Sunderland away match thread

[Natchfever]

6 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Well, as I said, I'm prepared to give him a summer. And he'll get that anyway, so everyone will have to accept it

Im not accepting it, so not renewing my SC.

Not everyone is a lemming.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Well, as I said, I'm prepared to give him a summer. And he'll get that anyway, so everyone will have to accept it

I know you are, but the constant dragging back to Nige is futile.  Why not actually detail what you’re positive about, why he deserves the summer.  Although saying “I’m prepared to give him the summer”, doesn’t sound like you’re wholly convinced???

I don’t have to “accept it”, because I never not accepted it…I don’t make the decisions. It’s just an opinion.  Im not gonna throw my toys out of the pram on an opinion.  I’ll support whoever is in charge (Pulis an exception), I don’t dislike the bloke, I just don’t feel he’s quite up to it, nor is he a good fit for City.

[firstdivision]

2 hours ago, Alessandro said:

I agree with much of your post, it's a very sensible, realistic one.

But I just want to pick up on your sentences in bold - I've seen this kind of comment quite a lot on here recently:

Something along the lines of "this is the way it's alway's been with City" or "it used to be much worse" and "it's football, it's tough, nothing's a given" etc etc.

And I just don't like it. At all - it's so...defeatist. So unambitious. So mediocre.

Do you think that's the attitude Ipswich have at the moment? Or Luton before them. Or Brentford before them? I could go on.

Yes it's a tough league and nothing is a given, but we should as a club and a fan base, be striving and demanding so much more from the club, even with the level of investment, IMO, we should be competing higher up the league.

The reason's for that have been done to death - but I personally don't subscribe to this "it is what it is" attitude. 

I believe the "10 seasons in the championship" is not necessarily the badge of honour you think. Why:

Well IMO mid-table championship is Bristol City's par - the fact we've spent so much time under that level shows how we've underachieved as a club and the fact we've been talking about 'potential' for 20 years shows every year more at mid-table in the championship is not fulfilling our potential.

 

 

 

Of course. We should always strive to achieve and be successful. I was merely trying to provide some context. 

Plus, I remember some serious investment a few seasons back but that landed us in huge financial peril after Covid. It was not such a long ago we were second in the league at Christmas as a result of that investment. It’s not easy getting the balance right. 

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Jerseybean said:

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/video/interviews/manning-on-sunderland-stalemate/

Can't argue with that. He's saying what we've been saying.

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

If he’s now happy it’s a 55 game season then how does that square with bitching about the number of games we had to play earlier in the season?

I wonder who else I think of that has been bitching a lot since Manning has been in charge Silv....? 

4 minutes ago, David Brent said:

I can’t be the only one who enjoyed our football under Nigel. Where has the idea that we’ve been ‘dire for years’ come from.

I enjoyed the counter-attacking style we had which worked for what we had available. I personally particularly enjoyed watching WSM season. 

I don't think it was particularly good a lot of the time, as the results show. There was a lot of direct football to put it politely. I think the belief tlwas that when he had better players, he would adapt to better performances. I used to get frustrated sometimes that we used to bomb forward on the break and play a terrible ball and then have to soak up pressure again. I'm not even criticising Nige here. I think both he and Manning have struggled to get it to click with this squad.

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, David Brent said:

Where has the idea that we’ve been ‘dire for years’ come from.

It comes from not having a good reason!

[AshtonGreat]

13 minutes ago, David Brent said:

You keep comparing apples and oranges 

Not at all. It's two men working with much the same set of players

[mozo]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

It comes from not having a good reason!

It comes from the results. And we weren't dropping points with glorious performances. We've been inconsitent and error-prone ever since LJ had his final wobble.

Even before our injury crisis got ridiculous this season we were pretty up and down.

[AshtonGreat]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I know you are, but the constant dragging back to Nige is futile.  Why not actually detail what you’re positive about, why he deserves the summer.  Although saying “I’m prepared to give him the summer”, doesn’t sound like you’re wholly convinced???

I don’t have to “accept it”, because I never not accepted it…I don’t make the decisions. It’s just an opinion.  Im not gonna throw my toys out of the pram on an opinion.  I’ll support whoever is in charge (Pulis an exception), I don’t dislike the bloke, I just don’t feel he’s quite up to it, nor is he a good fit for City.

They're fair points Dave, and as a paying customer you're more than entitled to your opinion. As I've previously stated, I would prefer to have neither Manning nor Pearson in charge. Neither have filled me with much enthusiasm. But equally, I think some of the criticism of Manning has been ramped up because of what happened to his predecessor, and I don't think that's entirely fair

[Ashtongreight]

22 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Sure, and he did some good work here - but two and a half years on, his results were much the same as the guy who's supposedly out of his depth

You completely ignore context, Nige’s job essentially was to keep us up whilst major cost cuttings were made to avoid FFP etc, LM’s job is to take us forward from a more stable position.
 

Nige succeeded as we are still a championship club. To date, by your own admission, LM has failed, not only has he failed to improve our position, we’ve actually performed worse. 

[David Brent]

6 minutes ago, mozo said:

I don't think it was particularly good a lot of the time, as the results show. There was a lot of direct football to put it politely. I think the belief tlwas that when he had better players, he would adapt to better performances. I used to get frustrated sometimes that we used to bomb forward on the break and play a terrible ball and then have to soak up pressure again. I'm not even criticising Nige here. I think both he and Manning have struggled to get it to click with this squad.

Can’t agree. There was some direct football early on, which made sense with Chris Martin’s ability but overall there was a massive improvement to what we had seen previously. 
 

You can argue about lack of quality but we had a style that worked well for us and got the most out of the squad we had. I found games like, Norwich 1-0 at home last season for example, entertaining 

[mozo]

7 minutes ago, David Brent said:

Can’t agree. There was some direct football early on, which made sense with Chris Martin’s ability but overall there was a massive improvement to what we had seen previously. 
 

You can argue about lack of quality but we had a style that worked well for us and got the most out of the squad we had. I found games like, Norwich 1-0 at home last season for example, entertaining 

There were definitely games under Nige where it looked great and I enjoyed them too, but it was inconsistent as the results show you.

In those worse games, I do not believe that Nige was telling the players to launch it forwards as soon as they won the ball back, but in some games the players kept doing that. 

Nige talked about the need for consistent performances, to be clinical in both boxes and to be brave on the ball, and he never really achieved that with this group. With the right backing I think he would have got us there.

Same with Manning, his good games have been really good, but then the next week, you might get something really different. We need to see if he can get us there.

Edited April 7 by mozo

[Ashtongreight]

2 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

They're fair points Dave, and as a paying customer you're more than entitled to your opinion. As I've previously stated, I would prefer to have neither Manning nor Pearson in charge. Neither have filled me with much enthusiasm. But equally, I think some of the criticism of Manning has been ramped up because of what happened to his predecessor, and I don't think that's entirely fair

 Most of us would be onboard with Manning if he’d been successful since he’s been here despite the debacle of his appointment.
 

On that basis the criticism of him is fair, he’s still our manager and is likely to remain so regardless of mine, and others concerns. Therefore it’s in his hands to change our opinion of him. Over to you Liam. 

[TV Tom]

1 hour ago, phantom said:

You clearly know your football and I like your posts, but I'm amazed that you still have so much negativity about it all 

Personally I think the football on offer has been dire for many years and where we are now is no worse (or better) than in a very long time 

I hope you find the spark again in the team 

You can’t take him seriously if he’s saying he only stopped enjoying the football from November, where had he been for the previous five years ? 
His negativity towards Manning is blinding him 

[mozo]

13 minutes ago, Ashtongreight said:

 Most of us would be onboard with Manning if he’d been successful since he’s been here despite the debacle of his appointment.
 

On that basis the criticism of him is fair, he’s still our manager and is likely to remain so regardless of mine, and others concerns. Therefore it’s in his hands to change our opinion of him. Over to you Liam. 

I think some people would have been more patient with him had it not been for the debacle. 

[Alessandro]

1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

Of course. We should always strive to achieve and be successful. I was merely trying to provide some context. 

Plus, I remember some serious investment a few seasons back but that landed us in huge financial peril after Covid. It was not such a long ago we were second in the league at Christmas as a result of that investment. It’s not easy getting the balance right. 

As I say, one man’s context is another man’s excuses…

The second paragraph is more examples of mismanagement and underachievement - yes Steve did, relatively, have a go a few years ago. I say relatively, because it was still upper mid table budgets and we basically spent what we sold. 

But does that mean we don’t ever have a go again?

Or rather should the club learn from its mistakes and not gamble on putting unproven people in hugely important positions in the club? 
 

Maybe bring in someone trustworthy and experienced as CEO…like Gould instead of Ashton.

And a manager who’s been there and done it, like Pearson instead of Johnson.

Oh wait, we had those, but now we’re back to unproven again in Tinnion and Manning - and without the investment - and we should all just say oh well, it is what it is.

[Ashtongreight]

2 hours ago, Alessandro said:

As I say, one man’s context is another man’s excuses…

The second paragraph is more examples of mismanagement and underachievement - yes Steve did, relatively, have a go a few years ago. I say relatively, because it was still upper mid table budgets and we basically spent what we sold. 

But does that mean we don’t ever have a go again?

Or rather should the club learn from its mistakes and not gamble on putting unproven people in hugely important positions in the club? 
 

Maybe bring in someone trustworthy and experienced as CEO…like Gould instead of Ashton.

And a manager who’s been there and done it, like Pearson instead of Johnson.

Oh wait, we had those, but now we’re back to unproven again in Tinnion and Manning - and without the investment - and we should all just say oh well, it is what it is.

Context comes before, ie that was his target when he arrived, excuses are afterwards if the target is not communicated at the beginning. That’s why we were patient with him, he levelled with us from the beginning. 
 

edit

compare that to this time when the communication was LM would improve us THIS season, hence why many judge LM so harshly, now it IS excuses.

Edited April 7 by Ashtongreight

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, TV Tom said:

You can’t take him seriously if he’s saying he only stopped enjoying the football from November, where had he been for the previous five years ? 
His negativity towards Manning is blinding him 

You missed the WSM season, did you.

5 years...really

[Alessandro]

28 minutes ago, Ashtongreight said:

Context comes before, ie that was his target when he arrived, excuses are afterwards if the target is not communicated at the beginning. That’s why we were patient with him, he levelled with us from the beginning. 
 

edit

compare that to this time when the communication was LM would improve us THIS season, hence why many judge LM so harshly, now it IS excuses.

Presume you’re referring in first paragraph to Pearson? Second Manning.

I don’t disagree with you - but my point is what do both those statements have in common? 

The one denominator - Steve Lansdown and his board - A) Pearson and Gould clearing up THEIR mess and B) Manning getting it from the fans because THEY again set him up for failure with their top 6 comments.

[Red Billy]

Watched the highlights on sky sports. Turns out it was just a Max O’Leary greatest saves reel.

[phantom]

5 hours ago, Ashtongreight said:

You completely ignore context, Nige’s job essentially was to keep us up whilst major cost cuttings were made to avoid FFP etc, LM’s job is to take us forward from a more stable position.
 

Nige succeeded as we are still a championship club. To date, by your own admission, LM has failed, not only has he failed to improve our position, we’ve actually performed worse. 

So by your explanation, NP had to get rid of players etc 

LM has picked up the smaller slimmed down squad but is expected to get something out of the squad that NP didn't 

[phantom]

6 hours ago, glynriley said:

I’m going all Sean O’Driscoll now. 
 

Stupid Question.

Nobody ‘specifically’ said he’s a better coach, but the implication from the 3 stooges, was that someone would come in and improve squad performance.

Ergo…

 

 

So nobody said it, it's just how people perceived comments made 

Yet many still quote it as fact 

[phantom]

9 hours ago, 95red said:

Sum up last  3 games ,Leicester decent great win ,Leicester  3 0r 4 easy chances missed take  that against  top of league. Plymouth  on a awful run there for the taking first  35 we were crap ,second  half better just. Yesterday Sunderland  on a awful  run also ,points a point but Max saves us could have been 3 or 4 down we were crap  again. 7 points  gets us safe. Next season  for me under Manning  going to be another long boring slog no confidence  in him at all .

 

That's called football 

Take a look at all games this weekend and that before 

[phantom]

6 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I can't remember specifically , but the Club statement said  (along with the top 6 bollox ) that we were under performing and that Manning was brought in to take us to the next level . Paraphrasing , and I really can't be arsed to search for the interview , but that was the gist of it. 
So the they implied Pearson was under performing with the squad and Manning would improve us . Mind you it was supposed to be a seamless , perfect fit for continuity . In that respect , I feel sorry for Manning . 

Again, nobody actually said it 

For those that keep quoting the top six comments, I'm pretty sure that's a misquote as well 

Though we were promised European football under LJ weren't we? 

[AshtonGreat]

8 hours ago, Ashtongreight said:

You completely ignore context, Nige’s job essentially was to keep us up whilst major cost cuttings were made to avoid FFP etc, LM’s job is to take us forward from a more stable position.
 

Nige succeeded as we are still a championship club. To date, by your own admission, LM has failed, not only has he failed to improve our position, we’ve actually performed worse. 

Well, that may have been his remit at the beginning

[Shauntaylor85]

It was dire, a long way to go to watch a bore draw. My first visit there and what a terrible ground, they are definitely the Gas and Spurs to City and Arsenal. But my word are we a poor side going forward, I honestly cannot recall watching a city side with a lack of players who get you off the edge of your seat. Could literally trade the whole forward line. As for Twine, I don’t see what the fuss is about, nor why Manning wants to set up in this way. Positives are we have a very solid back line and Max is proving the critics wrong, me included, albeit I would still like to see some decent competition. 

[Alessandro]

5 hours ago, phantom said:

Again, nobody actually said it 

For those that keep quoting the top six comments, I'm pretty sure that's a misquote as well 

Though we were promised European football under LJ weren't we? 

Really? Why do people keep saying they never said this?!?…..:

“We all wanted Nigel to achieve our ambition to be promoted but, with our recent results, feel that now is the time to make a change to give the club the best possible chance of success.” - JL

‘We want to get promoted this year' - Bristol City board on decision to sack Nigel Pearson - from Gavin Marshall

 

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/video/interviews/jon-lansdown-talks-about-coaching-change/ 

Takes JL 30 seconds to mention premier league and best squad we’ve had here in my time - to name a few quick quotes.

[BCFC31]

14 hours ago, Unan said:

His best game of the season afaia, they don’t like him at all and think he’s a dud

Then our recruitment team know what to do get him in asap as from what I saw he definitely isn't a dud 

[Unan]

10 hours ago, BCFC31 said:

Then our recruitment team know what to do get him in asap as from what I saw he definitely isn't a dud 

I bet Palace fans said the same thing about O’Dowda, Watford about Freddie Hinds etc 

Edited April 8 by Unan

[Numero Uno]

12 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Really? Why do people keep saying they never said this?!?…..:

“We all wanted Nigel to achieve our ambition to be promoted but, with our recent results, feel that now is the time to make a change to give the club the best possible chance of success.” - JL

‘We want to get promoted this year' - Bristol City board on decision to sack Nigel Pearson - from Gavin Marshall

 

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/video/interviews/jon-lansdown-talks-about-coaching-change/ 

Takes JL 30 seconds to mention premier league and best squad we’ve had here in my time - to name a few quick quotes.

Because Liam's performance has also been nowhere near what the suits expected Nige to deliver it is causing quite a few who supported Nige's sacking to pretend things were not said which are obviously a complete embarrassment in hindsight and were called out as such at the time by the many..............

 

14 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

Well, that may have been his remit at the beginning

Two and a bit years, the majority of his tenure, not just a couple of months "at the beginning". Nothing like minimisation................

[phantom]

12 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Really? Why do people keep saying they never said this?!?…..:

“We all wanted Nigel to achieve our ambition to be promoted but, with our recent results, feel that now is the time to make a change to give the club the best possible chance of success.” - JL

‘We want to get promoted this year' - Bristol City board on decision to sack Nigel Pearson - from Gavin Marshall

 

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/video/interviews/jon-lansdown-talks-about-coaching-change/ 

Takes JL 30 seconds to mention premier league and best squad we’ve had here in my time - to name a few quick quotes.

Thank you, you have confirmed that nobody actually said anything about guaranteeing top 6 etc, just that we want to get promoted this year

Perhaps people can stop using that line now as it is proven to be incorrect?

17 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Because Liam's performance has also been nowhere near what the suits expected Nige to deliver it is causing quite a few who supported Nige's sacking to pretend things were not said which are obviously a complete embarrassment in hindsight and were called out as such at the time by the many..............

 

Two and a bit years, the majority of his tenure, not just a couple of months "at the beginning". Nothing like minimisation................

Certainly not the first City Manager in recent times that have been expected to cut costs etc and stay in the league