Steve Lansdown, a case study in how to appoint good managers - in between the awful ones - and lose them, and devils advocate: Liam Manning?

[NickJ]

Danny Wilson

Good manager, 48% win ratio for us. I personally felt pride watching his team from 2000-2004 which often had 5 Bristolians sometimes 7, playing attractive football.

Castigated for the play off disater, but it was one mistake and he was steadily building and improving each season.

Persuaded by Brian "trust me on Tins" Tinnion that Danny was a wrong un. What might have been.

 

Gary Johnson

Good manager, good apppointment.

Victim of his own nepotism which Lansdown should have stepped in and sorted but didn't, culminating in that incident at Plymouth.

 

Steve Coppell

The coup that never was. Allegedly realised the owner would be a meddler and left with his bags before even unpacking them.

 

Steve Cotterill

What can you say. Don't need to. Except, shafted. Should have been supported but by then nepo boy was on the horizon and Crayon Boy was his mate, and so it came to pass that a managerial imbecile with a win rate of 37% in the 3rd division was showered with gifts in the Championship.

 

Nigel Pearson

Achieved different things in different ways. On paper, given mediocre results, unprecedented support from a fan base that recognised what he was doing and had done. Treated disgraefully, replaced though by a manager who apparently would get the most out of our "top 6 quality" squad.

 

And so now Liam Manning.

Didn't want him, hard to warm to him. And yet. Win rate of 48% at Lommel, MK and Oxford. 29% for us. Why? Is the step up too much? Has Crayon Boy put too much expectation on him? Will he come good?

Is there hope?

 

[Mendip City]

No there’s no hope for Manning. 
 

You can simplify this even further. When we appoint managers/manager-style characters they tend to do well here…. as you’ve listed. 
When we appoint young-up-and-coming or head coach types it goes wrong: LM, LJ, SOD, DMc, BT, DH…. There are probably more and you can take the manager v coach story right back to the days of Cooper, Jordan and then appointing a coach with no managerial experience (Lumsden)… why has the club not learnt? 

[Lack of Action Man]

4 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

No there’s no hope for Manning. 
 

You can simplify this even further. When we appoint managers/manager-style characters they tend to do well here…. as you’ve listed. 
When we appoint young-up-and-coming or head coach types it goes wrong: LM, LJ, SOD, DMc, BT, DH…. There are probably more and you can take the manager v coach story right back to the days of Cooper, Jordan and then appointing a coach with no managerial experience (Lumsden)… why has the club not learnt? 

Spot on.

[Sir Geoff]

Dean Holden, that was a good one.......oh wait.

[AshtonGreat]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

Danny Wilson

Good manager, 48% win ratio for us. I personally felt pride watching his team from 2000-2004 which often had 5 Bristolians sometimes 7, playing attractive football.

Castigated for the play off disater, but it was one mistake and he was steadily building and improving each season.

Persuaded by Brian "trust me on Tins" Tinnion that Danny was a wrong un. What might have been.

 

Gary Johnson

Good manager, good apppointment.

Victim of his own nepotism which Lansdown should have stepped in and sorted but didn't, culminating in that incident at Plymouth.

 

Steve Coppell

The coup that never was. Allegedly realised the owner would be a meddler and left with his bags before even unpacking them.

 

Steve Cotterill

What can you say. Don't need to. Except, shafted. Should have been supported but by then nepo boy was on the horizon and Crayon Boy was his mate, and so it came to pass that a managerial imbecile with a win rate of 37% in the 3rd division was showered with gifts in the Championship.

 

Nigel Pearson

Achieved different things in different ways. On paper, given mediocre results, unprecedented support from a fan base that recognised what he was doing and had done. Treated disgraefully, replaced though by a manager who apparently would get the most out of our "top 6 quality" squad.

 

And so now Liam Manning.

Didn't want him, hard to warm to him. And yet. Win rate of 48% at Lommel, MK and Oxford. 29% for us. Why? Is the step up too much? Has Crayon Boy put too much expectation on him? Will he come good?

Is there hope?

 

He wasn't great on the whole but that's a tad harsh considering he got us to a whisker of the play-offs and to the semi-finals of the Carabao Cup, beating Man United and giving Man City two good games along the way

[italian dave]

Personally, I’d put Lee Johnson above Danny Wilson in my list of successful appointments. 

Just my opinion: yours is clearly different - @AshtonGreat has already noted the emotive language but I’d suggest your use of his stats is even more indicative of a degree of bias!

Why quote his win ratio at other clubs, when he managed us?!! His win ratio with us, at “2nd Division” level was 39%. Gary (who’s on your list) achieved 40% - and had the benefit of a couple of seasons in the third division as part of that. 

[TDarwall]

Really it's impossible to compare managers across different era's & divisions.  It's probably easier to get us promoted in League 1 than make is competitive in the Championship.

Its clearly deeper than the manager though, in a parallel universe where we gave Gary O'Neil the job, he'd have probably been sacked by now & is trying to rebuild his reputation at a lower league club.

 

[GrahamC]

5 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Personally, I’d put Lee Johnson above Danny Wilson in my list of successful appointments. 

Just my opinion: yours is clearly different - @AshtonGreat has already noted the emotive language but I’d suggest your use of his stats is even more indicative of a degree of bias!

Why quote his win ratio at other clubs, when he managed us?!! His win ratio with us, at “2nd Division” level was 39%. Gary (who’s on your list) achieved 40% - and had the benefit of a couple of seasons in the third division as part of that. 

So would I.

I never warmed to him but at times we were excellent under him.

It did go very badly wrong with our insane transfer policy in the year leading up to the pandemic though.

Wilson did stabilise the club, definitely played a lot of local youngsters but the progress in his last 2 years was glacial & his tolerance of an unprofessional drinking culture was shocking.

[italian dave]

17 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

He wasn't great on the whole but that's a tad harsh considering he got us to a whisker of the play-offs and to the semi-finals of the Carabao Cup, beating Man United and giving Man City two good games along the way

And, in league terms, got us to the position of being an established second tier club - for the first time in decades. 

[tin]

The football under Wilson and Cotts was the closest to “front-foot football” we’ve seen under all those managers. And it’s no coincidence that they had control of recruitment during those times. 

The model Ashton built post-Cotts remains in place today. It imposes restraints on managers and sets the club up to fail IMO. As Harry said yesterday, that needs to be ripped up.

As for Manning, he isn’t right for us and the issue with sacking him is I don’t trust BT or JL to get it right. Therein lies the problem, and it’s a big un. 

[steviestevieneville]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

Danny Wilson

Good manager, 48% win ratio for us. I personally felt pride watching his team from 2000-2004 which often had 5 Bristolians sometimes 7, playing attractive football.

Castigated for the play off disater, but it was one mistake and he was steadily building and improving each season.

Persuaded by Brian "trust me on Tins" Tinnion that Danny was a wrong un. What might have been.

 

Gary Johnson

Good manager, good apppointment.

Victim of his own nepotism which Lansdown should have stepped in and sorted but didn't, culminating in that incident at Plymouth.

 

Steve Coppell

The coup that never was. Allegedly realised the owner would be a meddler and left with his bags before even unpacking them.

 

Steve Cotterill

What can you say. Don't need to. Except, shafted. Should have been supported but by then nepo boy was on the horizon and Crayon Boy was his mate, and so it came to pass that a managerial imbecile with a win rate of 37% in the 3rd division was showered with gifts in the Championship.

 

Nigel Pearson

Achieved different things in different ways. On paper, given mediocre results, unprecedented support from a fan base that recognised what he was doing and had done. Treated disgraefully, replaced though by a manager who apparently would get the most out of our "top 6 quality" squad.

 

And so now Liam Manning.

Didn't want him, hard to warm to him. And yet. Win rate of 48% at Lommel, MK and Oxford. 29% for us. Why? Is the step up too much? Has Crayon Boy put too much expectation on him? Will he come good?

Is there hope?

 

Steve cotterill not appointed by Lansdown apparently but by Kieth  Dawe . So imo he can’t take credit for him . His legacy on the pitch has been a failure 

[italian dave]

8 minutes ago, tin said:

The football under Wilson and Cotts was the closest to “front-foot football” we’ve seen under all those managers. And it’s no coincidence that they had control of recruitment during those times. 

The model Ashton built post-Cotts remains in place today. It imposes restraints on managers and sets the club up to fail IMO. As Harry said yesterday, that needs to be ripped up.

As for Manning, he isn’t right for us and the issue with sacking him is I don’t trust BT or JL to get it right. Therein lies the problem, and it’s a big un. 

Also no coincidence those two achieved that almost entirely in the third tier?

Im not disagreeing with you or Harry on the model, far from it, but it’s a lot easier, whoever is in charge of recruitment, when you’re the big fish in the pond and can go out and buy the proven best at that level. 

[Sniper]

Personally I'd have Cotts back in a heartbeat, but even if we did approach him which I know wouldn't happen he'd probably tell us to fruit off.

[Barrs Court Red]

Re Wilson, I seem to remember one of Jon’s forum mates writing a letter to the Evening Post around the same time, calling for Wilson to go. Do wonder if it was all orchestrated now. 

[Lew-T]

1 hour ago, Mendip City said:

No there’s no hope for Manning. 
 

You can simplify this even further. When we appoint managers/manager-style characters they tend to do well here…. as you’ve listed. 
When we appoint young-up-and-coming or head coach types it goes wrong: LM, LJ, SOD, DMc, BT, DH…. There are probably more and you can take the manager v coach story right back to the days of Cooper, Jordan and then appointing a coach with no managerial experience (Lumsden)… why has the club not learnt? 

His face doesn’t fit here. He’s not Bristol City to me. History tells you we’ve always done better with a rough and ready gaffer, no nonsense type. Fans can relate to and get behind.

Liam Manning is so vanilla. He’d probably fit in better at somewhere like Reading…

[Fuber]

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

Danny Wilson

Good manager, 48% win ratio for us. I personally felt pride watching his team from 2000-2004 which often had 5 Bristolians sometimes 7, playing attractive football.

Castigated for the play off disater, but it was one mistake and he was steadily building and improving each season.

Persuaded by Brian "trust me on Tins" Tinnion that Danny was a wrong un. What might have been.

 

Gary Johnson

Good manager, good apppointment.

Victim of his own nepotism which Lansdown should have stepped in and sorted but didn't, culminating in that incident at Plymouth.

 

Steve Coppell

The coup that never was. Allegedly realised the owner would be a meddler and left with his bags before even unpacking them.

 

Steve Cotterill

What can you say. Don't need to. Except, shafted. Should have been supported but by then nepo boy was on the horizon and Crayon Boy was his mate, and so it came to pass that a managerial imbecile with a win rate of 37% in the 3rd division was showered with gifts in the Championship.

 

Nigel Pearson

Achieved different things in different ways. On paper, given mediocre results, unprecedented support from a fan base that recognised what he was doing and had done. Treated disgraefully, replaced though by a manager who apparently would get the most out of our "top 6 quality" squad.

 

And so now Liam Manning.

Didn't want him, hard to warm to him. And yet. Win rate of 48% at Lommel, MK and Oxford. 29% for us. Why? Is the step up too much? Has Crayon Boy put too much expectation on him? Will he come good?

Is there hope?

 

Been covered before, but Cotts was a Dawe appointment.

[Leabrook]

Case studies are supposed to be impartial not filled with emotion 

[rednotblue]

I really hope Manning does well in the long term but I just don't see how at the moment.

Our recent history shows it is a Manager and not a Coach that gets us good results. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Lew-T said:

His face doesn’t fit here. He’s not Bristol City to me. History tells you we’ve always done better with a rough and ready gaffer, no nonsense type. Fans can relate to and get behind.

Liam Manning is so vanilla. He’d probably fit in better at somewhere like Reading…

Agreed.

You can't really imagine Manning rallying the fans, (or perhaps the players), or whipping up a siege mentality- Club, Management, Team, Fans all in it as one if required.

In their own ways, GJ, Cotts, NP absolutely.

[jrabrewer]

Its a good point in terms of history repeating itself, but a bit revisionist on Danny Wilson. 99% of the fanbase wanted him gone after the PO final, and the football during his last season (with a talented squad) was dire. The mistake was appointing BT as his successor.

[sh1t_ref_again]

4 hours ago, NickJ said:

Danny Wilson

Good manager, 48% win ratio for us. I personally felt pride watching his team from 2000-2004 which often had 5 Bristolians sometimes 7, playing attractive football.

Castigated for the play off disater, but it was one mistake and he was steadily building and improving each season.

Persuaded by Brian "trust me on Tins" Tinnion that Danny was a wrong un. What might have been.

 

Gary Johnson

Good manager, good apppointment.

Victim of his own nepotism which Lansdown should have stepped in and sorted but didn't, culminating in that incident at Plymouth.

 

Steve Coppell

The coup that never was. Allegedly realised the owner would be a meddler and left with his bags before even unpacking them.

 

Steve Cotterill

What can you say. Don't need to. Except, shafted. Should have been supported but by then nepo boy was on the horizon and Crayon Boy was his mate, and so it came to pass that a managerial imbecile with a win rate of 37% in the 3rd division was showered with gifts in the Championship.

 

Nigel Pearson

Achieved different things in different ways. On paper, given mediocre results, unprecedented support from a fan base that recognised what he was doing and had done. Treated disgraefully, replaced though by a manager who apparently would get the most out of our "top 6 quality" squad.

 

And so now Liam Manning.

Didn't want him, hard to warm to him. And yet. Win rate of 48% at Lommel, MK and Oxford. 29% for us. Why? Is the step up too much? Has Crayon Boy put too much expectation on him? Will he come good?

Is there hope?

 

So tainted with you bias opinion to match an agenda

Gary Johnson, great lower division manager, agree about nepotism, but his management style was to bully, which you can only get away with up to a certain level

Lee Johnson, never liked him as a player, but done OK as a manager, just stuck with him too long which is often SL's way

You missed Holden - I never believe the story about how he was appointed, always think we had someone lined up which eventually fell thru

Steve Cotterill - my favorite manager along with Nige, but cotts went all gung ho wanting to sign players on massive money which I remember SL said he would back, but they did not come off

Nige, the truth is none of us really know why he was sacked, it was certainly not the reasons given, which suggests some sort of cover story. The breakdown had obviously gone on for some time, hence the nestegg statement by SL as cleary did not want to give NP the Scott funds, maybe there is a very good reason why he was sacked, one that most businesses would have done the same thing, the problem is we can only see 1 side, that is a popular manager sacked for apparently no reason as what was said did not add up. Whilst a lot of things can be said about SL, sacking someone for the sake of it if they could see he was doing a good job and harming their club and investment, makes no sense.

LM - I was hoping for Eustace, but we don't know if we approached him and it did not happen, but ending up with Manning, my concern always was if we hit a bad run would the players trust his vision due to lack of experience, hopefully he turns it around quickly and becomes a great manager as showed some early promise, but that looks a long way off and fear a few more losses and dragged into a relegation fight will need a change

[Derek]

Sacking a roadworthy Rolls Royce and replacing it with an unroadworthy Reliant Robin does not make good business sense.

It appears to be the decision of a rich owner who has bought his son a toy and his son has had a tantrum because he does not want anyone else to play with his toy.

 

[NickJ]

5 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

So tainted with you bias opinion to match an agenda

Gary Johnson, great lower division manager, agree about nepotism, but his management style was to bully, which you can only get away with up to a certain level

Lee Johnson, never liked him as a player, but done OK as a manager, just stuck with him too long which is often SL's way

You missed Holden - I never believe the story about how he was appointed, always think we had someone lined up which eventually fell thru

Steve Cotterill - my favorite manager along with Nige, but cotts went all gung ho wanting to sign players on massive money which I remember SL said he would back, but they did not come off

Nige, the truth is none of us really know why he was sacked, it was certainly not the reasons given, which suggests some sort of cover story. The breakdown had obviously gone on for some time, hence the nestegg statement by SL as cleary did not want to give NP the Scott funds, maybe there is a very good reason why he was sacked, one that most businesses would have done the same thing, the problem is we can only see 1 side, that is a popular manager sacked for apparently no reason as what was said did not add up. Whilst a lot of things can be said about SL, sacking someone for the sake of it if they could see he was doing a good job and harming their club and investment, makes no sense.

LM - I was hoping for Eustace, but we don't know if we approached him and it did not happen, but ending up with Manning, my concern always was if we hit a bad run would the players trust his vision due to lack of experience, hopefully he turns it around quickly and becomes a great manager as showed some early promise, but that looks a long way off and fear a few more losses and dragged into a relegation fight will need a change

Just FYI mate an opinion isn’t a bias 

[sh1t_ref_again]

10 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Just FYI mate an opinion isn’t a bias 

Maybe, but it was slanted to your bias, which you clearly gave away with the crayon boy comment

[Red-Robbo]

9 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

Steve cotterill not appointed by Lansdown apparently but by Kieth  Dawe . So imo he can’t take credit for him . His legacy on the pitch has been a failure 

 

People often say that, but as the 99% owner, Lansdown had to approve Dawe's recommendation, so in that sense, yeah, he was appointed by Lansdown. 

[REDOXO]

11 hours ago, NickJ said:

Danny Wilson

Good manager, 48% win ratio for us. I personally felt pride watching his team from 2000-2004 which often had 5 Bristolians sometimes 7, playing attractive football.

Castigated for the play off disater, but it was one mistake and he was steadily building and improving each season.

Persuaded by Brian "trust me on Tins" Tinnion that Danny was a wrong un. What might have been.

 

Gary Johnson

Good manager, good apppointment.

Victim of his own nepotism which Lansdown should have stepped in and sorted but didn't, culminating in that incident at Plymouth.

 

Steve Coppell

The coup that never was. Allegedly realised the owner would be a meddler and left with his bags before even unpacking them.

 

Steve Cotterill

What can you say. Don't need to. Except, shafted. Should have been supported but by then nepo boy was on the horizon and Crayon Boy was his mate, and so it came to pass that a managerial imbecile with a win rate of 37% in the 3rd division was showered with gifts in the Championship.

 

Nigel Pearson

Achieved different things in different ways. On paper, given mediocre results, unprecedented support from a fan base that recognised what he was doing and had done. Treated disgraefully, replaced though by a manager who apparently would get the most out of our "top 6 quality" squad.

 

And so now Liam Manning.

Didn't want him, hard to warm to him. And yet. Win rate of 48% at Lommel, MK and Oxford. 29% for us. Why? Is the step up too much? Has Crayon Boy put too much expectation on him? Will he come good?

Is there hope?

 

Nice summary. The last question is answered by yes!

[NickJ]

47 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Maybe, but it was slanted to your bias, which you clearly gave away with the crayon boy comment

Wrong again mate, no slant, just my opinion. Crayon Boy isn't a bias, its sympotmatic of my disdain and contempt.

[steviestevieneville]

6 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

People often say that, but as the 99% owner, Lansdown had to approve Dawe's recommendation, so in that sense, yeah, he was appointed by Lansdown. 

Not his choice though 

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Not his choice though 

True

[NickJ]

7 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Nice summary. The last question is answered by yes!

There's always hope. Or, as I always said to my kids, there aren't problems, just solutions waiting to be discovered.