Academy -internal Appraisal Required

[graham b]

[Slave to the rhythm]

[BCFC_Dan]

What a pleasure it is to read a sensible post regarding the pros and cons of the academy system for once. It'll be interesting to see what response this provokes. 

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Personally, I think it's spot on.

I will always defend the principle of the Academy, but I am worried about our implementation of it.

It seems at the moment to be lacking leadership, the standards are too low, and it seems to be suffering from the excuse culture that has pervaded the rest of the club in recent years.

[Guest ashtonyate]

Having read post It still begs the question

Does A third division team million of pounds in debt and needing board members to bail them out with loans, need this mill stone hanging around its neck.

The long term benefit to the club is a best debaitable and at worst not worth the effort. When players can leave with contract offering other clubs to make a silly offer for them (Hill)

When you can sign ex academy players from premership club who would have had better coaching than we can offer and as good or better as the ex academy player we can produce what is the point?

We don't need all that involment when we could have a Centre of excelence to look after the local talent or what there is of it.

If Steve Lansdown and the board want to run coaching school thats up to them. Let them do it with their money,because remember all the money they put in is in a form of loans, and don't tell the fan the club must tighten it belt when they can waste money on pipe dreams

[Nibor]

Having read post It still begs the question

Does A third division team million of pounds in debt and needing board members to bail them out with loans, need this mill stone hanging around its neck.

The long term benefit to the club is a best debaitable and at worst not worth the effort. When players can leave with contract offering other clubs to make a silly offer for them (Hill)

When you can sign ex academy players from premership club who would have had better coaching than we can offer and as good or better as the ex academy player we can produce what is the point?

We don't need all that involment when we could have a Centre of excelence to look after the local talent or what there is of it.

If Steve Lansdown and the board want to run coaching school thats up to them. Let them do it with their money,because remember all the money they put in is in a form of loans, and don't tell the fan the club must tighten it belt when they can waste money on pipe dreams

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I think half of the reason the board fund the academy now in the third division is because they think it will be crucial to staying in the second division should we ever get there, and it's not something you can set up overnight.

It's provided 1/3 of our current first team squad, probably the lower cost third as well. There look to be more decent players in the pipeline, although we'd all love to see a few real stars make it through. I think it's a sounder investment than the money we've seen spent on transfers since our relegation, and without it we'd probably be in no less debt because the gaps in the team would have had to be plugged with signings which will cost more money in salary.

I agree with the concerns about our implementation of it. It does seem to get very poor match results, and you have to wonder about standard of the coaching. It's worth pointing out that for the large part the opposition are bigger clubs with more money but I still think our record could be better. However, no coach in the world can make a good player out of one with little talent, and to attract talented youngsters would a Centre of Excellence really be enough? We have to have at least a C of E so if you're doing something why not go the whole hog when you're probably only talking about an addition 3-400k on top of what the minimum would cost (ie about 10% of our annual expenditure).

Regarding exit trials, someone else mentioned in the other thread that they were only open to clubs with an academy. Anyone know the truth of this? I also feel that with alot of the players released from premiership academies being 1st and 2nd year scholars we'd find it hard to sign them without an academy for them to go into.

Nibor

[graham b]

  We have to have at least a C of E so if you're doing something why not go the whole hog when you're probably only talking about an addition 3-400k on top of what the minimum would cost (ie about 10% of our annual expenditure).

Nibor

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I believe that the differential cost between running an Academy and a Centre of Excellence would be significantly less than this. The quoted figure from Steve L was circa £400k for the cost of the Academy per annum. Subtract from that the cost of the Clifton College fees and the cost of running a Centre of Excellence and the figure you quote could well be halved.

However any cost would be too great if the Academy continues to under perform.

I would be looking for a far greater return from the investment at schoolboy level. I can not believe that there is such a dearth of talent in the Bristol catchment area that we can't find some schoolboys who have the basics within them that could not be coached forward to a successful professional career. Over usage of the exit trials is the first omission of failure. A continued over reliance on the transfer market is a final omission.

Two further points to throw into the general debate.

1. I believe that there are 38 academies in total. Knowing that Portsmouth for one do not have one then half of the Premiership Academies are not premiership clubs. Surely therefore we should be able to compete better than we do.

2. That Crewe who apparently are the benchmark for lower team academies to follow do not run a reserve team in any league!

[Cider Red Sam]

I also feel that with alot of the players released from premiership academies being 1st and 2nd year scholars we'd find it hard to sign them without an academy for them to go into.

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Very good point. Surprised it hadn't been brought up before actually.

My input to this debate would be that having an accademy does improve the standard of players coming through. At about the age of 11/12, I was in the school of excellence (I'm now 17). However, when they changed to an accademy, I was deemed not good enough, and was asked to leave (or thats the excuse they used anyway it was probably just simply because I wasn't good enough to make it )

[Nibor]

I believe that the differential cost between running an Academy and a Centre of Excellence would be significantly less than this. The quoted figure from Steve L was circa £400k for the cost of the Academy per annum. Subtract from that the cost of the Clifton College fees and the cost of running a Centre of Excellence and the figure you quote could well be halved.

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Quite possibly, it would depend on the difference between the two. I believe a Centre of Excellence has less stringent regulations about what you must provide so the club could spend as much or as little as they saw fit. I was trying to err on the side of caution, and even if it was the whole 400k it doesn't seem alot to me in comparison to the amount the club spends annually on everything else.

However any cost would be too great if the Academy continues to under perform.

I would be looking for a far greater return from the investment at schoolboy level. I can not believe that there is such a dearth of talent in the Bristol catchment area that we can't find some schoolboys who have the basics within them that could not be coached forward to a successful professional career. Over usage of the exit trials is the first omission of failure. A continued over reliance on the transfer market is a final omission.

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I agree to a point. I think you have to separate management of the first team from the academy in how you think. Tinnion's job is to get the best 24+ players he possibly can within his budget and get us promoted. He will clearly use academy players where possible because it's cheaper. I don't see using the transfer market or exit trials as a source of players as failure, we should judge players on their merits. The academy has provided 11 of our first team squad I think, and we seem to add 2-3 per season. That's sufficient to mean that in 10 years we could possibly have a whole squad of academy grads, provided none move on. I don't think the numbers of graduates becoming pros is the problem, I'd like to see the quality improve. I think this has to be done through coaching, through attracting better raw talent, and through carefully managing their transitions into pro football. Too many players come through and then sit in the squad for 6 months before going out on loans and eventually being released.

Two further points to throw into the general debate.

1. I believe that there are 38 academies in total. Knowing that Portsmouth for one do not have one then half of the Premiership Academies are not premiership clubs. Surely therefore we should be able to compete better than we do.

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Agree. We certainly should, and although the results aren't the academies main job (that being to produce good players) surely winning a fair proportion of the games is good for them. Personally I tend to be skeptical about our coaching setup, it does look a bit cosy from the outside.

2. That Crewe who apparently are the benchmark for lower team academies to follow do not run a reserve team in any league!

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Interesting. I still think reserve football could go a good long way to continuing the development of players who have moved onto pro deals but aren't good enoigh yet for the first 11, a gap we're plugging with loans. We need regular decent reserve opposition. Not to mention it would increase the match sharpness of the first teamers returning from injury or on the bench. The problem is that this football is usually run at a loss since attendances are much lower, hence clubs are less keen on it and the FA don't care at all.

regards

Nibor

[Percy Parrot]

some annoying git who I don't like but pretend to because he gives me lifts to and from football games said to me recently that the defeat at Orient is something like the third year in a row that our academy has gone out of the cup to non-academy sides- suggesting that we pay the extra cost of an academy with less of a product than a usual youth system. He may be wrong though- he usually is, especially about anything to do with New York and Madrid.

It certainly is time that the cost of the academy is looked at closely. For what it's worth I am a believer in it- but it has to produce and people need to get away from this automatic belief that the academy is going to produce the best footballers ever and make us loads of money.

As G has said- if we didn't have the academy we would still probably have produced some of the youngsters in recent years through a normal youth system/centre of excellence, but at far less cost. I don't know enough about the figures but it seems logical to me that the academy needs to justify itself better than it has been. If the extra cost at the moment is £200-300k per year then ask yourself- would we have been better to just have spent that money on players. Very possibly.

I have no magic solution and it can only produce players of quality if it attracts the potential in the first place. Maybe Bristol just doesn't have any good footballers? In which case we should consider scrapping it altogether.

My general feeling is that it is moving in the right direction and it is aiding the club, but it must always be open to the same scrutiny we afford to other parts of the club.

Of course had the Liam Rosenior thing not gone wrong we could now be pointing to the academy as having produced our best player for years and/or bringing in £1m+ transfer fee. BUT with Bosman etc. we have to accept the reality that there will be more cases like Liam's. If a player comes through that is that good- he is likely to be wanted and want to move on, and the Bosman compensation package will rarely if ever give the selling club the true value of that player.

[graham b]

As G has said- if we didn't have the academy we would still probably have produced some of the youngsters in recent years through a normal youth system/centre of excellence, but at far less cost.

.

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Never said that! I totally support the Academy in principle. I question our implimentation of the process, I question our ever dwindling level of success at the level and I would like to think that the Club is questioning it as well. I am far from confident that it will be. Things are far too comfortable for that!

[Guest ashtonyate]

The real question is if we never had an academy would we start one if the anwser is no you know what we should be doing closing it down.

If the anwser is yes would we want what we have now or better if its better it about time the board got to grips with it and sorted it out

[A Horse With No Name]

The real question is if we never had an academy would we start one if the anwser is no you know what we should be doing closing it down.

If the anwser is yes would we want what we have now or better if its better it about time the board got to grips with it and sorted it out

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That dot key on your keyboard is a full stop.

[Bristol Boy]

Liked the points in the post and, on a related matter, our lack of quality, or even quantity, Reserve Team football, Steve L has confirmed that, at the outset,U21 football was envisaged at Academy level,three years ago.

The educational aspects are important for younger people and I applaud that element of the content, not wishing to see these lads on the scrapheap at 19/20.

By educational, I don't necessarily mean academic.Skills are in short supply so Plumbing & other trades are needed.

I have suggested that we close the academy and use the money to fund a better standard of reserve team football, played, primarily away from home in order that we could compete against the Tottenhams & Arsenals of this world and use the premiership exit trials to source new blood.

The doesn't stop us having a youth team or apprentices.

The loan systems fine and normally takes players off the wage bill, to boot.

I suppose you need a Crystal ball to be right on this, however, I feel that certain aspects of the academy system owe more to snob value and academia than to the practicalites of modern lower league football.

Cotterills educational duties mean that, for example, he could not travel with the first team to Tranmere!

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and we had lots of Bristolians and players who came through the ranks in the squad last season, although, that seems to have diminished with the departure of the Browns, Burnell, Hill, Carey & Co.

It's a massive subject and this one will run and run.

[graham b]

The real question is if we never had an academy would we start one if the anwser is no you know what we should be doing closing it down.

If the anwser is yes would we want what we have now or better if its better it about time the board got to grips with it and sorted it out

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The Club was selected in 1998 for Academy status. Geographically the West and Wales were in danger of being under represented and we therefore we fulfilled very nicely the requirement for national coverage. Under Burnside and the driving force of John Laycock a structure that was within the necessary remit was set up. By a quirk of timing the Club had a set of youths which were the strongest for years and the first couple of seasons the Academy obtained a success that have not been equalled since.

Year on year there were increasing demands placed on the member clubs and the City were having some trouble in meeting these demands. The formation of the St George City Academy came at an opportune time. Not only did it help in reaching the demands for indoor training pitches etc but it also offered education within the state system- thus both providing the essential resource and saving the club money.

The Club now has everything in place to run a successful Academy. With this being so, the answer to your question is that we are in 2005 in an advantageous position to continue with the Academy.

The downside is that the Club has chosen to strip the Academy of two of its coaches alongside the appointment of Tinnion as manager. The success on the field at Academy level has not been good and the management of the Academy has to be subject to question.

To me we now have a structure of physical resource available that would be the envy of any sub Premiership club. We now have an educational system that is better fitted to the City scholars that is costing us nothing. Unfortunately we have alongside this our own Academy which is not performing well. It is this under performance which needs to be investigated and any necessary improvement implemented.

With this background it seems that the Club is commited to the Academy. The choice therefore shouldn't be do we run it or not. The choice should be how to make it more successful. The choice should be how to integrate a successful Academy into a successful Club.

[bobby]

With this background it seems that the Club is commited to the Academy. The choice therefore shouldn't be do we run it or not. The choice should be how to make it more successful. The choice should be how to integrate a successful Academy into a successful Club.

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Wise words indeed, I think that pretty much sums it up for me to. What is currently lacking, why do so few academy youngsters actually make it through into the first team on a regular basis - the argument about age seems to be less and less relevant now with so many young (17-18 year olds) making it into premiership and championship sides, why not more at our level? Why do so many get shunted out to non league sides (if they are not good enough, why is that)?

Do we just not attract the quality or is the level of coaching not up to scratch? All questions I hope the club is asking regularly and trying to do something about it.

I thought a number of our Academy youngsters had looked pretty good in the last couple of years pre season games (Simpson, Hawkins, Holly, Anyinsah) but now they have either gone or are rotting in the reserves - why? We seem to be bringing in experienced older players instead from other clubs (presumably on higher wages) rather than bringing on our own youngsters.

I recognise the need for a mix of experience and I think we all know what happens when too many youngsters are thrown into the team, but surely there has to be some hope for them, or they will leave anyway.

Or maybe they are just not good enough!

[RedUn]

The Club now has everything in place to run a successful Academy. With this being so, the answer to your question is that we are in 2005  in an advantageous position to continue with the Academy.

Exactly

The downside is that the Club has chosen to strip the Academy of two of its coaches alongside the appointment of Tinnion as manager. The success on the field at Academy level has not been good and the management of the Academy has to be subject to question.

Cost cutting has further reduced staff strength whereby people have taken on other jobs as well as their own - for example, the Assistant Director with special responsibility for coaching the coaches now runs the women's team as well, and the Academy Recruitment Officer doubles-up as first team kitman. there may be others for all I know.

To me we now have a structure of physical resource available that would be the envy of any sub Premiership club. We now have an educational system that is better fitted to the City scholars that is costing us nothing. Unfortunately we have alongside this our own Academy which is not performing well. It is this under performance which needs to be investigated and any necessary improvement implemented.

Aye - above all, what I feel is needed is a cultural shift which sends out messages of determination, hunger, ambition, etc., not just to the scholars but to those of us looking in from outside.

For example, in the only game I've managed to see this year our U18s were beaten by a Reading team who were no more skillful than our lads but were stronger in body and mind; in my experience, one leads to the other. I spoke to the fathers of one lad from each team ... Reading have a weights session every day as part of their training programme (tailored to individual needs), with our lot its voluntary! ... for how many years have we being saying that our teams are made up of lightweights?

With this background it seems that the Club is commited to the Academy. The choice therefore shouldn't be do we run it or not. The choice should be how to make it more successful. The choice should be how to integrate a successful Academy into a successful Club.

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In those last two words - successful club - we have the nub of the problem. The failure (yes it was Danny) to achieve at first team level has an impact throughout the club; each passing year in third grade football has caused the board to tighten the belt another notch; depending on the quality of people involved that can either become an excuse for further failure (the "cosy club" option) or the catalyst to achieve ...

[GrahamC]

Lots of excellent points, well made.

I would just like to offer one further contribution, the idea of us playing reserve games permanently away against the likes of Tottenham, Arsenal etc is all very good in theory, but the bottom line is they just don't want to play us.

It is like trying to get an invitation to a party that the host doesn't want you to attend.

[graham b]

Exactly

For example, in the only game I've managed to see this year our U18s were beaten by a Reading team who were no more skillful than our lads but were stronger in body and mind; in my experience, one leads to the other. I spoke to the fathers of one lad from each team ... Reading have a weights session every day as part of their training programme (tailored to individual needs), with our lot its voluntary! ... for how many years have we being saying that our teams are made up of lightweights?

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Strangely that was exactly what my son was saying on the way to the Youth Cup game on Tuesday. He was looking for a team that wouldn't be out muscled and would play with grit in their belly..... and that was exactly what we didn't get.

[zookeeper]

I believe that the differential cost between running an Academy and a Centre of Excellence would be significantly less than this. The quoted figure from Steve L was circa £400k for the cost of the Academy per annum. Subtract from that the cost of the Clifton College fees and the cost of running a Centre of Excellence and the figure you quote could well be halved.

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From next year I believe that the academy will not be using Clifton College's Playing fields and will be firmly based at St George. The contract they have with the College is being renegotiated to reflect this. The one thing I would say about this is that the academy were only here because of the quality of the match pitches not meeting the requirement this season. I have not heard anyone say that they have been improved on though.

Do we just not attract the quality or is the level of coaching not up to scratch?  All questions I hope the club is asking regularly and trying to do something about it.

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I was recently involved in a conversation with one of the older coaches and his opinion was that there were a lot of these coaches were hanging on by the skin of their teeth. My knowledge of the coaching is that we have two definative age groups. We have the old timers, the amots of this world and then we have the recently retired, Taylors. We don't have many of the experienced yet not over the hill coaches.

In my opinion a lot of people within the club know that the coaching structure and the coaches are not good enough.

[bobby]

In my opinion a lot of people within the club know that the coaching structure and the coaches are not good enough.

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If that is the case, any idea what they are planning to do about it if anything?

[zookeeper]

If that is the case, any idea what they are planning to do about it if anything?

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They have started to do some things about it with some coaches leaving their roles this season. The problem as I see it is that we haven't replaced the loses but have only moved people around and given coaches more jobs.

As for knowing what the club are going to do, I don't.

It was an opinion based on the conversation with one of the coaches in which there was a total lack of enthusiasm and him agreeing that a few of the coaches are hanging on (this may be to do with the financial implication of the club, but would you really want to remove coaches who are developing players).

I won't hazard a guess to what the club are going to do about it but it would be interesting to have more of an insight into this side of the game.

I believe that the club has hit a plateau in taking the coaching forward. The club are actively seeking better facilities (or they have led us to believe this) but how much knowledge do we have within the club to make this choice. We need to seek the advice of people. I would like to see the use of a few more consultants to increase our skill sets and get the most out of what we have got.

[Percy Parrot]

Never said that! I totally support the Academy in principle. I question our implimentation of the process, I question our ever dwindling level of success at the level and I would like to think that the Club is questioning it as well. I am far from confident that it will be. Things are far too comfortable for that!

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G,

you are a plank. I'm not saying you didn't support an academy but that losing the academy would not mean we would produce no more young players. ie- it is very possible that without academy status (and costs) that some of the likes of Rosenior, Coles etc would have broken through anyway in the 'old' youth set up.

[Guest hairyshamrock]

I am not saying that everything you have said has not made sense, as it has. But a lot of our young players who have left have only ever had one, maybe 2 chances in the first team, Simpson has had less.

As for your worry about the results, if you ask any member of the academy coaching staff they will tell you that the performance is the important aspect. However, if you ask any Dutch or French youth coach (the masters of raising quality youngsters) they will tell you that only one team should be looking for results... THE FIRST TEAM. The rest of the teams, even the reserves should be looking firstly for a good, quality and solid performance - with that, the results will surely and slowly come.

[zookeeper]

I am not saying that everything you have said has not made sense, as it has.  But a lot of our young players who have left have only ever had one, maybe 2 chances in the first team, Simpson has had less. 

As for your worry about the results, if you ask any member of the academy coaching staff they will tell you that the performance is the important aspect.  However, if you ask any Dutch or French youth coach (the masters of raising quality youngsters) they will tell you that only one team should be looking for results... THE FIRST TEAM.  The rest of the teams, even the reserves should be looking firstly for a good, quality and solid performance - with that, the results will surely and slowly come.

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For a one off game this may be applicable but over the course of the season I don't think you will get many of these coaches saying this.

When in football does losing get you anywhere. We need that winning attitude to come from every angle. Winning breeds confidence and improves players performance.

I would like to know how you can claim that all of these coaches share the same belief. Seems a tad audacious to me.

[Slave to the rhythm]

However, if you ask any Dutch or French youth coach (the masters of raising quality youngsters) they will tell you that only one team should be looking for results... THE FIRST TEAM.  The rest of the teams, even the reserves should be looking firstly for a good, quality and solid performance - with that, the results will surely and slowly come.

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Sorry, I disagree. Football is a results driven business and that's true at every level. Surely, if our academy boys are losing consistently then we have to do something to rectify that? It is not good for a young player's confidence to be part of a team which loses week in and week out. Players do not develop a "winners mentality" if they become too accustomed to losing.

I agree that winning and losing is not what matters if you are teaching a child of 7 to play the game, but we are talking about young professionals here. At their age, they should have a burning desire to win.

[BCFC_Dan]

Maybe I'm being simplistic here, but wouldn't a good academy with good players win most of its games anyway, regardless of whether results matter or not?

[Barneyredballs]

It is difficult in todays market to say that spending £500,000 per anum is a good investment for players, as you could (if you had the patience) create a side which cost you nothing in transfer fees from Frees/Bosmans. However 3 years ago when there was still silly money in the game, it looked like the ONLY way that we could survive. No doubt like in life, the boom and bust cycle will re-emerge and big money will again be spent on mediocre players; and if we have an academy at our disposal with 5 players who can play first team football (as we did 3/4 years ago) then we may well look back and think it was a v.sound investment.

This is a long term investment and I for one feel that if the coaching is right, with the catchment area we can reach; it will build an excellent foundation for the club; whatever the player market is like.

We find ourselves in a constant state of intolerance of boards/managers/players as we have a big fan base, a sound history and a gert nice stadium; and are in div.2.

Does anyone know what the aspirations of our club realistically are?

Take Crewe, they will surely be playing each year for survival in the Championship. The board knows it, the players know it, the manager knows it and the fans know it. They produce good quality players and sell them on to keep their club in a good financial and footballing position. Patience is huge at Crewe, with no massive need for promotion. Imagine the fun you could have with all the pressure being removed?

Not sure what I'm trying to say here except, the Academy set up should support this club for the future, IF it is run properly from top to bottom.

[Guest ashtonyate]

But why do we need an academy

1 Is it to bring on local youth which i have pointed out that the area is not a hot bed of talent.

2 To bring on players to play in the second & third divisions which can be got from ex premership academy young players.

3 Some silly ideal that you get loyalty from players you produce

4 Because the board have not got the guts to call it a day

3 As a snob value to hold over Rovers or makes the club directory look good

You lot all agree it is not doing what it should be. Is it the young players are not good enough or the coaches are not good enough. How much and how long will it take to put right and what will the club get out of it in the long run

[zookeeper]

But why do we need an academy

1 Is it to bring on local youth which i have pointed out that the area is not  a hot bed of talent.

2 To bring on players to play in the second & third divisions which can be got from ex premership academy young players.

3 Some silly ideal that you get loyalty from players you produce

4 Because the board have not got the guts to call it a day

3 As a snob value to hold over Rovers or makes the club directory look good

You lot all agree it is not doing what it should be. Is it the young players are not good enough or the coaches are not good enough. How much and how long will it take to put right and what will the club get out of it in the long run

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We are highlighting the fact that the club is not performing as well as it should be. This fact is also applicable to the vast majority of the way the club is performing. There is room for improvement and we are discussing the way this can be done and the cause for the failings. We are not merely saying that it is not performing.

All of those 5 aspects you mention have been discussed to death and by now you should know our different beliefs, that is if you have read any of our posts!

Oh and by the way 5 comes after 4!!

[RedUn]

...

No doubt like in life, the boom and bust cycle will re-emerge and big money will again be spent on mediocre players; and if we have an academy at our disposal with 5 players who can play first team football (as we did 3/4 years ago) then we may well look back and think it was a v.sound investment.

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... pertinent point, given that UEFA will almost certainly be bringing in a regulation for Premiership squads to comprise a given number of home-qualified players. The impact of such a rule is likely to raise market values for the best youngsters - all the more reason for our academy to compete vigourously for its share of them.