Why The World Loves America

[Guest MaloneFM]

He who dies with the most toys. Still Dies.

War. What is it good for? Absoloutely Nothing. Edwin Starr

[Mr Mosquito]

[Spud55]

Most of what I've read is total negativity regarding the USA. If you think all Yanks are pro-war then read the following lyrics to Scarborough fair by the legendary US artists Simon & Garfunkel.....the poignant verses I've emboldened.......

I don't think anyone thinks that all or even a lot of the american people are pro war. They have a huge number of artists who are openly anti war, Woody Guthrey (sp?) Steve Earl being two country singers who have written huge numbers of protest songs.

The problem is that i don't think the US government does or has ever really given much of a monkeys what the people want, unless public oppinion is so against something that it would be political suicide to do anything then they seem to do what they want, much like any government really.

The only problem i have is that like it or not because of the way the Us system works that big business has a huge say in policy, a large part of the upper eschelons of the Us government are on the boards of huge American companies, Halliburton for example. There simply has to be a conflict of interest there somewhere, and the way they are funded, the Republicans hugely by the oil companies means again that a huge conflict of interest must arise, and the defense industry they love a republican government as they tend to go out ad do stuff that requires their products while the democrats tend to be a much more home affairs party. Which is why i think the democrats will get in next term as the US need them to get back in and sort out the US economy which is a complete mess, and unless something is done it's going to take a big downturn, the Us is technically bankrupt.

I'm not anti American i just see them repeating the same mistakes over and over and not learning a damn thing, and their incredible lack of foresight is at time astounding, for example, i know lets save 2.9 billion Dollars by cutting the contract to Rolls Royce to build the second engine for the JSF, in the immediate term great, but it means that unless they are still given the contracts Britain will pull out of the JSF project and basically mean that the Us has to harbour development costs alone, which will cost tem a fortune. Would be agood thing for us as then mabye we'd see sense and go out and buy a load of Saab Grippen's which are better than anything out there at te moment bar the F22 and are one hell of a lot cheaper than either the Typhoon or the JSF.

This lack of foresight also translates to a lot of their business, which is why both Ford and GM are teetering on the brink of going under and taking the US economy with them.

[solo1bc]

So what about Nazi Germanys invasion, and attempted (1 million) genocide of Poland, Russia (13 million, 5 million pows murdered, 2 million Jews murdered, Yugoslavia (1 in seven Serbs, not including Jews and any of the thirteen other minorities there) Czedchoslovakia (Lidice anyone) the 1 million West Europeans including British) the murders by Nazi ss troops of at least three hundred British pows, thousands of Black coloinal French troops.

There is no Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Madjannek, Mauthausen, Belsen, Dachau, Sobibor. There is no experimentation on children, no testing of chemical weapons on Poles, no 300 trains a week taking Jews (and others) to death camps while German Army personnel died like rats because they had no ammo, because the trains wernt there, theres no whole departments squabbling over who murders children Jews and Slavs. Ther is no sending whole villages in Poland and Russia across Minefields to save German lives. There is no Mufti of Jerusalem inciting Bosnian and Albanian Muslims to kill Serbian Orthodox, and Catholic Croatians and Macedonians. Theres no grassing up of your parents for listening to the BBC to hear the truth.

Well I don't remember saying that the USA was EXACTLY like German in the 1930 mate so your listing of Nazi War crimes is a smokescreen in my opinion.

You've not responded about any of the points I made about the American government in South America, you've neatly sidestepped the fact that the CIA is kidnapping people and sending them to other countries to get tortured as well? Don't believe me? Ask the Italian government!

I'm impressed with your knowledge of WW2 but by avoiding these points it just seems like you're changing the subject to me.

Of course the USA isn't as openly evil as the Nazi's were but they are far from innnocent as well. Who do you think has been pumping crack cocaine into black inner cities for the last 25 years? I'm sure plenty of their own citizens have died from that but history hasn't recorded it yet (if it ever will!) so that can't count right?

People don't grass up their parents yet sure but there is plenty of encouragement to grass up your neighbour going on!

Open your eyes Bucks!

Ben you talk utter rubbish on this point. As well as being exceedingly disrespectful to the veterans of this and other countries of that hoerriying period in history. My dad had the misfortune to see some of the delights of the Third Reich, and he has never seen anything like it since

Why the hell am I being disrespectful? Explain.

So your theory is that we should accept whatever America want's now because they sacrificed for us in the past? The current American government is the one being disrespectful to that sacrifice! :@

You said yourself in another post that 'hard won freedoms' are being taken away. Hard won by the thousands of veterans and taken away by the coporate puppets in power today! :@

My point was that to say 'America saved us' is true in a way but also not that simple. They didn't save us out of the goodness of their hearts or because they believed Facism or Hitler was wrong. They did it for their own reasons as (initially) did we.

No one agrees about Guantanamo Bay......but how do you hold interrogate, and isolate fanatics who don't care if they die.

With the same respect that you would hope to be treated with if you were captured while fighting for a cause? Just an idea?!

Sure you might get treated worse if you we're captured but does that excuse pyscholgical torture? Or course, I forgot that we're still doing that 'eye for an eye' thing that has been so successful over the last few millenium!

THe US elections may well have not been to your liking, but the fact is Bush won it, fair & square-same as Hamas (And most us don't like that either) won in Palestine. It was not stolen. Mugabe STOLE an election. And if you think the US aint a democracy, howe come the likes of Green Day can STILL say what they like over there (And anyone else too) They cant in most of the Muslim world, or Africa, or South America

You're right of course. Bush didn't steal the election. His brother Jeb did it for him!! Get real Bucks, if you think that election was fair and square then you must be getting sloppy in your old age mate!

Why the hell would they care if Green Day (who TF!) or George Clooney say what they like? They don't care if a million people protest in the streets as long as the either lazy, selfish or stupidly patriotic crowd get out to vote come polling day!

What about CIA agent Larry Johnson's wife who was 'outed' as an undercover agent because of what he was saying? What about the smear campaigns against John Murtha amongst others.

The fact is that the very people who are supposed to be calling Bush on his lies and blatant incompentcy are the people who aren't doing it. The US Media (bought and paid for) or the US Senate (bought and paid for or destroyed when not!).

What does Green Day have to do with anything?

Yes the Yanks have been too gung ho, too agressive, made many enemies, listened to few others, but the difference between them and Nazi Germany, is that not all people agree there, and will be heard. The average Fritz changed his mind about the same time the RAF kicked Luftwaffe @ss in 1940, and definitely the minute he took on the Ivans.

And they came into WW2 because they were attacked by Japan. They tended then (and now too) to think the Europeans werent worth fighting for (given the complete lack of gratittude given by France, Belgium, & Germany since WW2). The Russians wanted Germany wiped off the face of Europe as did the French. The US persuaded them otherwise, hoping for strong allies. Some hope then, and now.

Being heard and ignored (or worse!) is almost as bad as not being heard at all.

To say that the US protected Germany (or us for that matter!) out of the 'goodness of their hearts' is naivety of the highest order in my opinion. They didn't want Germany wiped off the face of Europe because they didn't want either the Russians to get to strong or a more united western europe. Much better to have us all bickering amongst ourselves.

Forget all the left inspired conspiracy theory rubbish, and start dealing in the real world. You will be free as long as they (and their allies)decide to defend it, not the surrender monkies of France, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Italy, and all their fellow travellers around the world............among other things should they stop defending it which will go will be this forum, along with everything I hold dear, and I would imagine the majority of what you do.

Forget all the Rupert Murdoch Sky News swallowed nonsense and open your eyes to what is really happening. I'll be free from Red China etc. so long as I give up my freedoms to my own government? No effin thank you very much! :@

I'm greedy me, I want freedom from both!

The fact is that Bush/Blair etc. are proven liars about 9/11, 7/7, Iraq, Bin Laden & countless other issues! Wasn't it Hitler that said "the people will believe a big lie more readily than they'll believe a small one"??

They have conducted a propoganda war on their own people and actively encourage the politics of fear.

THIS was my parrallel to Nazi Germany.

You destroy your entire arguement by arguing along those lines.

Why?

[dagest]

Nice work Ben. I hope it's worth the effort.

The funny thing with arguing with Bucks is that (in my experience) I just about disagree with all his opinions and it really is an effort arguing with him. I'm sure he's a sweetie though really.

Bucks, can't we all just embrace and share our suppressed love for our fellow men & women? You know you want to.

[solo1bc]

Nice work Ben. I hope it's worth the effort.

The funny thing with arguing with Bucks is that (in my experience) I just about disagree with all his opinions and it really is an effort arguing with him. I'm sure he's a sweetie though really.

Bucks, can't we all just embrace and share our suppressed love for our fellow men & women? You know you want to.

He's a good bloke dagest and on footy matters we get along swimmingly! It's just EVERYTHING else we disagree on.

It's hard for an (old) leopard to change his right wing spots though so I don't mind the debates. He does know a few (sidestepping) dance moves but we're all guilty of that sometimes.

Come on you (bucks)reds!!!

[bucksred]

Well I don't remember saying that the USA was EXACTLY like German in the 1930 mate so your listing of Nazi War crimes is a smokescreen in my opinion.

You've not responded about any of the points I made about the American government in South America, you've neatly sidestepped the fact that the CIA is kidnapping people and sending them to other countries to get tortured as well? Don't believe me? Ask the Italian government!

I'm impressed with your knowledge of WW2 but by avoiding these points it just seems like you're changing the subject to me.

Of course the USA isn't as openly evil as the Nazi's were but they are far from innnocent as well. Who do you think has been pumping crack cocaine into black inner cities for the last 25 years? I'm sure plenty of their own citizens have died from that but history hasn't recorded it yet (if it ever will!) so that can't count right?

People don't grass up their parents yet sure but there is plenty of encouragement to grass up your neighbour going on!

Open your eyes Bucks!

Oh I have!! Livin in Africa opened them twenty odd years back, pal.

1. The US government in S America. quite true, but if you remove your anti US slant, and realise the Soviet Union, still extant then was trying to create an Anti american bloc in said S America. For every Contra, you get hard left Sandanistas (and they were taken over by the hard left) so that opens things a bit. Left wingers ALWAYS forget their antics in the rush to blame the US. (and while we're at it, any comments on Soviet & Red Chinese antics IDENTICAL in most of Sub Saharan Africa? Nah didnt think so somehow. And for every crime YOU drag up in Central america, I can EASILY match with one in africa by those other paragons of democracy, and those equal paragons of Islamic rule Sudan.

If you SERIOUSLY beleive the US Government is going to flood its own country with class a's with all the problems it has undoubtedly done, man, you are further gone than any one knows!!

Why the hell am I being disrespectful? Explain.

So your theory is that we should accept whatever America want's now because they sacrificed for us in the past? The current American government is the one being disrespectful to that sacrifice! :@

You said yourself in another post that 'hard won freedoms' are being taken away. Hard won by the thousands of veterans and taken away by the coporate puppets in power today! :@

My point was that to say 'America saved us' is true in a way but also not that simple. They didn't save us out of the goodness of their hearts or because they believed Facism or Hitler was wrong. They did it for their own reasons as (initially) did we.

With the same respect that you would hope to be treated with if you were captured while fighting for a cause? Just an idea?!

Sure you might get treated worse if you we're captured but does that excuse pyscholgical torture? Or course, I forgot that we're still doing that 'eye for an eye' thing that has been so successful over the last few millenium!

You're right of course. Bush didn't steal the election. His brother Jeb did it for him!! Get real Bucks, if you think that election was fair and square then you must be getting sloppy in your old age mate!

Why the hell would they care if Green Day (who TF!) or George Clooney say what they like? They don't care if a million people protest in the streets as long as the either lazy, selfish or stupidly patriotic crowd get out to vote come polling day!

What about CIA agent Larry Johnson's wife who was 'outed' as an undercover agent because of what he was saying? What about the smear campaigns against John Murtha amongst others.

The fact is that the very people who are supposed to be calling Bush on his lies and blatant incompentcy are the people who aren't doing it. The US Media (bought and paid for) or the US Senate (bought and paid for or destroyed when not!).

What does Green Day have to do with anything?

Being heard and ignored (or worse!) is almost as bad as not being heard at all.

To say that the US protected Germany (or us for that matter!) out of the 'goodness of their hearts' is naivety of the highest order in my opinion. They didn't want Germany wiped off the face of Europe because they didn't want either the Russians to get to strong or a more united western europe. Much better to have us all bickering amongst ourselves.

Forget all the Rupert Murdoch Sky News swallowed nonsense and open your eyes to what is really happening. I'll be free from Red China etc. so long as I give up my freedoms to my own government? No effin thank you very much! :@

I'm greedy me, I want freedom from both!

The fact is that Bush/Blair etc. are proven liars about 9/11, 7/7, Iraq, Bin Laden & countless other issues! Wasn't it Hitler that said "the people will believe a big lie more readily than they'll believe a small one"??

They have conducted a propoganda war on their own people and actively encourage the politics of fear.

THIS was my parrallel to Nazi Germany.

Why?

[dagest]

I was expecting so much more Bucks.

[bucksred]

Well I don't remember saying that the USA was EXACTLY like German in the 1930 mate so your listing of Nazi War crimes is a smokescreen in my opinion.

You've not responded about any of the points I made about the American government in South America, you've neatly sidestepped the fact that the CIA is kidnapping people and sending them to other countries to get tortured as well? Don't believe me? Ask the Italian government!

I'm impressed with your knowledge of WW2 but by avoiding these points it just seems like you're changing the subject to me.

Of course the USA isn't as openly evil as the Nazi's were but they are far from innnocent as well. Who do you think has been pumping crack cocaine into black inner cities for the last 25 years? I'm sure plenty of their own citizens have died from that but history hasn't recorded it yet (if it ever will!) so that can't count right?

People don't grass up their parents yet sure but there is plenty of encouragement to grass up your neighbour going on!

Open your eyes Bucks!

Oh I have!! Livin in Africa opened them twenty odd years back, pal.

1. The US government in S America. quite true, but if you remove your anti US slant, and realise the Soviet Union, still extant then was trying to create an Anti american bloc in said S America. For every Contra, you get hard left Sandanistas (and they were taken over by the hard left) so that opens things a bit. Left wingers ALWAYS forget their antics in the rush to blame the US. (and while we're at it, any comments on Soviet & Red Chinese antics IDENTICAL in most of Sub Saharan Africa? Nah didnt think so somehow. And for every crime YOU drag up in Central america, I can EASILY match with one in africa by those other paragons of democracy, and those equal paragons of Islamic rule Sudan.

If you SERIOUSLY beleive the US Government is going to flood its own country with class a's with all the problems it has undoubtedly done, man, you are further gone than any one knows!!

Why the hell am I being disrespectful? Explain.

So your theory is that we should accept whatever America want's now because they sacrificed for us in the past? The current American government is the one being disrespectful to that sacrifice! :@

Nope pointing out that they aint great Satan.

You said yourself in another post that 'hard won freedoms' are being taken away. Hard won by the thousands of veterans and taken away by the coporate puppets in power today! :@

Nope by the likes of you who see conspiricy in every corner, courtesy Uncle Sam. You beleve the fools who tell you this.

My point was that to say 'America saved us' is true in a way but also not that simple. They didn't save us out of the goodness of their hearts or because they believed Facism or Hitler was wrong. They did it for their own reasons as (initially) did we.

No an undeclared war forced them in Pearl Harbour, 7 December 1941, thereby teaching them a lesson. One they havent forgotten, unlike the surrender monkies here and in Europe.

With the same respect that you would hope to be treated with if you were captured while fighting for a cause? Just an idea?!

If any of our poor sods get captured by ANY Islamic militia, military force they will ecxpect little, and get no mercy. Read Chris ryan, and John Nichols books have you? I have, and they got neither. Next. We don't disagree about Abu Graib- neither do 99% of Amis

Sure you might get treated worse if you we're captured but does that excuse pyscholgical torture? Or course, I forgot that we're still doing that 'eye for an eye' thing that has been so successful over the last few millenium!

Pysological torture can be anything from kneeking with your arms behind your head, to listening to (*gulp* hours of techno/G n R/ James Blunt )at ear splitting sound, to simulated beatings. ALL are acceptable, provided the subject is not PHYSICALLY harmed, note capitals there. Just how would you extract information from a dangerous fanatic/and or sympathiser about further 9/11 type bombings? Your Muslim states would have NO QUALMS about using violence to extract said info, none what so ever.

You're right of course. Bush didn't steal the election. His brother Jeb did it for him!! Get real Bucks, if you think that election was fair and square then you must be getting sloppy in your old age mate!

So you think that the last election wasnt fair then? so how did the Democrats lose so badly. As for the previous one. Get real. We have had another since, and Bush won that fair and square . Politics is a dirty game, and the pansy Democrats couldnt mix it. no Clintons there this time.

Why the hell would they care if Green Day (who TF!) or George Clooney say what they like? They don't care if a million people protest in the streets as long as the either lazy, selfish or stupidly patriotic crowd get out to vote come polling day!

Ah another key difference between Great Satan, and other nasty regimes- those nasty regimes wipe out dissidents (Berlin 53, Warsaw 53, Budapest 56, Sharpville 61, Prague 68 (While all the anti war pussies were havin a pop at uncle Sam, Comrade Breshnev, wiped out Prague spring- any of you sad anti war types ashamed of that abysmal show?? No?? didnt think so! Tienamen Square anyone? recent events in Lebanon?. Our Amis can demo all they like. enemy of the world. Really? Why do so many people wanna live there?

What about CIA agent Larry Johnson's wife who was 'outed' as an undercover agent because of what he was saying? What about the smear campaigns against John Murtha amongst others.

You could do that with every country on the planet. No question. No comments about the Frogs blowing up Rainbow Warrior? The Taleban destroying Buddist sculptures?

The fact is that the very people who are supposed to be calling Bush on his lies and blatant incompentcy are the people who aren't doing it. The US Media (bought and paid for) or the US Senate (bought and paid for or destroyed when not!).

Oh God not this old chestnut. Murdoch owns a load of it and hes an Aussie fer Chrissakes!! Ben, Ben, Ben, for an educated fella, you do fall for the dumbest rule of all. Tell a lie enough, and it becomes a truth. staple of the left on the subject of the Amis, like forever!

What does Green Day have to do with anything?

Rather a lot actually, cos along with System of A Down, they lead an anti Bush Rock the Vote movement in the US, and have a huge proffile right now. Take a listen to American Idiot, and Bullet for A Bible for a clue. Funny old thing they protest freely, AND their fans too.

Being heard and ignored (or worse!) is almost as bad as not being heard at all.

Wether you like it or not, its got fork all to do with us, who the Amis vote for president. You cant just have Kennedys or Clintons, you get Reagans and Bushews 1 & 2 as well.

To say that the US protected Germany (or us for that matter!) out of the 'goodness of their hearts' is naivety of the highest order in my opinion. They didn't want Germany wiped off the face of Europe because they didn't want either the Russians to get to strong or a more united western europe. Much better to have us all bickering amongst ourselves.

No they were naive enogh to beleve a strong democratic Germany would share in the burden of protecting freedom. The Amis also pushed for european unity before Europe was much interested in it. Frnace and Britain wanted the status quo back. the amis didnt.

Forget all the Rupert Murdoch Sky News swallowed nonsense and open your eyes to what is really happening. I'll be free from Red China etc. so long as I give up my freedoms to my own government? No effin thank you very much! :@

Mate, take your head out of the islamic closed mindset. The Amis are not a worry, unless you are hellbent on trying to attack them. Unlike Islamic fundamentalists, and the Peoples Republic of China, and you could include Putins Russia in that select group

I'm greedy me, I want freedom from both!

Nice thought. Wrong time. at this time our Western Democratic way of life is under enormous pressure from all sorts of change. There are no certainties as in the past. We all want freedom. there is a price for it. europe aint. the US, well it is.

The fact is that Bush/Blair etc. are proven liars about 9/11, 7/7, Iraq, Bin Laden & countless other issues! Wasn't it Hitler that said "the people will believe a big lie more readily than they'll believe a small one"??

What lies about 9/11-you really have lost it mate!! You don't swallow that crummy story about Amis planning it, or even more laughably Israel. Little reality check here. I am ex military, and errr the reality is a tad different to your interpretation. What politicians do with truth is their, and our choice. Simple intelligence don't lie.Lies all round on Iraq.Truth out there on those...........I refer my honourable member for Dubai to my comment further up, re the big lie.......

They have conducted a propoganda war on their own people and actively encourage the politics of fear.

One description. I disagree on the encourage the politics of fear. That is quite simply down to middle class panic on every issue. We almost agree there.

THIS was my parrallel to Nazi Germany.

Poor parallel, I'm afraid. There is no comparison between Nazi Germany and the USA. One question for you:

If as you say there is a parallel between the two- how come the surrender monkies arent rearming, let alone ourselves, the USA, Australia, Poland and others? all those foreces are actually enduring cutbacks-even the Amis.

Why?

Why indeed?

Final question here, and this is addressed to all you folks who don't like Uncle Sam, and think in terms of Great Satan etc, and milder forms there of.

How much American music do you buy/download/burn? Judging by the charts, not many.

How much Ami TV d'you watch? Likewise.

How many Ami clothes do you wear? ahem likewise.

How many go on holidays to the USA? No idea, but loads.

How many shop/bank/work for Ami Companies/corporations? No idea. I do

If you really don't like em, don't buy any thing from the USA, listen, watch anything from the USA, and don't do on holiday there, and don't work for Ami companies. It really is that simple. I don't buy anything French- Chiracs support for Mugabe ensured that. My small act of defiance.

There are some awesome things to come out of the states, and some incredible acts of generosity too.And it really is simple, the US has ensured our freedom since 1941.

I was expecting so much more Bucks.

Better squire?

He's a good bloke dagest and on footy matters we get along swimmingly! It's just EVERYTHING else we disagree on.

It's hard for an (old) leopard to change his right wing spots though so I don't mind the debates. He does know a few (sidestepping) dance moves but we're all guilty of that sometimes.

Come on you (bucks)reds!!!

Mistake no 1 Benny boy- Right wing i'm not.

anti Left I am, having had to put up with its drivel fer so may years of ill informed rubbish.

[Spud55]

Final question here, and this is addressed to all you folks who don't like Uncle Sam, and think in terms of Great Satan etc, and milder forms there of.

How much American music do you buy/download/burn? Judging by the charts, not many.

How much Ami TV d'you watch? Likewise.

How many Ami clothes do you wear? ahem likewise.

How many go on holidays to the USA? No idea, but loads.

How many shop/bank/work for Ami Companies/corporations? No idea. I do

If you really don't like em, don't buy any thing from the USA, listen, watch anything from the USA, and don't do on holiday there, and don't work for Ami companies. It really is that simple. I don't buy anything French- Chiracs support for Mugabe ensured that. My small act of defiance.

There are some awesome things to come out of the states, and some incredible acts of generosity too.And it really is simple, the US has ensured our freedom since 1941.

Umm just a point what the hell has that got to do with anything ? so just because people like things that the AMERICAN PEOPLE do, means they can't criticise their government ?? interesting if somewhat misguided opinion.

I agree with some of what you say but some of it is so naieve it is untrue, much like i believe some of ben's oppinions to be completely naieve too.

We have many, many factors to thank for the defeat of the Nazis in world war II. The Americans are undoubtedly one of them but they are not the only one. Zukov was just as important if not moreso in defeating the Nazis than the Americans were, without him Russia would have fallen as Stalin was meadling until 41 until Zukov told him to stop being a prat and do what he did best, and only then did Russia start to get anywhere in the war. The Germans decision to start bombing the cities is the most important factor in winning the war as we were 3-6 weeks at most from defeat when Hitler changed the targets in response to the bombing of Berlin, the war would have been lost had that not happened, we would not have lost our nation but rather sued for a respectable peace, but the war for us would have been over.

The Italians played a part in the germans defeat in that they crucially delayed barbarossa, meaning that the Germans would be fighting in the Russian winter.

Also the Purges of Stalin played a massive role as well in that had it not been for them germany would have been in no position to attack Russia until she could bring her full millitary might to bear, as Soviet Millitary doctarine in the 30's was as adavnced as anybodys, their tactics for using tanks were much the same as the Germans, but then Stalin wiped these people out leaving Russia Millitarily weak and in a position where an invasion could actually work without the full capabiliies of the wermacht. It was not a bad thing in the long term that he did this, with the soviet ability to create huge numbers of descent tanks, not quite as good as German armour, but the t34 and the Stalin I and II's in particular were very good pieces of equipment, god knows what would have happened if they could have combined this with a good tank doctarine, they could have done a lot of damage considering we were poncing around in Shermans which were fairly naff, the US gave a few thousand to Russia, to which the Russians spent a while rolling around on the floor in laughter as they thought they were a pile of crap.

It is also worthwhile to remember however that the Us did help Russia during the war, a large portion of their trucks were supplied to them by the US. So while some factors were more important than others like the bombing of British cities most factors were all completely intertwined so nobody can say that they did more to win the war than anyone esle. Wit the exception of Hitlers idiocy Britain, Russia and the Us all played a huge part in winning that war and one that should never be forgotten by anyone.

Wich is why i am grateful to Roosevelt as he was one of the few in the Us that did want to enter the war on an ideological base, and all those americans that gave their lives when most of europe had fallen around us ( we only survived because of our status as an island, if were were linked by land to the continent we would too have fallen to the germans) and all those British people who fought in the war, all the people from the colonies who fought and died bravely for us (which is why i don't get rascism against any of these people as they did more than they ever needed or had to to defend this countries) the indians, the carribeans, some africans. I also feel grateful to the 12 million Russians who gave their lives to defeat the Germans. Which is why i get so annoyed with any American who says that they saved us, because in a way they did but that is so disrespectful to those that thelped this little nation stand alone against the most powerful millitary nation on the planet at the time. It's something that when i think about it makes me immensely proud to be british, we have stood alone against more powerful nations many times and triumphed.

They were not acts of generosity, an act of generosity would have been to rebuild europe and demand nothing in return, not make pretty much their only ally in the world at the moment pay it back, that is not generosity that is business, plain and simple, what was an act of generosity was when Clinton waved the debt oweing for us in 96 i think it was.

As for bush not winning the election fairly that is bull, 2001 was a little dodgy, but in essence that was more down to the system in florida rather than any open corruption, the last one was completely fair. What you must realise is that American politics is very different from ours, in ours elections are fought on issues, partys come up with policies and then people decide to an extent based on those, the tories lost the last election not because they are all evil people, but because they were stupid and came up with economic policies that left a huge 7 billion pound hole which they simply could not account for. In the Us it is different, there is very little policy discussion and more personal attacks, Kerry lost the last election because he was naieve, and managed to loose huge portions of the traditionally democrat black vote because of his normal rational stance of being pro choice about abortion, which upset the christian people and so they voted in swathes for Bush despite him being far worse for America internally. Bush has damaged the American economy hugely, the fact that since he has been in power the Us economy is about as stable as a toddler is a very bad thing for the world.

The fact that two of the biggest companies on the planet are ailing terribly and are teetering on the brink is worrying, and bush and his government are more concerned in blowing up people all over the world in a war that simply can't be won by force, as history has proven many, many times. You can't try to win hearts and minds with one hand while the other is killing innocent civilians and driving more to the extreemist cause. Yes we don't do it intentionally and it does happen fact of life, but try telling that to some poor sod who has just had his entire family blown up by an American bomb. It's very easy to say that we are better than the terrorists when sat over here in saftey, and we arebetter than them, but i can't say that if the situation was reversed and it was my family that had been blown up by a US bomb that i would take up arms agaisnt them. I know that if some idiot set of a dirty bomb in London or New York that would be it i would join the forces without hesitation.

It's also very easy from this side to condemn the terrorists because they strike at Civillians but what else are they supposed to do ? take on a few abrams with an RPG and an ak well tats going to go well isn't it ? We call them evil because it makes it easier for us to rationalise the whole thing, while if you accept that they are fighting a war with the only means they have (wrong as it may be) you also have to consider why they are doing it and tat leads to greater questions of both our and the US actions in rescent history, so it's much easier to say "ooh they are evil peple" and thats it.

As i have said i don't dislike the Americans i just think at times a little bit of thinking time for their government instead of just bounding from one thing to the next lik an excited dog would do the world a power of good.

[dagest]

the Soviet Union, still extant then was trying to create an Anti american bloc in said S America.

The Soviet Union and the US were both playing the same game. The point is that most of these countries came to their own decisions through their own wills. There was no Soviet union threatening them. If anything it is the US that does the threatening in that part of the world. Regarding the Sandinistas, they came to power through their won internal politics. They only overthrew their own Samoza dictatorship. Why did the US feel it had the right to intefere? Besides the Sandinistas established a democracy and generally improved the living conditions of the people. I think the truth is that the US doesn't like alternative systems which can produce positive results. That's why it has despised Cuba for so long. And what about Chile where a "Marxist" govt was democratically brought into power. There was no evidence of Soviet Union interference. Besides, where was the US concern for the spread of democracy when the democratically elected govt. was over-thrown by Pinochet?

surrender monkies here and in Europe.

Can you qualify that? Do you think it's a little disrespectful to all the Europeans that lost their lives fighting the Nazis?

Pysological torture can be anything from kneeking with your arms behind your head, to listening to (*gulp* hours of techno/G n R/ James Blunt )at ear splitting sound, to simulated beatings. ALL are acceptable, provided the subject is not PHYSICALLY harmed, note capitals there.

Are you serious? You would have happily approved of the Stalinist torture techniques too then I presume? Besides torture rarely provdes truths just requisite answers.

Your Muslim states would have NO QUALMS about using violence to extract said info, none what so ever.

I can't speak for Ben, but I doubt he sees himself as being ideologically allied with Iran or Saudi Arabia for example. Of course the US don't mind Saudi Arabia, Egypt or any other "islamic" state when it suits. I believe they find them very useful for using the torture techniques that are illegal in their own country.

Ah another key difference between Great Satan, and other nasty regimes- those nasty regimes wipe out dissidents (Berlin 53, Warsaw 53, Budapest 56, Sharpville 61, Prague 68 (While all the anti war pussies were havin a pop at uncle Sam, Comrade Breshnev, wiped out Prague spring- any of you sad anti war types ashamed of that abysmal show??

You seem to think we are all Stalinists? Again, I can't speak for Ben, but I aint no Stalinist.

Why do so many people wanna live there?

Possibly because US corporations are extracting the world's wealth and concentrating it in their little corner of the world. But hey, that's Capitalism for you.

Anyway, I have a lovely curry waiting for me now, so I'll leave it there.

[bucksred]

The Soviet Union and the US were both playing the same game. The point is that most of these countries came to their own decisions through their own wills. There was no Soviet union threatening them. If anything it is the US that does the threatening in that part of the world. Regarding the Sandinistas, they came to power through their won internal politics. They only overthrew their own Samoza dictatorship. Why did the US feel it had the right to intefere? Besides the Sandinistas established a democracy and generally improved the living conditions of the people. I think the truth is that the US doesn't like alternative systems which can produce positive results. That's why it has despised Cuba for so long. And what about Chile where a "Marxist" govt was democratically brought into power. There was no evidence of Soviet Union interference. Besides, where was the US concern for the spread of democracy when the democratically elected govt. was over-thrown by Pinochet?

Anymore than Dubchek overthrow in Czechoslovakia in 68, or Nagys in hungary in 56, by Ivan Which they criticised strongly. Unlike Ivan who invaded to put down a counterrevolution

Can you qualify that? Do you think it's a little disrespectful to all the Europeans that lost their lives fighting the Nazis?

Are you serious? You would have happily approved of the Stalinist torture techniques too then I presume? Besides torture rarely provdes truths just requisite answers.

Correct, TORTURE doesnt, but Phycological (ie playing mindgames, and playing on fears DOES work, indeed many plans/plots have been uncovered in this manner. It is the most effective way of working on this problem, and it is legal, provided that line aint crossed. As for europeans fighting the Nazis, as many Dutch fought in the SS, as the Princess Irene brigade, there were significant numbers of Waloons, and Flemish (Belgians) as well as Danes, Norwegians, Spanish, Finns, Swiss, Swedes, and Italians. Croats, Bosnians, Albanians & Kosovars, and even Serbs did as well. Europe swung both ways. Some Germans fought against Hitler, and they werent all Communists/Socialists either. No I don't think its disrespectful. Their appeasement led directly to Hitler siezing Czechoslovakia, and thinking he could get away with invading Poland.

As for Pinochet, his governemnt was threatening all sorts of stuff on the US, and getting pally wi Castro, bit of a no no that.

I can't speak for Ben, but I doubt he sees himself as being ideologically allied with Iran or Saudi Arabia for example. Of course the US don't mind Saudi Arabia, Egypt or any other "islamic" state when it suits. I believe they find them very useful for using the torture techniques that are illegal in their own country.

Like any nation the US shifts allies, as and when it deems it fit to do so, the same as any country, but Uncle Sam is at fault for it always??. I doubt very much, some Central american regimes, S Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos in the 60's excepted, wether the US influence, you and others beleive is dominant, is actually there. like any regime of any type it does have its preferred option, and will back that choice where possible. as the PRC does with Robert Mugabe, and his illegal government.

You seem to think we are all Stalinists? Again, I can't speak for Ben, but I aint no Stalinist.

Possibly because US corporations are extracting the world's wealth and concentrating it in their little corner of the world. But hey, that's Capitalism for you.

Nope, I aint ycalled you or Ben a Stalinist, lefty liberal beardie, in your case, but stalinist no.

and capitialism is the only way, in which many will ever have a better life. Socialism, per se is not a bad idealogy, however, it has been turned into a movement, in which, EVERYONE gets dragged down, though taxation, nationalisation, it supresses inventiveness, initiative, encourages sloth, and a soemeone else can look after me society. Life aint ever, aint now, and will never be like that. There will always be winners, and losers. Notice how those hard working socialists Schroeder, get a job with a top corporation, as soon as his electorate reject HIM (not is party per se, HIM), and Cyril Ramaphosa the SA TUC leader, now doing very well as a capitalist in SA and Europe too. hypocricy is a stock in trade in so much of those of the left, in attacking the US.

Anyway, I have a lovely curry waiting for me now, so I'll leave it there.

Quite, meatballs and rice for me, not fried communist and sauteed socialist

[mozo]

Come on Dagest have you really got a beard you lefty liberal you?!

Never trust a man with a beard, that's what my old nan used to say (and she had one!).

I feel I may have lowered the tone here a notch or two...

[dagest]

Come on Dagest have you really got a beard you lefty liberal you?!

Never trust a man with a beard, that's what my old nan used to say (and she had one!).

I feel I may have lowered the tone here a notch or two...

Er...no. The wife wouldn't allow it. And besides I have hot chicks at work to keep impressed as well which is much more important. There's no chance of that with a beard.

Never trust a man with a beard? - that's stereoptypical nonsense. Just look at David Blunkett!

[solo1bc]

Better squire?

Mistake no 1 Benny boy- Right wing i'm not.

anti Left I am, having had to put up with its drivel fer so may years of ill informed rubbish.

Bloody Hell!

It's going to take me ages to reply to all that drivel Bucks! I'll get to it though, don't you worry!

Not right wing? Doesn't 'anti-left' make you right wing? Not sure, but by definition (and your views) I think it does mate.

Mistake no 2 - calling you a good bloke and thinking that a debate wouldn't turn into an aggressive rant from you with "pal" or "the likes of you" or even better "your muslim states" contained.

PS. I tried growing a beard once but it looked crap.

[mozo]

Okay people it's time to focus on the real issues that this thread seems to be skirting around in virtually every post: 'Beards a sign of being untrustworthy'!!

I'll be honest, that wasn't the true quote from my dear old nan (RIP), what she actually said was - and this is now completely true - don't trust a man with a monobrow. Now, I've got one mate with a serious monobrow. Would I trust him? I wouldn't like to say really (which says it all).

As for beards, some people can pull it off better than others. I caouldn't do it, but I like a bit of stubble just show that I'm edgy and anarchic!

People with monobrows - Liars!

[bransonmo]

Okay people it's time to focus on the real issues that this thread seems to be skirting around in virtually every post: 'Beards a sign of being untrustworthy'!!

I'll be honest, that wasn't the true quote from my dear old nan (RIP), what she actually said was - and this is now completely true - don't trust a man with a monobrow. Now, I've got one mate with a serious monobrow. Would I trust him? I wouldn't like to say really (which says it all).

As for beards, some people can pull it off better than others. I caouldn't do it, but I like a bit of stubble just show that I'm edgy and anarchic!

People with monobrows - Liars!

Beards work for people like James Robertson Justice, and stubble does appear to be 'in' right now, however I don't trust people who have to quote dead people on their posts.

[Spud55]

Correct, TORTURE doesnt, but Phycological (ie playing mindgames, and playing on fears DOES work, indeed many plans/plots have been uncovered in this manner. It is the most effective way of working on this problem, and it is legal, provided that line aint crossed. As for europeans fighting the Nazis, as many Dutch fought in the SS, as the Princess Irene brigade, there were significant numbers of Waloons, and Flemish (Belgians) as well as Danes, Norwegians, Spanish, Finns, Swiss, Swedes, and Italians. Croats, Bosnians, Albanians & Kosovars, and even Serbs did as well. Europe swung both ways. Some Germans fought against Hitler, and they werent all Communists/Socialists either. No I don't think its disrespectful. Their appeasement led directly to Hitler siezing Czechoslovakia, and thinking he could get away with invading Poland.

As for Pinochet, his governemnt was threatening all sorts of stuff on the US, and getting pally wi Castro, bit of a no no that.

Agree completely on the torture bit, torture using pain doesn't work, people just tell you what you want to hear and is usually unrealiable, while using psychological torture is far better at getting results but it is more damaging to a person than physical torture in many cases. A lot of those tortured using psychological means never recover fully from their expirence while physical wounds heal.

How can you call it their appeasement? we were just as much involved in the appeasement of nazi germany than other European powers were, and it was an understandable course of action, Europe wanted to avoid another war at all costs, what they didn't realise was that Germany simply had to go to war, Hitlers plans and schemes that pulled gemany out of the great depression crippled the country financially and he had to go to war to in any way hope to recoup that loss. It's also important to remember that the drive of the victors of a war to do it again is far, far lower than that of the losers, the Germans had something to proove particularly after the humilliation that was versailles, which is the only thing i'd blame the Europeans over us for as we did not want to go as far as versailles did, but allowed the french to do so because they had lost more in WWI than we had.

[bucksred]

Ben: No hostility from me, I talk like that anyway. Debate is good.

As for beards: makes old people and the Brislington goatherd look distinguished, makes the rest of us look sad.

Monobrows, Denis Healey, and the (in)famous sillybilly anyone?