A parallel universe….Sheffield

[Davefevs]

Was reading this article from the Sheffield Star:

and pulled out these sections:

replace Owls with Robins and Rohl with Manning, maybe? @Silvio Dante

the final sentence could be us since Leicester after the painful run of games playing a mid / low block

similar scenario ahead of Easter, Manning needing results, a more pragmatic, “get at them higher up the pitch” approach.

Tactics, or at least the way the game plays out influenced by opposition.

A balance of styles!!!

@spudski you’ll like this.  Crosses = low percentage opportunity, especially ones outside the lines of the 18 yard box.

Balance v Purity.  A realisation that you cannot play a one-dimensional game like Leicester / Southampton without top players.

[mozo]

Dave, did Oxford play pure Manningball? If so, I'm wondering why they could do it but we can't?

By the way, I lived in Sheffield, and it is like a parallel universe 

[Silvio Dante]

24 minutes ago, mozo said:

Dave, did Oxford play pure Manningball? If so, I'm wondering why they could do it but we can't?

By the way, I lived in Sheffield, and it is like a parallel universe 

Define “could do it”

Back end of last season Oxford had a lot of draws, and narrowly escaped relegation - LM pretty much finished where he found them. This season they started like a train but were outdoing their xG (see George Elek comments). There is a question if they had it cracked or were just in good form.

MK Dons could do it - because they had been set up as a squad that way and had three of the best players in the division for that system.

The overall answer though is quality of squad/team and suitability to system. MK Dons (season one) had a squad set up to play it and some of the divisions best players. Season two they had the former but not the latter, hence failed. Oxford season one didn’t have a squad set up to play it - heavy recruitment meant they did season two.

If we’re defining Manningball as possession heavy and patient football then most sides want the ball - Leicester play that way, Southampton play that way, Swansea play that way (all to varying degrees). You need either better players than anyone else had at the level (see MK Dons) or a better coach in order to get up there. Our squad is set up to different strengths, and vitally, the quality of opposing players and coaches is better than at league one.

Put our squad in league one and they could probably play “Manningball” with some success due to the inferior opposition. Try and do it with this squad at this level - it won’t work because we don’t have the best players at this level for that system, it doesn’t play to their strengths, and you’re up against better players.

(See also Russell Martin relative position at Swansea and Southampton)

btw good article @Davefevs 

[Davefevs]

Ta @Silvio Dante

@mozo Silv's response is not a million miles away from what I would've posted.  Oxford didn't have as many technical players as MKD relatively, so not exactly the same style.  Which is why when he first came in I hoped he'd base it what he had here, show adaptability, etc.  But I think he tried to go more like his MKD-style than Oxford per se, and that run pre-Easter was pretty worrying.  Whatever happened, post-Easter has been a compromise, some pragmatism, but whatever him and Hoggy might say it is different to pre-Easter, but I don't think he'll openly say anything other than it was due to time on the grass.  And in some ways that's ok.  Maybe a bravery to change whatever he changed couldn't be done without a two week gap.

My hope is that this run, even if results have slightly exceeded performance, is the 'new norm'.  Even if results regress to performance, I still see that as more than acceptable.

And you could argue 'intent' (a simple word to describe several things), is a case of 'fortune favours the brave'.  Id say Ipswich are reaping the rewards of that in a division where there is quite a cautiousness in approach borne out of generalisation of 'young coach' approaches.  Ipswich aren't the second best team, but they go for it, and have got their rewards.

If that makes sense.

I don't buy 'they aren't his players'.  No manager, unless they go 2.5 / 3 years into role gets anything like 'their players'.  The contract cycle, especially as we really come out of the covid cycle, dictates you have to make do with what you have by and large.  Evolution, not revolution.

[Colemanballs]

23 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Ta @Silvio Dante

@mozo Silv's response is not a million miles away from what I would've posted.  Oxford didn't have as many technical players as MKD relatively, so not exactly the same style.  Which is why when he first came in I hoped he'd base it what he had here, show adaptability, etc.  But I think he tried to go more like his MKD-style than Oxford per se, and that run pre-Easter was pretty worrying.  Whatever happened, post-Easter has been a compromise, some pragmatism, but whatever him and Hoggy might say it is different to pre-Easter, but I don't think he'll openly say anything other than it was due to time on the grass.  And in some ways that's ok.  Maybe a bravery to change whatever he changed couldn't be done without a two week gap.

My hope is that this run, even if results have slightly exceeded performance, is the 'new norm'.  Even if results regress to performance, I still see that as more than acceptable.

And you could argue 'intent' (a simple word to describe several things), is a case of 'fortune favours the brave'.  Id say Ipswich are reaping the rewards of that in a division where there is quite a cautiousness in approach borne out of generalisation of 'young coach' approaches.  Ipswich aren't the second best team, but they go for it, and have got their rewards.

If that makes sense.

I don't buy 'they aren't his players'.  No manager, unless they go 2.5 / 3 years into role gets anything like 'their players'.  The contract cycle, especially as we really come out of the covid cycle, dictates you have to make do with what you have by and large.  Evolution, not revolution.

And this is why, despite being thrilled with the recent uptick in performances, I remain concerned about next season. 

[DeParis]

On 27/04/2024 at 09:03, Davefevs said:

Was reading this article from the Sheffield Star:

and pulled out these sections:

replace Owls with Robins and Rohl with Manning, maybe? @Silvio Dante

the final sentence could be us since Leicester after the painful run of games playing a mid / low block

similar scenario ahead of Easter, Manning needing results, a more pragmatic, “get at them higher up the pitch” approach.

Tactics, or at least the way the game plays out influenced by opposition.

A balance of styles!!!

@spudski you’ll like this.  Crosses = low percentage opportunity, especially ones outside the lines of the 18 yard box.

Balance v Purity.  A realisation that you cannot play a one-dimensional game like Leicester / Southampton without top players.

Manning, Schumacher, Cifuentes and Rohl have all done this, and they have all built on and made their sides better because of it. 

[Sir Geoff]

21 minutes ago, DeParis said:

Manning, Schumacher, Cifuentes and Rohl have all done this, and they have all built on and made their sides better because of it. 

Define better. We are still mid table, Stoke,QPR and Wednesday have all been in and around the relegation places until the last 7/10 days 

[DeParis]

23 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Define better. We are still mid table, Stoke,QPR and Wednesday have all been in and around the relegation places until the last 7/10 days 

Well compare the recent run of form to where we were prior, on a terrible run. I would also argue that we are playing better football now than we did under Pearson, Holden and the later stages of the Johnson era. Clearly the Swansea game was a turning point where Manning went in with a very different approach. Schumacher has openly done the same thing at Stoke, both sides now reaping the benefits. Yes we are still mid-table but, for the first time in a long time I’m excited for the season ahead and I think we can all acknowledge that we are playing with real quality on the pitch.

All 4 have done a really good job so far, especially at QPR and Wednesday. More so Wednesday as QPR have in my view always had a squad that shouldn’t be flirting with relegation. Ainsworth struggled, perhaps an example of what can happen when you don’t pause and reflect, Swansea clearly a big turning point for us.

I imagine both Manning and Schumacher have a similar PPG since taking over, could be wrong though. 

EDIT: Manning 1.35 PPG Schumacher 1.25 PPG

 

Edited April 29 by DeParis

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 hours ago, DeParis said:

Manning, Schumacher, Cifuentes and Rohl have all done this, and they have all built on and made their sides better because of it. 

We are not better and have not taken the steps forward that we all expected us to take. 

[beaverface]

On 27/04/2024 at 09:03, Davefevs said:

Was reading this article from the Sheffield Star:

and pulled out these sections:

replace Owls with Robins and Rohl with Manning, maybe? @Silvio Dante

the final sentence could be us since Leicester after the painful run of games playing a mid / low block

similar scenario ahead of Easter, Manning needing results, a more pragmatic, “get at them higher up the pitch” approach.

Tactics, or at least the way the game plays out influenced by opposition.

A balance of styles!!!

@spudski you’ll like this.  Crosses = low percentage opportunity, especially ones outside the lines of the 18 yard box.

Balance v Purity.  A realisation that you cannot play a one-dimensional game like Leicester / Southampton without top players.

This basically sums up where we were when Nigel Pearson first took over. We were at a point where we were shipping a lot of goals and we couldn't even win a corner.

Rather than try to instill a particular style or flavour that Nigel Pearson preferred, he basically played a lot more percentages and used the tools at his disposal, which was basically play off of Chris Martin and gets the likes of Semenyo and Weiman to run off him. It wasn't pretty, but it did a job, unlike the likes of Sean O'Driscoll who IMO tried to change the philosophy too quickly, and ultimately led to our relegation.

I've a lot of time for NP, and he got the team playing a couple of different styles in his time with us, and that's probably why it was so disappointing that we didn't get to see his ideal line up on how he wanted us to play in the long term. I genuinely thought given time he would create a team not only to get us promotion, but keep us in the top division. He almost had the succession planning for himself in place with the likes of Andy King and\or Jason Euell.

But back on subject though, the above also seems to be the approach the likes of Neil Warnock has taken - get the players back to basics, make them hard to beat, compete for everything up top, and scrimp & scrape those points for safety. It's only once the season is over and a fresh new season comes about that this approach get's found out.

I'll look forward to seeing what Rohl does next season, but it sounds like he knows his onions and I'd expect them to be mid-table easily.

[DeParis]

57 minutes ago, beaverface said:

This basically sums up where we were when Nigel Pearson first took over. We were at a point where we were shipping a lot of goals and we couldn't even win a corner.

Rather than try to instill a particular style or flavour that Nigel Pearson preferred, he basically played a lot more percentages and used the tools at his disposal, which was basically play off of Chris Martin and gets the likes of Semenyo and Weiman to run off him. It wasn't pretty, but it did a job, unlike the likes of Sean O'Driscoll who IMO tried to change the philosophy too quickly, and ultimately led to our relegation.

I've a lot of time for NP, and he got the team playing a couple of different styles in his time with us, and that's probably why it was so disappointing that we didn't get to see his ideal line up on how he wanted us to play in the long term. I genuinely thought given time he would create a team not only to get us promotion, but keep us in the top division. He almost had the succession planning for himself in place with the likes of Andy King and\or Jason Euell.

But back on subject though, the above also seems to be the approach the likes of Neil Warnock has taken - get the players back to basics, make them hard to beat, compete for everything up top, and scrimp & scrape those points for safety. It's only once the season is over and a fresh new season comes about that this approach get's found out.

I'll look forward to seeing what Rohl does next season, but it sounds like he knows his onions and I'd expect them to be mid-table easily.

I’ve got a lot of time for Nigel too, but I can’t help but feel he is viewed with significant rose tinted glasses, people forget he had some excellent players at his disposal. I remember the 21/22 season, he had the likes of Kalas, Bentley, Dasilva, Klose, Vyner etc…..and yet we had the 2nd worst defense in the division. Saying that he had a proper rebuild job to do, either way, it is what it is.

[Mr Popodopolous]

57 minutes ago, DeParis said:

I’ve got a lot of time for Nigel too, but I can’t help but feel he is viewed with significant rose tinted glasses, people forget he had some excellent players at his disposal. I remember the 21/22 season, he had the likes of Kalas, Bentley, Dasilva, Klose, Vyner etc…..and yet we had the 2nd worst defense in the division. Saying that he had a proper rebuild job to do, either way, it is what it is.

The culture inherited and the financial emergency can supersede some of that.

Klose joined halfway in, Vyner of 2021-21 was not, never was the Vyner we see today. Absolutely was not.

[DeParis]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The culture inherited and the financial emergency can supersede some of that.

Klose joined halfway in, Vyner of 2021-21 was not, never was the Vyner we see today. Absolutely was not.

Was the culture inherited really that bad?  I agree re:Vyner, either way, never really understand how and why he struggled so badly to get a coherent defence, the quality was hardly on par with the likes of the Rotherham who we saw Saturday.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, DeParis said:

I’ve got a lot of time for Nigel too, but I can’t help but feel he is viewed with significant rose tinted glasses, people forget he had some excellent players at his disposal. I remember the 21/22 season, he had the likes of Kalas, Bentley, Dasilva, Klose, Vyner etc…..and yet we had the 2nd worst defense in the division. Saying that he had a proper rebuild job to do, either way, it is what it is.

How can you try and claim that the 2024 Vyner is the same as the 21/22 Vyner that was on his way out of the club. 

You've said some right bs before Lez? But this tops it all.