More From The Mad Mullah's

[bristolborn_and_red]

Remember muslim apologists. These girls could be your granddaughters in years to come.

17 yr old sentenced to death

[solo1bc]

Remember muslim apologists. These girls could be your granddaughters in years to come.

17 yr old sentenced to death

Don't you mean 'Iranian' apologists or something?!

Please try not to tar 1.2 billion people with the same brush as these sick people who are twisting the religion practically beyond all recognition. I'm pretty darn sure that 95% of Iranians will be outraged by this story as well so although I agree with what I think your trying to say (that this is an outrage) I'm pretty offended with how your trying to say it.

It's barbaric for sure but don't forget that America only stopped executing people who were mentally retarded 3 years ago and are still executing people who committed crime when they were as young as 15!

That's pretty barbaric too wouldn't you say?

[scootered]

Are females equal in the muslim world?

[bristolborn_and_red]

Don't you mean 'Iranian' apologists or something?!

Please try not to tar 1.2 billion people with the same brush as these sick people who are twisting the religion practically beyond all recognition. I'm pretty darn sure that 95% of Iranians will be outraged by this story as well so although I agree with what I think your trying to say (that this is an outrage) I'm pretty offended with how your trying to say it.

It's barbaric for sure but don't forget that America only stopped executing people who were mentally retarded 3 years ago and are still executing people who committed crime when they were as young as 15!

That's pretty barbaric too wouldn't you say?

No i definately mean muslim Apologists. The ummah comes first.

I don't know how the USA handles things but if they were executing mentally retarded people then as you say they have stopped (have you any links?). Never right in the first place though.

I Believe 1st degree murder is the only capital offence in the USA and if a 15 year old took another persons life in cold blood then he should suffer the consequences. Surely a 15 year old knows the difference from right and wrong?

However, your comparisons are ludicrous beyond belief. We are talking about a victim of attempted rape not someone who has commited murder. Well maybe you could mull over your comparisons when she is dangling from a 9 inch thick rope!

For the record, I don't believe in capital punishment full stop.

Are females equal in the muslim world?

No they aint Scoot.

In fact, far from it.

PS Can i have my signature back?

[solo1bc]

No i definately mean muslim Apologists. The ummah comes first.

I don't know how the USA handles things but if they were executing mentally retarded people then as you say they have stopped (have you any links?). Never right in the first place though.

To be honest I've been down this road on this forum too many times. If you cannot diferentiate between barbaric people who happen to be muslims and all muslims in general (1.2 billion people!) then it's a waste of my time to try and convince you.

Yes the USA have stopped executing retarded people. In the 1970's? No. In the 1990's! No. In 2002!!

My point was that there are plenty of non-muslim countries that have barbaric and antiquated punishment laws & traditions.

I will grant you that a lot of muslim countries have effed up laws in this regards but that is because they are 'backwards' countries anyway (Saudi, Afghanistan, Yemen etc.) and has nothing to do with the fact that they are 'muslim'

I Believe 1st degree murder is the only capital offence in the USA and if a 15 year old took another persons life in cold blood then he should suffer the consequences. Surely a 15 year old knows the difference from right and wrong?

So a fifteen year old kid who may have a basic understanding of right and wrong deserves the same punishment as a fully grown and responsible adult?

Complete Nonsense.

However, your comparisons are ludicrous beyond belief. We are talking about a victim of attempted rape not someone who has commited murder. Well maybe you could mull over your comparisons when she is dangling from a 9 inch thick rope!

I wasn't making a comparison? Why would I 'mull over' anything while this poor girl suffers? I'm as outraged as you!

My point was that you cannot tar people with the same brush. Trust me, I live amongst them (muslims & Iranians!) and they will be as outraged as you or I about this story. The only ones who won't be are the same kind of people who smashed up pediatricians houses thinking they were paedophiles in the UK. Basically effin idiots!

Like I said, I've got no problem with your sentiments but you can't generalise in the way that you have.

For the record, I don't believe in capital punishment full stop.

No they aint Scoot.

In fact, far from it.

PS Can i have my signature back?

In response to Scoots question then it's a bit of a tricky one. In some parts of the muslim world then women certainly are equal. Try telling a Lebanese or Jordanian woman what she can & can't do and you'll find out soon enough! The places where women are treated badly are primarily places where women are treated badly on a cultural level anyway and Islam is used as a shield or tool to continue that.

It's a bit or a paradox really because if you read the Koran properly then woman are actually to be revered above men but in backwards places like Saudi that is interpreted to mean they should be 'protected' to the point of oppression.

Like I said before it's generally a case of patriarchal societies using Islam as a way to further there cultural traditions. The bedouin arabs for example have been treating women in this way since way before Islam even existed but unfortunately the words Arab & Muslim mean the same thing to people in the west.

[bristolborn_and_red]

To be honest I've been down this road on this forum too many times. If you cannot diferentiate between barbaric people who happen to be muslims and all muslims in general (1.2 billion people!) then it's a waste of my time to try and convince you.

Yes the USA have stopped executing retarded people. In the 1970's? No. In the 1990's! No. In 2002!!

My point was that there are plenty of non-muslim countries that have barbaric and antiquated punishment laws & traditions.

I will grant you that a lot of muslim countries have effed up laws in this regards but that is because they are 'backwards' countries anyway (Saudi, Afghanistan, Yemen etc.) and has nothing to do with the fact that they are 'muslim'

So a fifteen year old kid who may have a basic understanding of right and wrong deserves the same punishment as a fully grown and responsible adult?

Complete Nonsense.

I wasn't making a comparison? Why would I 'mull over' anything while this poor girl suffers? I'm as outraged as you!

My point was that you cannot tar people with the same brush. Trust me, I live amongst them (muslims & Iranians!) and they will be as outraged as you or I about this story. The only ones who won't be are the same kind of people who smashed up pediatricians houses thinking they were paedophiles in the UK. Basically effin idiots!

Like I said, I've got no problem with your sentiments but you can't generalise in the way that you have.

In response to Scoots question then it's a bit of a tricky one. In some parts of the muslim world then women certainly are equal. Try telling a Lebanese or Jordanian woman what she can & can't do and you'll find out soon enough! The places where women are treated badly are primarily places where women are treated badly on a cultural level anyway and Islam is used as a shield or tool to continue that.

It's a bit or a paradox really because if you read the Koran properly then woman are actually to be revered above men but in backwards places like Saudi that is interpreted to mean they should be 'protected' to the point of oppression.

Like I said before it's generally a case of patriarchal societies using Islam as a way to further there cultural traditions. The bedouin arabs for example have been treating women in this way since way before Islam even existed but unfortunately the words Arab & Muslim mean the same thing to people in the west.

First of all, I don't differentiate between muslims. I'm sure there are plenty of muslims who are good people. The problem is how can one tell who is good and who is bad unless they're broadcasting it? An ideology like Islam is totalitarian to its core. Islam means submission. So how does one tell who is totally submitting to someone who is just going through the motions?

Like i said about the retards. There is no way i would condone that but could you provide the links?

Yes, there are plenty of non-muslim countries that have barbaric laws but they are generally all different. For instance, USA is Christian, Thailand is buddhist, China is atheist. One thing that unites all the muslim countries is the sharia. It is part of the ideology. For instance, the UAE is regarded as the most liberated of muslim states but it still has "death by stoning" on its statute books for the "crime" of adultery. I'll concede that they have yet to carry out this punishment. The fact that it is still there is abhorrent.

At fifteen years old, there is no basic understanding of right and wrong when killing someone. You just know right from wrong. Its not basic, it's fundamental. At fifteen years old, you know it is wrong. So for me, if you commit the crime of murder then you serve life and i mean life. By the way, the age for criminal accountability in the UK is 10.

If the people you live amoungst are as outraged as you say then i'm sure we will see plenty of protest marches in Tehran, Ridayh, Damascus, Cairo, Dubai, Etc. I mean there were plenty of protests, even riots, at the qu'ran flushing incident so surely a life of a young girl will provoke more outrage?

In ALL of the muslim world, women are NOT equal. It is in the qu'ran. What you are spouting is just nonsense. The sharia defines how women are treated. Some societies treat them better than others but overall the majority of muslim women are downtrodden subjected to honour killings, female genital mutilation and 2nd class status in points of law. If its a cultural thing then why does it span from west Africa to Pakistan and Bangladesh in the east? You touched on Jordanian women. Here is a little link for you.

Revered Jordanian women

[solo1bc]

First of all, I don't differentiate between muslims. I'm sure there are plenty of muslims who are good people. The problem is how can one tell who is good and who is bad unless they're broadcasting it? An ideology like Islam is totalitarian to its core. Islam means submission. So how does one tell who is totally submitting to someone who is just going through the motions?

Ah good, so you don't mind if someone of a different nationality calls you a racist, imperialistic, bigoted warmonger then? After all isn't that what white Europeans/westerners are most famous for and what the worst parts of our society are still doing today? Granted we are more subtle nowadays but we still insist that our way of life is the best way and do out utmost to force that way of life on other cultures. Ask any African or Central Asian about Free Trade and how they feel about it.

Islam actually means 'Submission to God' and if you read the Koran it is primarily a peaceful religion (except for the stuff about infidels!).

If you read the bible equally closely though you'll find that it isn't too tolerant either! I'm apparently going to be tortured in hell for eternity because I haven't a accepted the holy trinity to my heart. In fact, one single second of 'doubt' condemns me to hell!

I could be a two year old retarded child with no concept of the god or the holy ghost but I'd still be going to hell if the bible is truly the 'word of god'

Who said the following?

"Those enimies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me"

Was it Mohammed? Nope. In fact it was Jesus! (Luke 19:27)

Everyone knows a little about the Spanish Inquisition I take it. The inquisition for example was just an expression of the bible in the same way that these idiots in Iran are living by an expression of the Koran. Granted there is a few hundred years difference but if you remember I did say that these countries were a 'backwards'

To be honest if you want to consider religious fanatics then do some research on the Christian Right in America. Equally as dangerous and scary in my opinion. They are more than happy with the US foreign policy as the closer Armegeddon get's, the closer Judgement Day comes where they all ascend to heaven and the rest of us go to Hell! 22% of Americans believe that Jesus is coming back in THEIR lifetime and according to the bible he will only come back during Armegeddon or Global Conflict!

I can't think of something as catchy as 'Mad Mullahs' for them though so we'll just leave it I guess!

Like i said about the retards. There is no way i would condone that but could you provide the links?

It's just a simple search on Google mate but here you go

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/mental_retardation.html

http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/extra/deathrow051501.htm

Yes, there are plenty of non-muslim countries that have barbaric laws but they are generally all different. For instance, USA is Christian, Thailand is buddhist, China is atheist. One thing that unites all the muslim countries is the sharia. It is part of the ideology. For instance, the UAE is regarded as the most liberated of muslim states but it still has "death by stoning" on its statute books for the "crime" of adultery. I'll concede that they have yet to carry out this punishment. The fact that it is still there is abhorrent.

It's a fair comment mate but you should note that almost all of these muslim countries are geographically close to each other and are in strongly patriarchal and tribal soceities. Is death by stoning more abhorrent than death by the electric chair? Messier for sure but by being less 'clinical' you could suggest their is more 'humanity' (the worst kind!) in that than the electric chair.

Anyway, I should point out that whenever I get into one of these debates I seem to end up down a road of defending the muslim religion. I need to make something very clear here... I am NOT in support of ANY religion. I despise them all equally! I believe that religion is largely responsible for the state of the world today and would love to see an end to all religions (with the exception of buddhism I guess!)

However! I do find it offensive when people generalise and use the words muslim as synonimous with 'fanatic, fundamentalist or in the word of Ricky Gervais 'mentalist'! when as you've said so yourself the majority of muslims are in fact 'good people'

At fifteen years old, there is no basic understanding of right and wrong when killing someone. You just know right from wrong. Its not basic, it's fundamental. At fifteen years old, you know it is wrong. So for me, if you commit the crime of murder then you serve life and i mean life. By the way, the age for criminal accountability in the UK is 10.

I didn't know that about the age of accountability in the UK. To me that is a disgrace too. How can a 10 year old understand the consequences of their actions in the same way as an adult? I don't understand that and as for a 15 year old then I think similar applies. Knowledge that murder is 'wrong' sure but you can't tell me that you had the same concept of life and death at the age of 15 that you have now? Some people will but not all IMO.

And anyway, I was talking about the death penalty and not life imprisonment. I don't actually think life is fair either and would prefer to talk about treatment or rehabilitation of a 10 year old but hey, I'm a crazy liberal apologist right?!

If the people you live amoungst are as outraged as you say then i'm sure we will see plenty of protest marches in Tehran, Ridayh, Damascus, Cairo, Dubai, Etc. I mean there were plenty of protests, even riots, at the qu'ran flushing incident so surely a life of a young girl will provoke more outrage?

Yeah, just like the Paedophile mess in the UK? It's the idiots who get all excited and protest 9 times out of 10 so it's the idiots who will be upset about the flushing incident or who went around smashing up Pediatricians houses back home! Unfortunately in the modern world it takes one hell of a lot to get rational people out in the streets and alternatevly just the smallest thing for the sheep like followers to jump around and make a fuss. Not sure if that's human nature or a snapshot of modern life but I'd suggest thats a seperate arguement anyway.

In ALL of the muslim world, women are NOT equal. It is in the qu'ran. What you are spouting is just nonsense. The sharia defines how women are treated. Some societies treat them better than others but overall the majority of muslim women are downtrodden subjected to honour killings, female genital mutilation and 2nd class status in points of law. If its a cultural thing then why does it span from west Africa to Pakistan and Bangladesh in the east? You touched on Jordanian women. Here is a little link for you.

Revered Jordanian women

I don't remember saying anything even close to ALL of the muslim world so I don't know where you got that from? What I said was that in 'certain parts of' the muslim world then women are equal (ish!). Maybe not officially in all cases but trust me mate, I'm married to one and the younger generations won't go in for any of this downtroden stuff your talking about. As for female circumcision then don't the Jews 'mutilate' male genitalia too?

Sure there are plenty of cases of things such as honour killings happening but IMO it's just a case of cultural traditions and has nothing to do with 'islam' per se. At least no more than a modern Christian would say the Inquisition or bombing an abortion clinic has anything to do with Christianity.

I could be wrong about the timeframes but I'm sure that if a man had knocked his wife or kids around in the UK around 50-60 years ago then 'eductated' people would have frowned upon it but not much else would have been done. It's the same thing in the east. You think that a father or brother will get respect for an honour killing? Maybe amongst other backwards individuals in a remote pakistani village but amongst the educated and enlighted population, no way!

When was the 'rule of thumb' outlawed in the UK out of interest? We were also caning (whipping!) kids in school what, 30 odd years ago as well. I'm not saying there the same thing but it's an example of an outdated 'tradition' that we have evolved from. Unfortunately a lot of the 'muslim' world has yet to evolve from similar practices.

Anyway, I strongly disagree with the way women are treated in the Arab world in general and definately Islam is a shield that is used to further that so we're in agreement on this point.

I checked your link and it does back up your point. However, what is written in law often isn't how 'real life' runs and as for the common sense of Politicians then don't get me started! :Crazy:

[bad_shrek]

you did say

Try telling a Lebanese or Jordanian woman what she can & can't do and you'll find out soon enough

and that link is from jordan!

[solo1bc]

you did say

and that link is from jordan!

And your point is?

Read all the posts before you reply saghead.

Oh, and ###### off back to your own forum too.

[bristolborn_and_red]

Ah good, so you don't mind if someone of a different nationality calls you a racist, imperialistic, bigoted warmonger then? After all isn't that what white Europeans/westerners are most famous for and what the worst parts of our society are still doing today? Granted we are more subtle nowadays but we still insist that our way of life is the best way and do out utmost to force that way of life on other cultures. Ask any African or Central Asian about Free Trade and how they feel about it.

Islam actually means 'Submission to God' and if you read the Koran it is primarily a peaceful religion (except for the stuff about infidels!).

If you read the bible equally closely though you'll find that it isn't too tolerant either! I'm apparently going to be tortured in hell for eternity because I haven't a accepted the holy trinity to my heart. In fact, one single second of 'doubt' condemns me to hell!

I could be a two year old retarded child with no concept of the god or the holy ghost but I'd still be going to hell if the bible is truly the 'word of god'

Who said the following?

"Those enimies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me"

Was it Mohammed? Nope. In fact it was Jesus! (Luke 19:27)

Everyone knows a little about the Spanish Inquisition I take it. The inquisition for example was just an expression of the bible in the same way that these idiots in Iran are living by an expression of the Koran. Granted there is a few hundred years difference but if you remember I did say that these countries were a 'backwards'

To be honest if you want to consider religious fanatics then do some research on the Christian Right in America. Equally as dangerous and scary in my opinion. They are more than happy with the US foreign policy as the closer Armegeddon get's, the closer Judgement Day comes where they all ascend to heaven and the rest of us go to Hell! 22% of Americans believe that Jesus is coming back in THEIR lifetime and according to the bible he will only come back during Armegeddon or Global Conflict!

I can't think of something as catchy as 'Mad Mullahs' for them though so we'll just leave it I guess!

It's just a simple search on Google mate but here you go

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/mental_retardation.html

http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/extra/deathrow051501.htm

It's a fair comment mate but you should note that almost all of these muslim countries are geographically close to each other and are in strongly patriarchal and tribal soceities. Is death by stoning more abhorrent than death by the electric chair? Messier for sure but by being less 'clinical' you could suggest their is more 'humanity' (the worst kind!) in that than the electric chair.

Anyway, I should point out that whenever I get into one of these debates I seem to end up down a road of defending the muslim religion. I need to make something very clear here... I am NOT in support of ANY religion. I despise them all equally! I believe that religion is largely responsible for the state of the world today and would love to see an end to all religions (with the exception of buddhism I guess!)

However! I do find it offensive when people generalise and use the words muslim as synonimous with 'fanatic, fundamentalist or in the word of Ricky Gervais 'mentalist'! when as you've said so yourself the majority of muslims are in fact 'good people'

I didn't know that about the age of accountability in the UK. To me that is a disgrace too. How can a 10 year old understand the consequences of their actions in the same way as an adult? I don't understand that and as for a 15 year old then I think similar applies. Knowledge that murder is 'wrong' sure but you can't tell me that you had the same concept of life and death at the age of 15 that you have now? Some people will but not all IMO.

And anyway, I was talking about the death penalty and not life imprisonment. I don't actually think life is fair either and would prefer to talk about treatment or rehabilitation of a 10 year old but hey, I'm a crazy liberal apologist right?!

Yeah, just like the Paedophile mess in the UK? It's the idiots who get all excited and protest 9 times out of 10 so it's the idiots who will be upset about the flushing incident or who went around smashing up Pediatricians houses back home! Unfortunately in the modern world it takes one hell of a lot to get rational people out in the streets and alternatevly just the smallest thing for the sheep like followers to jump around and make a fuss. Not sure if that's human nature or a snapshot of modern life but I'd suggest thats a seperate arguement anyway.

I don't remember saying anything even close to ALL of the muslim world so I don't know where you got that from? What I said was that in 'certain parts of' the muslim world then women are equal (ish!). Maybe not officially in all cases but trust me mate, I'm married to one and the younger generations won't go in for any of this downtroden stuff your talking about. As for female circumcision then don't the Jews 'mutilate' male genitalia too?

Sure there are plenty of cases of things such as honour killings happening but IMO it's just a case of cultural traditions and has nothing to do with 'islam' per se. At least no more than a modern Christian would say the Inquisition or bombing an abortion clinic has anything to do with Christianity.

I could be wrong about the timeframes but I'm sure that if a man had knocked his wife or kids around in the UK around 50-60 years ago then 'eductated' people would have frowned upon it but not much else would have been done. It's the same thing in the east. You think that a father or brother will get respect for an honour killing? Maybe amongst other backwards individuals in a remote pakistani village but amongst the educated and enlighted population, no way!

When was the 'rule of thumb' outlawed in the UK out of interest? We were also caning (whipping!) kids in school what, 30 odd years ago as well. I'm not saying there the same thing but it's an example of an outdated 'tradition' that we have evolved from. Unfortunately a lot of the 'muslim' world has yet to evolve from similar practices.

Anyway, I strongly disagree with the way women are treated in the Arab world in general and definately Islam is a shield that is used to further that so we're in agreement on this point.

I checked your link and it does back up your point. However, what is written in law often isn't how 'real life' runs and as for the common sense of Politicians then don't get me started! :Crazy:

First of all, I am neither a racist or a bigot. I would rather see 1000 hindus from the Indian sub continent immigrate to Britain rather than 10 white, blue-eyed blonde Swedish converts to Islam. A bigot is someone who has an uneducated view of something. My opinions on Islam are definately not uneducated, I can assure you.

I believe our way of life is the best way. Democracy brings freedom and prosperity (although it does have its blips) and vests its power in the people. If we don't like how things are, we can try and change it without the threat of persecution.

On the other side of the coin, democracy and Islam are incompatible. Man-made laws cannot be above the sharia. So the muslims have to like it or lump it. They don't have a choice, not that many want it. Bush is an utter ###### if he thinks he can bring democracy to the middle east. Time will prove this.

You say that Islam is peaceful except the stuff about the infidels (so not peaceful then!). Well, as an infidel, this is the stuff that worries me. With Islam making serious inroads into Europe and their voice becoming ever louder and louder, I wonder how I would fair (or more to the point, my children and grandchildren) in an Islimic Europe. History and Islamic scripture teaches me it would not be very nice.

"Fight those who do not believe in allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what allah and his apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who that have been given the book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection"

No need to fear the religion of peace and tolerance there then?

I quite agree about the use of hell in the bible. It's banded about just as much as it is in the qu'ran. But hey, fear controls the masses. Being non-religious, it doesn't control me.

I see you have quoted from the book of Luke. Absolutely bloody ridiculous. Yes, Jesus said it but you have quoted from "The parable of the gold coins". He was telling a story. What are you trying to achieve? That Christianity is as violent as Islam. You go on to mention the Inquisition and rightly point out that is was hundreds of years ago. Christianity has reformed and moved on. I understand what you say about the American christian right and they do have the ear of President Bush but in two years (unlike the mad mullahs) Bush will be gone. Democracy encourages constant reform and as zealous as you think they are. they are reformed enough not to go walking onto planes, trains and automobiles and blowing themselves up.

I can remember an incident where and an abortionist was shot dead but haven't heard of a clinic being bombed. Even so, you could count on one hand incidents like this whereas since 9/11 there have been over 4000 jihadist attacks in various parts of the world

You say when you get into debates like this that you end up defending Islam, that is because Ben, you are a muslim and Islam cannot tolerate criticism. Why you converted to Islam and then say you hate all religions is a tad hypocritical to say the least but i know you had to. I know a muslim woman cannot marry an infidel. It is haraam (forbidden). Funny how its not forbidden when the gender roles are reversed?

I did say that i believe most muslims are good people but i am now beginning to waiver in that view and that they are only good for each other, not for the infidel. For example:

The Egyption elections. The muslim brotherhood win 30% of the vote despite Mubarraks best efforts to make them far from fair and free.

The iraqi elections. Despite years of tyranny, in free and fair elections. They vote for the Islamic radicals.

The Palestinian elections. Hamas gets voted into government. A political movement that advocates the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic Palestine under the sharia.

I am 99% certain that if free elections were held in Saudi, Yemen, Qatar etc, then the Islamic radicals would win. We would might even see the re-establisment of the caliphate. A radicalised middle east is definately bad news for the non-muslims who live there. Is this the muslims showing there true colours, not so good after all.

You said you can't believe i have the same concept of life and death at 15 years old and of now. I can assure I did and even younger. Like I said earlier, I'm against the death penalty but life should mean life.

Why are you going abut the pediatricians house again? This was caused by one gang of idiots on one house. The quran flushing thingy caused riots and demostrations across the muslim world stirred up by eminent politicians like Imran Khan (hardly uneducated). Fourteen people were killed in Afghanistan ( I wonder how many were killed in that doctors house). Those elections i mentioned earlier are they not rational people or are they just the sheep. Because if they are, then its a bloody great flock. But seriously Ben, your comparisons are getting a bit ludicrous.

No you didn't say ALL the muslim world. I said it, just to emphasis the point that women are not treated equal across ALL of the muslim world. For example:

The womens testimony is worth half that of a mans in the sharia court.

In the event of divorce, the man receives twice as much of the family wealth.

In the crime of rape, the woman has to produce 4 male witness's to prove the rape (gangbang anyone).

Oh please, how can you compare female gender mutilation with male circumcision? Well maybe you're unfamiliar with the female genitalia. When the clitoris is cut out it ruins the girls sex life forever! Does that happen with circumcision?

You can say what you want about honour killings but it only happens in the muslim world across all different cultures in the muslim world. Pakistani, Arab, Persian, Turk, all different cultures but all muslim. Nice to see you brought up corporal punishment. This is now outlawed in the EU but it will never outlawed in Islam. The lash is there for keeps.

To sum up. The Islamic world is becoming more radicalised with the sharia being implemented more and more. It will continue to do so with the Islamic apologists defending and making excuses for them. Just listen to Islamic spokesmen there is always a "but". And as long as Islam lives in the 7th century then there will be more 16year old girls being hung for defending themselves against attempted rape whilst the perpertrators walk free.

[bad_shrek]

nice to feel welcome!

[solo1bc]

First of all, I am neither a racist or a bigot. I would rather see 1000 hindus from the Indian sub continent immigrate to Britain rather than 10 white, blue-eyed blonde Swedish converts to Islam. A bigot is someone who has an uneducated view of something. My opinions on Islam are definately not uneducated, I can assure you.

If you check again mate, I didn't call you a racist or a bigot. What I said was that if you think it's ok to generalise about nationality, religion etc. then you won't have a problem if someone does it about you.

Personally I don't like it which is why I don't do it to other people.

The correct definition of a bigot is someone who is intolerant of other people and their views anyway and has nothing to do with being uneducted so..

I believe our way of life is the best way. Democracy brings freedom and prosperity (although it does have its blips) and vests its power in the people. If we don't like how things are, we can try and change it without the threat of persecution.

On the other side of the coin, democracy and Islam are incompatible. Man-made laws cannot be above the sharia. So the muslims have to like it or lump it. They don't have a choice, not that many want it. Bush is an utter ###### if he thinks he can bring democracy to the middle east. Time will prove this.

Freedom and Prosperity hey? If you have equal opportunity then sure but you can't tell me that every or even ANY democracy has that. I believe its the best form of governance we've so far discovered as well and I agree that democracy and 'pure' islam don't complement each other but then again show me a perfect democracy anywhere.

I think in Europe we're fairly lucky (although I think Red Goblin might disagree!) but democracy is for sale to the highest bidder in most parts of the world including the 'guiding light' of the US.

You also seem to think that if a country follows Sharia law then it MUST be like the Sudan or Afghanistan. Surely you know though that whats written on paper isn't necessarily how real life is.

Again, I'm not defending or apologising for the radical muslim way of seeing the world. What I'm saying is that you cannot tar over a billion people with that brush!

You say that Islam is peaceful except the stuff about the infidels (so not peaceful then!). Well, as an infidel, this is the stuff that worries me. With Islam making serious inroads into Europe and their voice becoming ever louder and louder, I wonder how I would fair (or more to the point, my children and grandchildren) in an Islimic Europe. History and Islamic scripture teaches me it would not be very nice.

Fair enough if it worries you mate but it worries me no more than the Christian Right in America and to be honest no religion scares me as much as the big faceless corporations that have already taken over most of the world. Personally more worried about becoming a statistic on a spreadsheet than an 'infidel' in the eyes of some radical muslim.

"Fight those who do not believe in allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what allah and his apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who that have been given the book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection"

No need to fear the religion of peace and tolerance there then?

This is a manipulation in my opinion as this verse only applies to those who attack Islam or Muslims and does not apply to those who just want to carry on with their lives. Things like this are where a lot of the misunderstanding and fear comes from.

Heres a different verse from the Kuran that directly contradicts what your interpreting the previous one as.

Verse 60:08 "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just."

Basically it's saying you should treat people with kindness and justice unless they are attacking you or other muslims.

The basic greeting of all muslims (which the prophet Mohammed clearly states should be given to muslims and non-muslims alike) is of course "A Salamu Alaikum". This literally means "Peace be upon you" so there's your peaceful religion if your prepared to see it

Again, I don't think any religion can be entirely peaceful or tolerant but I wouldn't single one out over the other.

I quite agree about the use of hell in the bible. It's banded about just as much as it is in the qu'ran. But hey, fear controls the masses. Being non-religious, it doesn't control me.

I see you have quoted from the book of Luke. Absolutely bloody ridiculous. Yes, Jesus said it but you have quoted from "The parable of the gold coins". He was telling a story. What are you trying to achieve? That Christianity is as violent as Islam. You go on to mention the Inquisition and rightly point out that is was hundreds of years ago. Christianity has reformed and moved on. I understand what you say about the American christian right and they do have the ear of President Bush but in two years (unlike the mad mullahs) Bush will be gone. Democracy encourages constant reform and as zealous as you think they are. they are reformed enough not to go walking onto planes, trains and automobiles and blowing themselves up.

I can remember an incident where and an abortionist was shot dead but haven't heard of a clinic being bombed. Even so, you could count on one hand incidents like this whereas since 9/11 there have been over 4000 jihadist attacks in various parts of the world

I'm not trying to achieve anything other than to point out that no religion is perfect and neither are its followers. You don't like the book of Luke? Ok... how about the book of John where the Jews are called 'the sons of Satan!'

Let's be fair anyway. All religious texts are open to interpretation so all I've done is interpret the verse from the book of Luke in a certain way exactly as you have done with the above verse you've quoted from the the Kuran.

Besides if you want real intolerance then just check out the old testament! God is killing people left right and center! Women & Children.. whole populations!

Noahs Ark, Soddom & Gomorah, the exodus, the story of Onan etc. etc. etc!

As for terrorist attacks then I think we're in agreement that its barbaric and backwards but I've already said that countless times. I'll also go on record to say that I condemn ANY act of violence especially against innocent people just to get that clear.

It's my view though that the war on Iraq is the largest act of terrorism out there and although you say this 22% in USA are 'reformed' enough to not personally attack someone they are not so reformed to choose NOT to attack innocent countries with their billion dollar armies?

You could say that is more inhumane than blowing yourself up in fact. These people eat their breakfast while thousands die (indirectly) in their name.

4000 attacks! I doubt that to be honest and even if that is true you don't think there is a possibility that the increase in violence has something to do with the wests reaction to 9/11 and not the fact that they are just 'crazy muslims'?!

Apparently by saying this then I'm an apologist! In my mind it just makes me a rational person but there you go!

You say when you get into debates like this that you end up defending Islam, that is because Ben, you are a muslim and Islam cannot tolerate criticism. Why you converted to Islam and then say you hate all religions is a tad hypocritical to say the least but i know you had to. I know a muslim woman cannot marry an infidel. It is haraam (forbidden). Funny how its not forbidden when the gender roles are reversed?

What?! I defend Islam because I'm a 'muslim' and Islam cannot tolerate criticism!?

I thought you were making some good points in an interesting debate but that's just down right ignorant and a little offensive I'm afraid. I defend muslims on forums like these because of the ignorance of a large number of people at home who think 'muslim' and then automatically think 'suicide bomber' as if they are the same thing.

Its the same when I meet ignorant people over here who think that all English people are arrogant gits with a stick up their arse! I don't stand for that either!

I don't think it hypocritical to appease my mother in law to convert to a religion about which I care nothing when I'm not religious anyway? The way I see it is that I'm converting from nothing to nothing!

I could have had a civil marriage and nobody would have said anything but her mum is conservative so why create waves and besides I wouldn't have been able to choose the name Mohammed Ali!

I did say that i believe most muslims are good people but i am now beginning to waiver in that view and that they are only good for each other, not for the infidel. For example:

The Egyption elections. The muslim brotherhood win 30% of the vote despite Mubarraks best efforts to make them far from fair and free.

The iraqi elections. Despite years of tyranny, in free and fair elections. They vote for the Islamic radicals.

You say your waivering in your belief that most muslims are good people? That' s because I doubt you know many muslims mate!

No doubt people in the east look at the fact that George Bush got re-elected and thought exactly the same as your thinking now. "Well I guess most Americans are good people, but hold on they re-elected that psychopath?!"

And of course they look out for their own. What do you think every other country does? You think Bush was re-elected because they think he's leading the world down a global path full of peace and good will? No, he was reelected because they thought it was less taxes for themselves! He even refused to sign the Kyoto agreement which is for the whole effin planet and he still got re-elected!

As for Egypt then so what? The NP etc. got more votes in the UK than ever before so what's so unusual about it? It's just a trend of radicalism all across the world which is being propogated in my opinion by people like youself who fear what they don't understand.

Your surprised that a predominately Shia muslim population in Iraq voted for a Shia radical party after that countries recent history? Who did you expect them to vote for? A bunch of moderates who agree with the occupiers of there country? A bunch of Sunni's who have been treating them as second class citizens for the last 50 odd years?

The Palestinian elections. Hamas gets voted into government. A political movement that advocates the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic Palestine under the sharia.

Imagine that! The most oppressed people on the planet voting for a party that wants to destroy their oppressor and give them their own country? Unbelievable!

I am 99% certain that if free elections were held in Saudi, Yemen, Qatar etc, then the Islamic radicals would win. We would might even see the re-establisment of the caliphate. A radicalised middle east is definately bad news for the non-muslims who live there. Is this the muslims showing there true colours, not so good after all.

Yemen sure but most of that country live in rural areas so do you expect them to be the most modern and enlightened souls? In Saudi there is massive resentment by the common people against those in power (have's and have nots) so I don't think it's uncommon in those circumstances that people turn to radical groups?

As for Qatar & 'etc' then you just don't know what your talking about I'm afraid. Qatar, Oman, Bahrain are almost as moderate as the UAE so that's just an incorrect statement.

I agree that a radicalised middle east isn't good for anyone but again I feel equally strongly that a 'patriotised' USA is just as dangerous if not more so. No matter what these countries have done or will do to their own people or even their neighbours I haven't seen any of them invading countries around the world have you?

You said you can't believe i have the same concept of life and death at 15 years old and of now. I can assure I did and even younger. Like I said earlier, I'm against the death penalty but life should mean life.

Good for you then because although at the age of 10-15 I might have understood right and wrong and even understood the consequences of my actions to a certain degree, I cannot claim to have understood the larger implications or my responsibility to my fellow humans at that time. At least not as I do as an adult.

I don't think I'd be unusual in that and in fact I would suggest that your attitude would be more unusual. So fair play to you I guess.

Why are you going abut the pediatricians house again? This was caused by one gang of idiots on one house. The quran flushing thingy caused riots and demostrations across the muslim world stirred up by eminent politicians like Imran Khan (hardly uneducated). Fourteen people were killed in Afghanistan ( I wonder how many were killed in that doctors house). Those elections i mentioned earlier are they not rational people or are they just the sheep. Because if they are, then its a bloody great flock. But seriously Ben, your comparisons are getting a bit ludicrous.

If I remember correctly then it wasn't just an isolated incident at a single house at all so thats a bit of a smokescreen from your side IMO.

The reason I keep talking about it is to highlight to you the fact that some elements of society will always act in a stupid irrational way and no matter how educated Imran Khan is that doesn't make him rational or open minded. The demonstrations weren't anything major in the Gulf region so if they were big in Pakistan/Afghanistan then please see my previous comments about sections of those countries. Not only that but it's very easy to get an impression of 'huge' riots when shown such in the media. I remember the G8 summit in scotland where the only news footage I could find was a bunch of people smashing up cars and no footage of the thousands who went their to peacefully protest.

I don't think your statistic about 14 deaths means anything either. People are being killed everyday in 3rd world countries where life is tragically cheap. Go to Africa, South East Asia or even parts of Eastern Europe and you'll see a different attitude to death altogether. Its a daily part of these peoples lives and with infrastructure and often the police forces they have these things can happen quickly and easily unfortunately

No you didn't say ALL the muslim world. I said it, just to emphasis the point that women are not treated equal across ALL of the muslim world. For example:

The womens testimony is worth half that of a mans in the sharia court.

In the event of divorce, the man receives twice as much of the family wealth.

In the crime of rape, the woman has to produce 4 male witness's to prove the rape (gangbang anyone).

So your agreeing with me then? I can't tell! Women are not equal in ALL of the muslim world but are as near to in SOME of it.

As for your comments about the Sharia court then I think it's cultural traditions again mate. Please find something in the kuran that says a woman must have 4 witnesses to prove a rape? The religion does put the man in a position of power but only in the role of a breadwinner or 'head of the family' which would have applied all over the world regardless of religion as little as 30-40 years ago. Unfortunatly this has been hijacked by these cultures and passed off as 'religion'

You said it yourself, what better way to control a lot of people than to use religion (finally something we agree on! )

Oh please, how can you compare female gender mutilation with male circumcision? Well maybe you're unfamiliar with the female genitalia. When the clitoris is cut out it ruins the girls sex life forever! Does that happen with circumcision?

I wasn't comparing the results or consequences of male & female circumcision so why are you talking about that? I simply put forward the fact that other religions have similar (if less cruel) traditions so why single out muslims only? I'm not condoning either just pointing out that if you have a problem with one tradition (as I do!) then you should have a problem with all (as i do!)

You can say what you want about honour killings but it only happens in the muslim world across all different cultures in the muslim world. Pakistani, Arab, Persian, Turk, all different cultures but all muslim. Nice to see you brought up corporal punishment. This is now outlawed in the EU but it will never outlawed in Islam. The lash is there for keeps.

I didn't deny that it happened in muslim countries? What I said was that it is the ignorant idiots in these countries that carry out these attacks so why would you believe that these kind of things apply to all muslims or even a majority of them? I'm sorry mate as you seem like a nice guy and I'm enjoying this debate but that just smacks of ignorance.

To sum up. The Islamic world is becoming more radicalised with the sharia being implemented more and more. It will continue to do so with the Islamic apologists defending and making excuses for them. Just listen to Islamic spokesmen there is always a "but". And as long as Islam lives in the 7th century then there will be more 16year old girls being hung for defending themselves against attempted rape whilst the perpertrators walk free.

So you think that the muslim world is becoming more radical because of 'apologists'?! Thats is just plain crazy talk in my opinion.

You think that if people point out to other people like you that not all muslims are the same we are somehow excusing or condoning the worst part of these societies and encouraging them?!

Of course Islamic spokesman have to use the word 'but'. "These attacks were carried out by muslims BUT this is not what the muslim faith is about". They use the word because it's true and not because they the want to excuse the actions of a few idiots.

You don't think the rise in radicalism has anything to do with the fact that the muslim world feels like it is under attack since 9/11 and so they are being 'forced' into radical thinking by our politicians, media or armed forces? As an educated person I think you have to at least consider this a distinct possibility!

So in summary from my side then I don't have a problem if you want to have a go at muslim fanatics or muslim governments as I do it all the time but I do have a major problem when you just generalise about a lot of good and normal people.

I don't think its fair either if you don't acknowledge that it's not just muslim fanatics or governments that are 'bad'. It's all fanatics (except City fans!) and most if not all governments.

[bucksred]

Ben solo, what youre saying may be true, but look at it from native born Brits, and immigrant Brits, like me, and others from southern Africa points of view:

Musllims come here, and quite deliberatly set their communities apart. They maintain customs, which may be acceptable in their ancestral homelands, are patently NOT here. They have customs which offend natives of this country, and just think, the BNP is (rightfully ) in court for inciting racist violence, but several Muslim clerics appear to avoid it.........BNP don't represent Brits, and you'll say Hamza et all don't represent Islam...trouble is, its hard to shake the feeling, that a lot more muslims support Hamzas view, than us supporting the d1ckheads from the BNP

Muslim communities Always disagree with something, which the majority in this country do (Quite probably many Muslims disagree with their leaders views, for all I know. HOWEVER, THEIR views are not known.

One small example here: My firm is currently handing out long service awards to its staff. Most of the rewards for five years service are various types of booze. Now we have five muslims working there, ALL of whom, I've seen drinking said alcohol, BUT they complained, that as Muslims they couldnt drink alcohol!! WTF???

During Gulf War 1, when Iraqi TV showed (Illegally, under the Geneve Convention, as it goes!) the various shot down aircrew, including one MUSLIM Kuwaiti, our "delightful" muslim community, when this was shown on the TV set at work, all cheered... Now had I been there when this happened, I'd have battered as many as I could. I had just left the RAF, and hundreds of my mates were out there serving, including some of the air crew there. Now the Union flag we normally have flying, was taken down for the duration of the war, "to prevent offending ethnic minorities", and any of our staff, many of whom, had friends or family serving, out there, who wore support gear, was sent home to change. WTF????

Since this time, there has been a lack of trust between communities

[solo1bc]

Ben solo, what youre saying may be true, but look at it from native born Brits, and immigrant Brits, like me, and others from southern Africa points of view:

Musllims come here, and quite deliberatly set their communities apart. They maintain customs, which may be acceptable in their ancestral homelands, are patently NOT here. They have customs which offend natives of this country, and just think, the BNP is (rightfully ) in court for inciting racist violence, but several Muslim clerics appear to avoid it.........BNP don't represent Brits, and you'll say Hamza et all don't represent Islam...trouble is, its hard to shake the feeling, that a lot more muslims support Hamzas view, than us supporting the d1ckheads from the BNP

Muslim communities Always disagree with something, which the majority in this country do (Quite probably many Muslims disagree with their leaders views, for all I know. HOWEVER, THEIR views are not known.

One small example here: My firm is currently handing out long service awards to its staff. Most of the rewards for five years service are various types of booze. Now we have five muslims working there, ALL of whom, I've seen drinking said alcohol, BUT they complained, that as Muslims they couldnt drink alcohol!! WTF???

During Gulf War 1, when Iraqi TV showed (Illegally, under the Geneve Convention, as it goes!) the various shot down aircrew, including one MUSLIM Kuwaiti, our "delightful" muslim community, when this was shown on the TV set at work, all cheered... Now had I been there when this happened, I'd have battered as many as I could. I had just left the RAF, and hundreds of my mates were out there serving, including some of the air crew there. Now the Union flag we normally have flying, was taken down for the duration of the war, "to prevent offending ethnic minorities", and any of our staff, many of whom, had friends or family serving, out there, who wore support gear, was sent home to change. WTF????

Since this time, there has been a lack of trust between communities

I know where your coming from Bucks, I really do... I think there are plenty of communities who set themselves apart in the UK and its a bad thing. The recent racial violence in Bradford etc. is a perfect example of why!

Mandatory learning of the English language should be in place as well as some knowledge of both our culture and our history.

These people at your work just sound like a bunch of idiots so I'm not about to defend them for a second either and if they'd been cheering the TV in front of me I'd have said something as well. Why their religious preferences are given precedence over everyones elses you'll have to ask the PC brigade! My posts may give a different impression but I am definately not in that camp!

The only reason I get drawn into these debates is because people insist on thinking the word 'muslim' is the same as the word 'fanatic' which just isn't the case.

Like you said the BNP represent a very small minority of Brits and it's generally the same for these radical muslim clerics. They represent a small number of effin idiots while the majority are actually just normal (if different) people trying to get on with their lives.

It may seem that higher percentage seem to support Hamza but if your a minority anywhere in the world then I think you tend to stick together whereas being in our own country we don't feel the need to? Being a minority does give you a bit of a 'hard done by' attitude as well, its inevitable, so maybe thats why?

Also being able to speak at a mosque gives the freak a guaranteed audience as well I guess whereas if you want to go and listen to the BNP speak you have to go out of your way?

I think if you asked the normal muslim in the street though (over the age of 18!) if they supported Hamza or his policies then the vast majority would say no in my opinion.

Why the Union Jack would be 'offensive' to ethnic minorities is another question for the PC brigade I'm afraid. It's our national flag for ****s sake!

I actually think that the majority of the PC crowd who think like that are latent racists who are over compensating for their own hidden feelings.

[bucksred]

Very true my friend, very true