ceding control over football operations given that he and Jon seem to think they have football expertise.

In any event would any serious investor of the right calibre want somebody as unqualified as Jon as Chairman? Would they want to replace Tinnion with a proven Technical Director? Would they want a Chief Executive and a better governance structure?

It seems to me that there are real barriers to attracting investment quite apart from the money. Barriers that Steve would be unlikely to remove.

[bcfc01]

34 minutes ago, chinapig said:

It's hypothetical but I can't see Steve ceding control over football operations given that he and Jon seem to think they have football expertise.

In any event would any serious investor of the right calibre want somebody as unqualified as Jon as Chairman? Would they want to replace Tinnion with a proven Technical Director? Would they want a Chief Executive and a better governance structure?

It seems to me that there are real barriers to attracting investment quite apart from the money. Barriers that Steve would be unlikely to remove.

As JL is now running the show, its doubtful that external investment will be forthcoming as he won't want any interference, but I wouldn't rule out investment from SL if results maintain as they are.

Nepotism rules.

[Mr Popodopolous]

That would be disappointing in some ways because I still doubt JL is up to it medium to long term, Tinnion and him..the dynamic duo.

Views aside, fresh investment is one thing but it can also bring new ideas and impetus. Dynamism.

[GrahamC]

17 hours ago, chinapig said:

It's hypothetical but I can't see Steve ceding control over football operations given that he and Jon seem to think they have football expertise.

In any event would any serious investor of the right calibre want somebody as unqualified as Jon as Chairman? Would they want to replace Tinnion with a proven Technical Director? Would they want a Chief Executive and a better governance structure?

It seems to me that there are real barriers to attracting investment quite apart from the money. Barriers that Steve would be unlikely to remove.

Agree but also see JL’s increasing recent involvement as a sign we have moved away from the idea of selling to simply a change of guard in the politburo.

[ExiledAjax]

@Davefevs

The third fourth and fifth bullet point are not particularly unusual and are found in most minority investment documents. I would absolutely expect the documents to have something similar to those if we ever took a minority investor onboard.

The first and second are obviously specific to Man Utd and football.

Edited December 28, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[CyderInACan]

19 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

partly owned by Knighthead.

So owned by Knighthead and managed by a nobhead 

Edited December 28, 2023 by CyderInACan

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

@Davefevs

The third fourth and fifth bullet point are not particularly unusual and are found in most minority investment documents. I would absolutely expect the documents to have something similar to those if we ever took a minority investor onboard.

The first and second are obviously specific to Man Utd and football.

Ta for the added info.  Not my bag this stuff, so helps to understand what’s standard practice and what isn’t.

[ExiledAjax]

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ta for the added info.  Not my bag this stuff, so helps to understand what’s standard practice and what isn’t.

Always happy to (try) and explain it simply.

The third bullet point is sensible. Ratcliffe doesn't want to go into partnership with the Glazers if they then sell their shares to someone else next week does he? But equally the Glazers don't want him to be able to completely control what they do with their property. So he negotiates a right of first refusal ("ROFR"). The documents will have all kinds of triggers around the price he'd pay, how he asserts that ROFR etc. But that's basically in there to give him certainty over who he is getting into bed with.

The fourth is what's called a "drag along right". The basis for that is that the Glazers might get an astonishing offer for their shares in the next month, but that new person doesn't want to buy if old Sir Jim is still around stinking the place out, and he doesn't want to exercise the ROFR as it's out of his price range (suspend disbelief for a minute). So the Glazers need the right to "drag" Ratcliffe with them and force him to sell. Again there will be threshold triggers around pricing, as well as a carefully crafted definition of exactly what a "Sale" is. It's interesting that it's gated by 18 months...I think that suggests that there may be some plans in the offing already.

There is probably a mirror "tag along right" where Ratcliffe can tag along with the Glazers selling if he wants to. He'd use this if, for example, the Glazers were going to sell but it the price per share didn't trigger the drag along right. Ratcliffe still wants out as he doesn't like the person buying the Glazer's shares, so he forces them to "tag" him in.

All standard stuff as a concept, the fine details will be deal-specific.

The fifth is just a common "don't slag us off clause". 

Edited December 28, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[REDOXO]

Buy sell agreements are very common as exiled says. 
 

Man Utd is an extreme case because they are who they are and the new fella is a supporter. 
 

I think SL and JL have “kissed a lot of frogs” so far, however to attract that kind of deal from an external backer would be very hard work. 
 

Do we have anymore billionaire supporters?

[One Team]

18 hours ago, chinapig said:

It's hypothetical but I can't see Steve ceding control over football operations given that he and Jon seem to think they have football expertise.

In any event would any serious investor of the right calibre want somebody as unqualified as Jon as Chairman? Would they want to replace Tinnion with a proven Technical Director? Would they want a Chief Executive and a better governance structure?

It seems to me that there are real barriers to attracting investment quite apart from the money. Barriers that Steve would be unlikely to remove.

Spot on. Partial investment seems unworkable to me, but if there is a precedent along the lines of @Davefevs point then maybe it could work. 

Trouble is a full sale seems unlikely given the monster that’s been created in Bristol Sport. You’d think anyone coming in, whether partial or full, would want a say in structure and personnel. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

The Glazers getting SJR to pledge 245 million to redevelop OT is a stroke of genius.  

They are basically getting him to pay for the works that need to be done like fixing the roof. That 245 million won't see much change at OT. Just papering over the cracks and kicking the issue down the road. 

In my opinion, as they've got spare land at OT, they should just build a new stadium on that land in the same way as Spurs did it. For me that's the only way they will be able to achieve a world class state of the art facility. 

[Red Billy]

Fairly standard terms and conditions you would think.  Man United would look to use the money to improve old Trafford and increase match day revenue.  This in turn increases the turn over which drives up share price. Offering a solid return on the investment being put in.  Could City offer the same growth on any return when you consider how much SL has put in and not seen a return on.  It would be subject to us getting to the Premier League where as Man United just need to sit tight and reap the ever growing TV money year on year.  Low risk with high return.

[Mendip City]

Difference between the united situation and ours is that their new money/people will come in and run football operations. The Glazers have effectively admitted they aren’t experts in this side of things. 
 

At Ashton Gate, I can’t see a scenario where the current owners give up control of football to a minority (or any) investor - so we’d have the same structure and people running football. 
 

Why would anyone invest?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Birmingham fwiw are still a minority ownership oddly, 45.64% of something albeit not checked the full structure there for a while.

It could be that Knighthead own that, the Hong Kong owners own x and a third party owns y.

Assume that Knighhead now make the big calls but they still only as it stands own 45.64%.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[ashton_fan]

20 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That would be disappointing in some ways because I still doubt JL is up to it medium to long term, Tinnion and him..the dynamic duo.

Views aside, fresh investment is one thing but it can also bring new ideas and impetus. Dynamism.

I know JL and Tins are getting slated by many on here but I can't see they've done much wrong. Regarding the last two managerial appointments most agree NP was a good choice at the time and although Manning is in the early stages of his City career this appointment is looking promising as well. I think it's more they don't come across too well in the media doesn't mean they're not competent though. Tins has also done great work with the Academy.

[petehinton]

 

anorher truly horrific looking “partnership” for the kit, to try and get some more coffers in…

[exAtyeoMax]

Just now, petehinton said:

 

anorher truly horrific looking “partnership” for the kit, to try and get some more coffers in…

“What’s that Skippy?” 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

I know JL and Tins are getting slated by many on here but I can't see they've done much wrong. Regarding the last two managerial appointments most agree NP was a good choice at the time and although Manning is in the early stages of his City career this appointment is looking promising as well. I think it's more they don't come across too well in the media doesn't mean they're not competent though. Tins has also done great work with the Academy.

Was NP a JL or SL appointment out of interest? It feels an age ago now..

Manning is showing promise. Early days, some credit albeit building on some excellent foundations.

I will also credit the hierarchy with bringing Gould on board, that was just what we needed.

Tinnion has some excellent qualities..with the Academy! A DoF or anything higher, not convinced.

[Sleepy1968]

13 minutes ago, petehinton said:

 

anorher truly horrific looking “partnership” for the kit, to try and get some more coffers in…

At least they're local. No, I've no idea why you'd want a trading name that screams 'Aussie Company'.

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

I know JL and Tins are getting slated by many on here but I can't see they've done much wrong. Regarding the last two managerial appointments most agree NP was a good choice at the time and although Manning is in the early stages of his City career this appointment is looking promising as well. I think it's more they don't come across too well in the media doesn't mean they're not competent though. Tins has also done great work with the Academy.

Not all criticism starts and ends at the pure football part of the “business”! 

[sh1t_ref_again]

I know it's popular to attack the Lansdowns, but it was JL who introduced they may consider investment if they had the right expertise, surely the only expertise an investor would want, would be at a senior level that has some control.

Perhaps the unpopular flatened management structure is only planned as interim, eventually paving the way for the possibility of new investor led board members or senior management.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Could have a staged buyout.

Over 2-3 years, wirh increasing influence handed over by the year, as the stake grows.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, ashton_fan said:

I know JL and Tins are getting slated by many on here but I can't see they've done much wrong. Regarding the last two managerial appointments most agree NP was a good choice at the time and although Manning is in the early stages of his City career this appointment is looking promising as well. I think it's more they don't come across too well in the media doesn't mean they're not competent though. Tins has also done great work with the Academy.

JL didn't even know when the accounts were going to be released, they were released less than 48 hours later. That's how competent he is. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Not all criticism starts and ends at the pure football part of the “business”! 

@ashton_fan Exhibit A:

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

I know it's popular to attack the Lansdowns, but it was JL who introduced they may consider investment if they had the right expertise, surely the only expertise an investor would want, would be at a senior level that has some control.

Perhaps the unpopular flatened management structure is only planned as interim, eventually paving the way for the possibility of new investor led board members or senior management.

It's worth asking whether any other Championship club would have the same, shall we say, unorthodox governance structure. I suspect not.

Furthermore would any other club appoint Jon as Chairman? Again I think not.

There is a worrying lack of professionalism and best practice at the top.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, chinapig said:

It's worth asking whether any other Championship club would have the same, shall we say, unorthodox governance structure. I suspect not.

Furthermore would any other club appoint Jon as Chairman? Again I think not.

There is a worrying lack of professionalism and best practice at the top.

Think @Olé did the digging a couple of weeks back.

[sh1t_ref_again]

6 minutes ago, chinapig said:

It's worth asking whether any other Championship club would have the same, shall we say, unorthodox governance structure. I suspect not.

Furthermore would any other club appoint Jon as Chairman? Again I think not.

There is a worrying lack of professionalism and best practice at the top.

As per the point I made in my post, perhaps the structure is interim, could even be with the investor taking over the day to day running and JL taking a back seat.... who knows what discussions could be ongoing