The Iranian President

[The Batman]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4529198.stm

http://www.channel4.com/news/content/news-...e.jsp?id=280235

Historian David Irvine is currently in prison on the Austrian - German boarder for writings about denying the holocaust. Will the same happen to the President of Iran???

Course it wont.

[dagest]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4529198.stm

http://www.channel4.com/news/content/news-...e.jsp?id=280235

Historian David Irvine is currently in prison on the Austrian - German boarder for writings about denying the holocaust. Will the same happen to the President of Iran???

Course it wont.

Well, considering that to get to him they'll have the blow the hell out of the country I think it's unlikely and morally unacceptable if they do.

The guy is a fruitcake though.

[Dorset_Cider]

Look........most rightminded persons of the human race know what the Jews went through.

If you don't believe then fair enough....... there is also the flat earth society.... they believe the earth is flat

Most of us have seen enough evidence to prove otherwise.

Enough said?

[The Batman]

basically i think the guy is a complete 7wun7, but my view aint going to get anywhere, but surely it's double standards if one can get arrested and another cant for saying the same thing??? I know that there is "evidence" to prove that the holocaust didn't happen and there are those who deny that it happened. But from what i've studied over the years, i think the evidence is overwhelming to prove that it did happen.

Still, never mind.

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

You're all missing the point

His initial comments suggested that if we are such a free society, how come we arrest people for daring to question such a widely held belief.

The press jumps on this, and accuses the chap of denying the holocaust. Now i think he's just winding people up, and fair play - it works.

If people are so bothered about mass murder on such a scale, I suggest you check out the Turkish massacare of Armenians after ww1. Turky has NEVER said sorry, and indeed, the armenians have never been compensated.

[scootered]

If people are so bothered about mass murder on such a scale, I suggest you check out the Turkish massacare of Armenians after ww1. Turky has NEVER said sorry, and indeed, the armenians have never been compensated.

I fail to see what bearing that has on this topic

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

One the one hand, countries and the media work themselves up over the moronic statement by the Iranian President, on the other they court a country that fails to atone for something just as bad.

This issue isn't over the holocaust, it is over double standards and interprtation

[dagest]

You're all missing the point

His initial comments suggested that if we are such a free society, how come we arrest people for daring to question such a widely held belief.

The press jumps on this, and accuses the chap of denying the holocaust. Now i think he's just winding people up, and fair play - it works.

If people are so bothered about mass murder on such a scale, I suggest you check out the Turkish massacare of Armenians after ww1. Turky has NEVER said sorry, and indeed, the armenians have never been compensated.

Interestingly, Turkey's leading novelist Orhan Pamuk is going on trial in Turkey just for mentioning the Armenian massacre. His novel Snow is an excellent read too if you're into books.

Pamuk story

I also recall reading lately that some guy who refused military service has been in prison for the last 4 years becasue of it. Nice people the Turkish govt.

[The Batman]

Interestingly, Turkey's leading novelist Orhan Pamuk is going on trial in Turkey just for mentioning the Armenian massacre. His novel Snow is an excellent read too if you're into books.

Pamuk story

I also recall reading lately that some guy who refused military service has been in prison for the last 4 years becasue of it. Nice people the Turkish govt.

dagest,

what is your view of Turkish involvement in the EU?? It's been discussed for years now, and i've mentioned it in other posts, just wondered what you view on it is. (if you would't mind)

Danakin

[dagest]

dagest,

what is your view of Turkish involvement in the EU?? It's been discussed for years now, and i've mentioned it in other posts, just wondered what you view on it is. (if you would't mind)

Danakin

In short, I haven't made my mind up. I suppose it depends on what you think the EU is for. In my rather cynical view I think the primary purpose of the EU is to make more money (normally more for those who already have enough). I know that may be viewed as rather simplistic, but that is the rasion d'etre of a capitlalist economy.

However, I must admit that if it brings Europeans closer together than I reluctantly support it. From my viewpoint though it has to help bring ordinary working Europeans together rather than gangster capitlalists who already carved up the generated wealth between them. Personally I feel more European than English anyway. As you will have recognized from your studies the history of England/Britain is pretty senseless unless you read it in a European (and later world) context.

Regarding Turkey, I don't think the EU will be too bothered about Turkey's human rights problems. It's all ultimately about searching out the cheapest labour costs isn't it? Even though, recent events with agricultural subsidies for French farmers seems to contradict this. If you also bare in mind that our erstwhile enemy Gaddafi is now suddenly our friend, it suggests that morality doesn't come near the top of our govt's. concerns. I must admit I don't like the Turkish govt., but I can understand why it is like it is. I think this is because it has many problems with divisions and isn't really an integrated state at all. Pamuk's novel is all about the divisions in contemporary Turkish society. Can a non-European country join the EU anyway? Doesn't that mean we have to change its name or even more simply just accept that it's a trading block and nothing else?

I'm willing to be educated on this as it isn't something I've read a great deal about. What do you think?

[bucksred]

In short, I haven't made my mind up. I suppose it depends on what you think the EU is for. In my rather cynical view I think the primary purpose of the EU is to make more money (normally more for those who already have enough). I know that may be viewed as rather simplistic, but that is the rasion d'etre of a capitlalist economy.

However, I must admit that if it brings Europeans closer together than I reluctantly support it. From my viewpoint though it has to help bring ordinary working Europeans together rather than gangster capitlalists who already carved up the generated wealth between them. Personally I feel more European than English anyway. As you will have recognized from your studies the history of England/Britain is pretty senseless unless you read it in a European (and later world) context.

Regarding Turkey, I don't think the EU will be too bothered about Turkey's human rights problems. It's all ultimately about searching out the cheapest labour costs isn't it? Even though, recent events with agricultural subsidies for French farmers seems to contradict this. If you also bare in mind that our erstwhile enemy Gaddafi is now suddenly our friend, it suggests that morality doesn't come near the top of our govt's. concerns. I must admit I don't like the Turkish govt., but I can understand why it is like it is. I think this is because it has many problems with divisions and isn't really an integrated state at all. Pamuk's novel is all about the divisions in contemporary Turkish society. Can a non-European country join the EU anyway? Doesn't that mean we have to change its name or even more simply just accept that it's a trading block and nothing else?

I'm willing to be educated on this as it isn't something I've read a great deal about. What do you think?

Most EU countries will never accept Turkeys entry, partly historical reason (Austria, Hungary, Slovenia), partly racial (Germany,Holland, Denmark, and Poland), partly fear of Islam, (Most countries)

Personally I reckon the EU is a busted flush. I do not think European unity is possible, especially as France in particular, extracts the urine.

Sad, bur regrettably true, as europe, united and strong is a force for good in our rotten world, not as a counterbalance to the USA, as thats incredibly counterproductive.

[The Batman]

Most EU countries will never accept Turkeys entry, partly historical reason (Austria, Hungary, Slovenia), partly racial (Germany,Holland, Denmark, and Poland), partly fear of Islam, (Most countries)

Personally I reckon the EU is a busted flush. I do not think European unity is possible, especially as France in particular, extracts the urine.

Sad, bur regrettably true, as europe, united and strong is a force for good in our rotten world, not as a counterbalance to the USA, as thats incredibly counterproductive.

wouldn't you think that fear of islam and partly racial are the same thing??

i did a module on the European Union last year and it focused on their human rights record, their islamic laws, geographical reason and of course their history. I am not a big fan of Turkish involvement, but i'd like to see them as members of the EU just to see how they act.

[bristolborn_and_red]

wouldn't you think that fear of islam and partly racial are the same thing??

i did a module on the European Union last year and it focused on their human rights record, their islamic laws, geographical reason and of course their history. I am not a big fan of Turkish involvement, but i'd like to see them as members of the EU just to see how they act.

Why is it europeans are turning a blind eye to the islamification of europe. We are now witnessing the effects of multi-culturalism in the form of riots, bombings and downright sedition from the muslims. Hindus and Sikhs come from exactly the same backgrounds as the muslims yet they fully integrate. The difference being that islam is political as well as being religious. It has an agenda.

To admit Turkey into the EU would be the death nail into British and European culture. Millions of muslims would flood into Europe and their voice would get ever louder and louder and if not heard, we will suffer the consequences.

This country will not admit to the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians. They have an abysmal human rights record that carries on til this day and yet you would like to see them in the EU just to see how they act.

WTF are you on about? If you want to experiment then experiment with you own life but "please" not mine.

[dagest]

Why is it europeans are turning a blind eye to the islamification of europe. We are now witnessing the effects of multi-culturalism in the form of riots, bombings and downright sedition from the muslims. Hindus and Sikhs come from exactly the same backgrounds as the muslims yet they fully integrate. The difference being that islam is political as well as being religious. It has an agenda.

To admit Turkey into the EU would be the death nail into British and European culture. Millions of muslims would flood into Europe and their voice would get ever louder and louder and if not heard, we will suffer the consequences.

This country will not admit to the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians. They have an abysmal human rights record that carries on til this day and yet you would like to see them in the EU just to see how they act.

WTF are you on about? If you want to experiment then experiment with you own life but "please" not mine.

That's a bit over the top isn't it? Are you saying multi-culturalism results always results in social dissent? Social dissent has a long history in this country and multi-culturaliosm isn't a unique factor. Aren't you tarring all Muslims with the same brush? Just because a few have an intolerant interpretation of the Koran it doesn't mean they all have. Have Sikhs and Hindus assimilated peacefully? I seem to remember some Sikhs rioting in Birmingham because of some play. Is Islam really anymore political than Christianity? Or is it simply a case of religion/faith being politicised? Isn't the existence of Israel politicised Judaism? What is your standpoint? Do you feel the same about all proselytizing religions?

[bristolborn_and_red]

That's a bit over the top isn't it? Are you saying multi-culturalism results always results in social dissent? Social dissent has a long history in this country and multi-culturaliosm isn't a unique factor. Aren't you tarring all Muslims with the same brush? Just because a few have an intolerant interpretation of the Koran it doesn't mean they all have. Have Sikhs and Hindus assimilated peacefully? I seem to remember some Sikhs rioting in Birmingham because of some play. Is Islam really anymore political than Christianity? Or is it simply a case of religion/faith being politicised? Isn't the existence of Israel politicised Judaism? What is your standpoint? Do you feel the same about all proselytizing religions?

I don't think it is. I believe multi-culturalism would have been a success if it wasn't for islam. They cannot integrate. It is in their holy books not to befriend the infidel. The world, according to the muslims, is divided into two camps. Dar al Islam(house of islam) and Dar al Harb(house of war). It is a muslims duty to bring dar al harb into dar al islam be it by jihad (holy war) or Dawa (invitation). If Dawa is refused or ignored then jihad will follow. It is to reign supreme over the world and govern using sharia law. This indeed makes it more political than judaism, christianity, hinduism, etc. These religions don't have this agenda.

You say that i'm tarring all muslims with the same brush just because a few have an intolerant interpretation of the quran. Well firstly, that intolerant interpretation of the quran is the correct interpretation as agreed by the sunni schools of thought and the Wahhabi/salifi brand of islam (as practiced by Bin Laden) is being pushed in the mosques of Europe and America (80% of which are sponsered by Saudi money).

This is really dangerous. You say it is only a few. How do you know this? There are estimates that put the fundamentalists at between 10 and 15% of the worldwide muslim population. Well there's 150 million for you. Personally, i'd rather believe ex-muslim and author Ibn Warriq who puts the figure at between 85 and 90% and this would account for the silence from the "moderate majority" whenever there is a terrorist atrocity. Yes i do tar with the same brush because i do not know which muslim could blow me away or which one is a moderate or if that moderate is becoming more fundamental in his beliefs and could possibly blow me away in the future. Yet the EU is proposing to let ever more muslims into Europe. Why? When these people have an agenda to rule wherever they reside. I believe we have to tar with the same brush because its the not knowing that could be our downfall.

You touched on the existence of Israel. Well i don't believe Zionism is politicised judaism. Sure it was a political movement but nothing inscribed in their religious texts and certainly does not involve being supreme over the world (unless you wanna believe rubbish like "the protocols of the elders of zion").

Finally, about the sikhs and that play in Birmingham. Yes there were demonstrations and yes there were scuffles and some arrests. A riot is was not. Put that into contrast with the quran flushing incedent and the Miss World contest in Nigeria. Major rioting and many deaths. The difference being Islam.

[bristolborn_and_red]

This is for Dagest especially although please feel free to reply to my previous post. This article shows what i have already learned about islam over the years are some of the reasons i believe it is a threat today. It is also worded better than anything i could come up with ( not learned enough).

Islamic censorship

[bucksred]

BB &B, is right, the Islamic faith has turned into a bigioted, hatred filled system, which is more than likely the cworlds biggest threat.

Examples: Bin Ladens maniacs and their willing disciples in every country.

Why does the Muslim community in this country need its own parliament? And somehow I canrt see it being a democratic organization.

Why have thew liberal Dutch, and Danish turned anti immigrant, or for that matter Germany & Sweden, or indeed this country, which is the finest example of racial tolerance on the planet (Pre land grab Zimbabwe was but thats well gone now.

Why is the formerly local organization in the Western Cape PAGAD (Parents Against gangsterism & Drugs, NOW an extremist organization, promoting anti American/Jewish/British/Westewrn hatred in that order?

Why do Black Police in SA really hand out beatings to Muslims, and not the former white opressors?

Why did Zim Police burn down a mosque in Harare, but not churches?

Why in a country where anti Jewish statements earn you a good time in chokey are two or three Muslim clerics being kicked out a week? Germany in case youre wondering.

Why did that Muslim who murdered the Film Director say he didnt recognise Dutch law or respect the Dutch?

Why did that British born and bred Muslim spew his hatred out in his pre murdering speech, about being all of our fault?

Why did German tourists get murdered in Tunisia? among many in many countries- Brits in Egypt, israelis in Kenya..not to mention Africans murdered in the embassy bombings there

Why is it Muslims did most of the rioting in France?

Why is the worst atrocity in the long and bitter Chechen war involve mass murder of children. anyone who deludes himself that it was going to turn out any other way, is particularly stupid.

Why did Tanzania kick out Arabs from Zanzibar?

Why was there a riot in Nigeria when the miss world competition here?

Why did Indonsian troops massacre Christian Timorese?

Why are Christians in Pakistan treated so woefully?

Why is Islam unique in thinking everyone is picking on them?

Why on earth are Muslim women forced to waer the hijab, and its worse relation the burka, even in places like South Africa, Mozambique & Zimbabwe?

These people have NOT assimilatedd in any country they have emigrated to from Africa, Europe to australiasia.

Some things which would be banned under a wahabi definition of the law.

Football.

All forms of Music as we know it.

Choosing your wife, YOURSELF.

Women dressing how they WANT to dress, go out when THEY want to UNACCOMPANIED if they choose. Driving a car or motorcycle.

Virtually any book ever wrtiiten from the Bible, through to George Orwell, and as for stuff like FHM, Kerrang, any of the rave stuff.

Birth control on this over crowded planet.

Religious tolerance.

holidays on the beach.

Having a single beer/wine/shot.

Thats the easy ones. doubtless thousands of others exist. I doubt very much the prophet Mahommed has this in mind when he founded Islam, but its a reality

There are no shining lights of Islamic democracy, although Turkey, Morrocco are nearly that way. Why? because the extreme forms of Islam are not tolerated. Lybia, Iraq, Syria & Egypt also take strong action (Well did in Iraqs case Saddam took ruthless action) Algerias military, and Pakistan too, have attempted to deal with it.

And to Bosnias eternal credit they have not sucubed to the extremism, despite having more than fair cause to

and one last thought: Who were the last people to take slaves from Africa, only stopped late in the 19th century, by the big powers?

That'd be Arabs then. Whose contemptous nickname of the non muslim black africans kaffour (I think its spelld) meaning unbeleiver, found its way into Afrikaans "Kaffir" as they didnt know what it meant.

[The Batman]

Why is it europeans are turning a blind eye to the islamification of europe. We are now witnessing the effects of multi-culturalism in the form of riots, bombings and downright sedition from the muslims. Hindus and Sikhs come from exactly the same backgrounds as the muslims yet they fully integrate. The difference being that islam is political as well as being religious. It has an agenda.

To admit Turkey into the EU would be the death nail into British and European culture. Millions of muslims would flood into Europe and their voice would get ever louder and louder and if not heard, we will suffer the consequences.

This country will not admit to the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians. They have an abysmal human rights record that carries on til this day and yet you would like to see them in the EU just to see how they act.

WTF are you on about? If you want to experiment then experiment with you own life but "please" not mine.

where do i say that i'd experiment, i said that i was against the turkish involvement, however, we could at least see how they'd act if they were, it don't mean that they would become members, it aint up to me now is it.

[CiderHider]

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will be assassinated within 12 months, Vile little man.

[The Batman]

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will be assassinated within 12 months, Vile little man.

my heart bleeds for him

[bucksred]

my heart bleeds for him

Not mine........after bloody nukes now as well, WONDERFUL.

[bristolborn_and_red]

where do i say that i'd experiment, i said that i was against the turkish involvement, however, we could at least see how they'd act if they were, it don't mean that they would become members, it aint up to me now is it.

You said you would like to see Turkey as members of the EU just to see how they would act. Well if thats not experimenting, I don't know what is.

[The Batman]

You said you would like to see Turkey as members of the EU just to see how they would act. Well if thats not experimenting, I don't know what is.

ok, blonde moment earlier on for me, i see what you are getting at. I just worded my previous post wrongly.

What i was trying to get at was to see how Turkey would act under membership of the EU without actually being a member, if you catch my drift?? So the EUlegislation would be put into their law for a certain period of time, and,see if their Human rights record would improve or any other stuff.

Mind you, i don't want them in Europe, yet it aint up to us.

It wouldn't surprise me if you didn't understand a word of this as i am extremely hungover