megansdad Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 As ever after we have lost the forum seems to be a place where no matter what the manager does he cannot win. It seems to be universally agreed that the team played very poorly against Chesterfield yet the changes Tins is making have come in for criticism- what is he supposed to do? Haven't seen Brown play but with Tins supported by two young players with bags of energy and hopefully a rejuvenated Scott Murray there is cause for optimism. The Chief indicated that Chesterfield were delighted to see Tins substituted and Wilkshire did not have the same impact when he came on. Tins has now had time, and it takes time to assess the team and who wants to play under him and he is now making changes. We are 7th and there is plenty of time for this season to turn into the one we have all been hoping it will be so for heavens sake give the guy a chance. Those who chose to criticise the board for lack of ambition really are living in some kind of fantasy world where money grows on trees - not every club has an Abramovich and our club would be in a lot worse state without the money that has been ploughed in by this board. Every time anyone thinks to critcise they should consider: a. how many shares do they own- there have been opportunities and the rights issue was hardly well supported. b. how much of their net worth is invested in the club I shall be listening late in the night here in Singapore and hoping that come Saturday night there might be some humble pie being eaten and that come the end of the season there will be a mountain of it for some of you to consume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leedsred Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 As ever after we have lost the forum seems to be a place where no matter what the manager does he cannot win. It seems to be universally agreed that the team played very poorly against Chesterfield yet the changes Tins is making have come in for criticism- what is he supposed to do? Haven't seen Brown play but with Tins supported by two young players with bags of energy and hopefully a rejuvenated Scott Murray there is cause for optimism. The Chief indicated that Chesterfield were delighted to see Tins substituted and Wilkshire did not have the same impact when he came on. Tins has now had time, and it takes time to assess the team and who wants to play under him and he is now making changes. We are 7th and there is plenty of time for this season to turn into the one we have all been hoping it will be so for heavens sake give the guy a chance. Those who chose to criticise the board for lack of ambition really are living in some kind of fantasy world where money grows on trees - not every club has an Abramovich and our club would be in a lot worse state without the money that has been ploughed in by this board. Every time anyone thinks to critcise they should consider: a. how many shares do they own- there have been opportunities and the rights issue was hardly well supported. b. how much of their net worth is invested in the club I shall be listening late in the night here in Singapore and hoping that come Saturday night there might be some humble pie being eaten and that come the end of the season there will be a mountain of it for some of you to consume. ← Right with ya megansdad. I'll even sprinkle a bit sugar on top to help em eat it all up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatWill Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Those who chose to criticise the board for lack of ambition really are living in some kind of fantasy world where money grows on trees - not every club has an Abramovich and our club would be in a lot worse state without the money that has been ploughed in by this board. Every time anyone thinks to critcise they should consider: a. how many shares do they own- there have been opportunities and the rights issue was hardly well supported. b. how much of their net worth is invested in the club ← Wait a minute, it costs money to go and watch football. Therefore I'd imagine that many posters on this forum do put A LOT of money into this club. No one person at Bristol City is bigger than the fans I'm afraid. We're funding BCFC more than the board comfortably - £100k every home game for starters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goodone Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Wait a minute, it costs money to go and watch football. Therefore I'd imagine that many posters on this forum do put A LOT of money into this club. No one person at Bristol City is bigger than the fans I'm afraid. We're funding BCFC more than the board comfortably - £100k every home game for starters! ← here here - When you got a manager who can not get his players playing for him surely there is a problem with his style of tactics and approach, cause the previous manager managed to get the respect ok??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megansdad Posted February 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Phatwill sorry but there's a huge difference between 400 quid a season out of income and investing a substantial part of all you have managed to save over many years in the club. For the 400 you spen you are entertained- you could chose to spend it on other forma of entertainment you do not invest in the club and risk your capital as the board have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Darko Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 didn't get him too far though did it. i think the whole of this season is just showing that certain footballers do not appreciate that there are millions of people who would love to do what they do for a living. In football there really should be no need for a manager to have to motivate the players, it should just happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAGILLA Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Phatwill sorry but there's a huge difference between 400 quid a season out of income and investing a substantial part of all you have managed to save over many years in the club. For the 400 you spen you are entertained- you could chose to spend it on other forma of entertainment you do not invest in the club and risk your capital as the board have done. ← Have you read the report in Four Four Two concerning the 100 wealthiest directors in club football? Four of ours were in there - Lansdown, Laycock, Gooch and Dawe - and between them they have a combined wealth of over £100 million! I don't think they're seriously 'risking their capital', do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimplyRed Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I can't speak for other fans, but certainly my beef is that * He took over a team that finished 3rd 2 seasons running * He accepted the post knowing that anything short of promotion was failure * He has fiddled and farted around with the team and the personnel * He seems to be tactically naive * He seems to lack the respect of the players * He seems to be lacking in motivational skills * He has been given a fair amount of money to improve the team but most of those he brought in struggle to get selected * His management team seems to lack the coaching ability of the calibre of Frank Barlow If you view the above in the light of * The team didn't need much tweaking * Wilson left because he was told there would be no money available * The performances have left a lot to be desired * We have lost several young home-grown players cheaply It's not difficult to see why there has been so much acrimony over the past few months, both directed at Tinnion himself and the board - both of whom should shoulder some blame. So far, I have seen nothing to lead me to believe our performances in the final third of the season is going to be any different than the first two thirds. If you ignore our 2 best performances and our 2 worst performances, the remainder is humdrum and dull and there has been no visible improvement since the beginning of the season. We are still inconsistent, liable to concede at set pieces and struggle to kill off games we dominate. It was like this against Torquay and it was still like it against Chesterfield. Where is the improvement that can give us some hope that things will get better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megansdad Posted February 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Have you read the report in Four Four Two concerning the 100 wealthiest directors in club football? Four of ours were in there - Lansdown, Laycock, Gooch and Dawe - and between them they have a combined wealth of over £100 million! I don't think they're seriously 'risking their capital', do you? ← They are risking the capital they have chosen to invest in the club, while much of their wealth will be tied up in their companies. So yes they certainly are risking their capital and without them so doing we would be in a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAGILLA Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 They are risking the capital they have chosen to invest in the club, while much of their wealth will be tied up in their companies. So yes they certainly are risking their capital and without them so doing we would be in a mess. ← Is that the 'capital' that takes the form of loans to Bristol City Football Club, loans which are being charged interest at a rate slighlty higher than those offered by High Street banks and loans which the Directors fully intend to be repaid in full? (Will the fans be getting back the money they 'invest' in the club? I thought the Directors were fans as well - that's what they keep telling us?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimplyRed Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 They are risking the capital they have chosen to invest in the club, while much of their wealth will be tied up in their companies. So yes they certainly are risking their capital and without them so doing we would be in a mess. ← I think the key word here is 'chosen'. They have 'chosen' to invest in a football club. For the majority of football directors, they don't do it for their love of the club, they're in it for the money. They're businessmen. If they insist it's for the love of the club, then it must be viewed as a hobby and they should be prepared to spend (and lose) the money - they can't have it both ways. Either way, it does not make them immune from criticism if it is considered that they are making a pigs ear out of running the club. Like players and managers, nobody is bigger than the club. The fans will be here before they arrive and they'lll be here after they go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC_Dan Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 The team would have fallen apart with or without Wilson. It had run its course, it had failed. The young players had gone as far as they could with City, and would either leave or sink into mediocrity. Wilson was incapable of fighting the comfy club culture, which is why it got as bad as it did. Someone had to take action. I'd have preferred someone with more authority than Tinnion, but he's not afraid to take the job on at least. He has my support. Anyone clutching to the "year on year improvement" and "3rd 2 years running" under Wilson is failing to see how much of an underachievement it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
port marine red Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Well said Simply Red. The man has to go. NOW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatWill Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 The team would have fallen apart with or without Wilson. How do you know that? It had run its course, it had failed. Yes, and its good to see we've moved forward from that 'failure' isn't it? The young players had gone as far as they could with City, and would either leave or sink into mediocrity. Really? How many of our youngsters improved under Wilson? Wilson was incapable of fighting the comfy club culture, which is why it got as bad as it did. As bad as what? Since the start of this season till now you mean? It's hardly suprising that we have a comfy club culture when the chairman fails to recognise smoking and drinking as being detrimental to our playing staff! Someone had to take action. I'd have preferred someone with more authority than Tinnion, but he's not afraid to take the job on at least. No, and at the start of the season he was expected to improve on what Wilson had achieved at City - DOH. Anyone clutching to the "year on year improvement" and "3rd 2 years running" under Wilson is failing to see how much of an underachievement it was. Underachievement? What exactly have we been doing this season, have you been to see us play this season? Presumably you are referring to underachievement because you think we have a wonderfully talented squad capable of walking this division? Oh, and we get big crowds? Time to wake up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payney Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Indeed, as 'business-men' the very reason they plough their CAPITAL into OUR club is so they can receive a RETURN and thus CAPITAL GROWTH. The influx of cash from the board has little to do with their passion and loyalty for our club (as I know for a fact that one such member of the Top 100 directors) swears his allegiance to one of the Premierships North London Clubs, but everything to do with making a substantial return on their outlay. Any business person looking to invest in a football club would have BCFC high on their list on potentia investments due to the surrounding catchment area, the average crowd attendances and thus the scope for growth in future years. So please don't talk to me about the board "loving this club" because the reason they INVEST money into this club is because they know that sooner or later the good times will return, BCFC will get promoted and their investment will return a rather handsome profit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Slinky Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Is that the 'capital' that takes the form of loans to Bristol City Football Club, loans which are being charged interest at a rate slighlty higher than those offered by High Street banks and loans which the Directors fully intend to be repaid in full? (Will the fans be getting back the money they 'invest' in the club? I thought the Directors were fans as well - that's what they keep telling us?) ← So are you saying we could get a better deal by borrowing the money from a high street bank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC_Dan Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Really? How many of our youngsters improved under Wilson? ← I'm struggling to think of anyone who improved under Wilson. Murray perhaps. Young players came into the side, shone briefly, then settled into mediocrity. As bad as what? Since the start of this season till now you mean? It's hardly suprising that we have a comfy club culture when the chairman fails to recognise smoking and drinking as being detrimental to our playing staff! ← At least now we have a manager who does, unlike the last one. No, and at the start of the season he was expected to improve on what Wilson had achieved at City - DOH. ← Mismanaged expectations - the only real mistake made by Tinnion and Lansdown so far. Underachievement? What exactly have we been doing this season, have you been to see us play this season? Presumably you are referring to underachievement because you think we have a wonderfully talented squad capable of walking this division? Oh, and we get big crowds? Time to wake up. ← I've been to every home game this season and a lot of the time I am seeing a lack of effort and application from players who I know can do better. If the manager can't trust his "star" players then he needs to get rid of them. When things go wrong, we always blame the manager, but if the manager is controlled by the players, how can he succeed? It's time we stuck by a manager and changed the players instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spud55 Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Nobody invests in football hoping for a return unless they are either mad or investing in one of the few clubs in the country that ever make a profit. Very few board members of clubs have madea return on their investment. Did the Wolves chairman who ploughed well over 100 million quid of his own money in over the years get it back ? Did Jack get any of the 200 mill plus he ploughed into blackburn back ? if you want to make any money from football then you invest in Man yoo, apart from that you are not going to make any descent returns on your investment. People always harp on about how much our board are worth, and how they should put that in, well these people are either completely naieve or know nothing about business. Landsdown is worth roughly 35-40 million, now oddly enough that does not mean he has that money floating around, he probably has a tiny portion of that floating around, the rest is all tied up in investment's and businesses. Thats why you rarely see young (ish) businessman ploughing money into football clubs, because they are businessmen and know that until they are ready to sell up they will not have that type of money, and most know if they are worth that now and are good businessmen in time they can double if not more what they are worth and then look into ploughing serious money into something. Football is in general a great loss making business, yes the directors give money out as loans but they will only take that money back as and when they can, if it would cripple the club can you honestly say you believe that Steve L and co would call in the debt ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megansdad Posted February 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 and there's a huge queue of investors ready to put money into the club- where and who? I didn't claim that they were doing it purely for love- what I did claim which is irrefutable is that they have their money invested - like with any investment if it succeeds they will be rewarded but they are the ones risking their capital. As for all that was needed wqs to tweak the squad have you been watching hat happens to a number of clubs that fail in the play-offs- they go backwards rapidly as players deal with the disappointment of getting so close but not achieving. We have failed twice in the last two years and a reaction was inevitable. Still reading all the negative comments now is little differnet to reading the same comments a year ago. We have no god given right to success. Tins seems to be working hard and prepared to make tough decisions. He will get it right given the support and the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payney Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 An interesting discussion indeed. However, I think you will find is that the naive people are the ones who think the board are in this purely for the love of the club. Don't get me wrong, I hope that you are right, because that would be a refreshing change from the cutthroat world in which we live. However, I struggle to believe that they are happy not to make any profit out of the money they put into BCFC. Afterall, we have all agreed that they are successful business-men, and surely the very meaning of such would be people who make a profit above their intial capital outlay? One final point, could somebody enlighten me to who owns the Ashton Gate Football Stadium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Slinky Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 An interesting discussion indeed. However, I think you will find is that the naive people are the ones who think the board are in this purely for the love of the club. Don't get me wrong, I hope that you are right, because that would be a refreshing change from the cutthroat world in which we live. However, I struggle to believe that they are happy not to make any profit out of the money they put into BCFC. Afterall, we have all agreed that they are successful business-men, and surely the very meaning of such would be people who make a profit above their intial capital outlay? One final point, could somebody enlighten me to who owns the Ashton Gate Football Stadium? ← Extending that point. What are all the club's shareholders in it for? Couldn't they just have donated the money instead of buying shares in the hope of getting something back if they were true fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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