Question,

[Jimmy]

It does slightly confuse me when people tout the 'hand grenade' incident as the reason we have {all but} missed out on the play-offs. I understand the logic people are short sightedly employing, this being failing to pick up any points in the subsequent 4 game period cost us a play-off place.

In a respect this is of course true, it is as true as saying if we had beat Doncaster, MK Dons or Colchester, picked up any points from Huddersfield, Swansea or Bournemouth away under Tinnion, as true as saying converting any draw under GJ or any loss into points would have bolstered our chances.

The issue here is that people are, understandably, allowing our outstanding form and unmistakable progression to blind them in regards to the big picture. Or perhaps rather allowing themselves to captalise on the clubs current status as 'best team' over the past half season in order to make unfounded claims that we were play-off bound.

In order for us to suggest GJ has blown our play-off chances, surely we must acknowledge the outstanding job he has done in getting us so close. I would suggest that if we had mathematically confirmed our League 1 status only a week or so ago, people would write this season off as a rebuilidng one and view the 'hand grenade' as a necessary tool, rather than a season spoiler.

I forget the post I saw it on the other day, but someone had stated that they would have 'chewed their arm off' for 20th place over xmas, and now we are 9th. A very good point and one that encapsulated the feeling of the fans at a time when this club was in a state of turmoil.

Therefore the question needs to be asked;

If we were now languishing in relative safety around 14th place, having displayed inconsistent form whilst picking up enough points to ensure our safety, would fans write this season off as a rebuilding one with all talk of the hand grenade being 'the shake up that was needed' rather than 'the act that ruined our season'?

After all, it appears to be the general concensus on here that a crop of new players are needed in order for us to mount a challenge next year, so surely what that points to is the outstanding job GJ has done in amassing only 4 defeats in 23 games, only losing 1 game in our last 11 and winning 6 of our last 7.

What this points to is that GJ is very much a victim of his own success. Getting us so close to the play-offs through making us the best team in this division over the course of half a season has caused fans to once again inflate expectations whilst, in sharp contradiction, claim that we need to recruit players in the summer to achieve anything next season.

As I put forward asked in a previous post, unless people are openly admitting that Gary Johnson is a far superior manager to Brian Tinnion, which presumably is the case as there was no indication we were play-off/promotion bound under BT, on the contrary; played 7, won 1, drawn 3, lost 3, for 7, against 14, then I fail to see how anyone can suggest we have done poorly not to make the play-offs.

[Bristol Boy]

I actually posted the bit about settling for finishing 19th at Xmas.

There is no doubt that GJ has done a good job if we finish 9th, 10th etc, etc.

I think the point that people are trying to make, is that period of nine succesive defeats or no points from twenty one, after a bright start under GJ, came after the hand grenade and not when he first took over.

For me, I've always said that GJ made mistakes with some poor loan signings and trying to change to much to soon.Easy when you're bottom of the league and need to do something and fast! Other matters such as injuries and the town boy incident were beyond his control as I've always been at pains to point out.

He has proved since, that the players he had were better than those loans-Woodman being the classic example.

The ones he has brought in subsequently are better and have gelled with the existing squad to become "his team" It has to be said it's easier to join a winning, confident team as Michael Bridges proved not long after his move to Carlisle!

Of the team that played Saturday only Basso & Noble have signed permanently, although I hope that Fontaine & McCammon do on what I've seen so far.

That leaves seven of DW & BT's signings that still form the nucleus of the team-The point being that they couldn't have been that bad as they proved by winning GJ three of is first four games.

I am quietly confident although I'll wait to see what happens in the close season before I start making to many predictions

Nice post!

[BCFC Grim]

Great post, but the simple thing is, city fans are never happy. They cant bring thewmselves to admit they were wrong in the past and carry on with their poor excuse for an argument. GJ has done a great job, and has gone past most of our expectations.

He inherited a bunch of no-hopers, un-motivtaed, money grabbing, players who were not fit to wear the shirt!, (sorry lads but it was true) BUT we now have players who are willing to play for eachother and put all their effort into the club. Which is largely thanks to Gj! Also fair play to the players for getting thier A£ses in to gear! I for one am proud of the whole club, after the poor start, they have pulled together and come through it as a team!

Quoating what GJ said on the site yesterday' WE ARE MOVING FORWARD TOGETHER AS A CLUB'

That is the simple fact and the future is looking bright!

[gazareth]

I think the point that people are trying to make, is that period of nine succesive defeats or no points from twenty one, after a bright start under GJ, came after the hand grenade and not when he first took over.

How many times will this misconception be repeated? The 'hand grenade' came DURING the run of nine successive defeats, not BEFORE it.

It occurred after the Southend game, the 4th game in the run, and there were another 4 league defeats plus the loss to Notts Country in the FA Cup before we beat Huddersfield.

Personally I think that the incident has been blown way out of proportion. Managers yell at their players all of the time. They do it because sometimes you need to yell at people. Sure, sometimes you need to take the softly-softly approach, and by all accounts our esteemed manager does that as well. Hell, most of the players acknowledge that the reason for their improved performance in the second half on Saturday was down to Johnson giving them a rocket in the arse at half-time.

Our run of defeats was caused by a mixture of misguided team selection (as he wasn't fully familiar with his players), loan signings made out of panic (and from a presumably limited pool of available players), poor morale (which detoriated with each loss), injuries and of course, the effect on the squad of a certain night in Romeo Brown's.

The key point that we all need to consider when evluating his time in charge thus far, and when considering our chances of further progress next season is this: Are we likely to experience such a run of defeats under Johnson again? Personally, I think no. I don't think circumstances are likely to conspire against us in such a manner, and I'm also completely confident that Johnson now has the trust and backing of the entire playing staff; compare the way they bounced back from a goal down on Saturday with the way they crumbled at home to Southend after going 1-0 down back during that run.

Johnson made errors early on, but was not helped by circumstances of the time. He has since corrected those errors and then some, as shown by the form over the last 23 games. I repeat, 23 games. That is not some piffling little purple patch, it is half a season.

He now has to congratulate the players on turning it around and making the fans proud of the team again, and tell them to enjoy their break. For once, they have earned it.

Then the real challenge comes. He has to get us through pre-season and off to the next campaign at a gallop. No City manager in recent times has managed that, but then again how many have transformed an unfit, under-performing squad into an effective unit of athletes that produces results in such a short time?

All of the signs point to Johnson taking this team forward. When he took over, he spoke not of promotion, but of progress, and it is indisputable that progress has been made. You only need to look at the league table to see that.

Let's hope that we can get the right players in the summer and that our pre-season goes well; if it does then I'm sure we'll be seeing Gary Johnson's Bristol City near the top of that table next season

[RedRaw]

How many times will this misconception be repeated? The 'hand grenade' came DURING the run of nine successive defeats, not BEFORE it.

It occurred after the Southend game, the 4th game in the run, and there were another 4 league defeats plus the loss to Notts Country in the FA Cup before we beat Huddersfield.

Personally I think that the incident has been blown way out of proportion.

Good, thats good.......I like your style!

[i remember dickie rooks]

There are a lot of posts, from both those for and against GJ, that question the wisdom of the quality of the loan signings, and the fact that we have ended up with more or less the same players. Basically saying that the period was a mistake.

Another way of viewing it is as follows.

1. GJ accepts that he had a squad of players that he believed were good enough to get out of this division

2. Currently they were underperforming and complacent

3. How does he keep them, but turn them around so that they want to play for their club and salaries?

Answer - Replace them with some short-term, journeyman loan signings to prove that they cannot assume that they will get picked every week on name and past performances only. When they get the message that I will persist with loan signings until they get their a$$es out of gear, perhaps they will start performing and earn the right to their place. can then pick them on merit and dispense with the loans.

No transfer fees, squad becomes united (even if it is united against the manager for a while)

Result - We now have the same squad of players that we all thought were good enough for promotion, playing for the shirt and showing promotion form.

isn't this where every fan wanted to be when he took over?

[rumbellow]

There is a very simple truth and that is the behaviour of players at the club was spiralling out of control, Smashed pub windows, Player fights in town and the (never to be mentioned) night club incident, Which was and had to be the final straw.

There is a possibility of a custodial sentence for somebody involved in the unmentionable incident.

I for one thank GJ for his 'hand grenade' it's about time in football in general, That somebody stood up to the disgraceful behaviour of a few who imagine that because of their 'status' as footballers and high wages that they are above the law.

They are employed by the club, The fans who buy tickets, replica shirts and in other ways help to pay their wages and the club and fans deserve better. We are entitled to players and staff giving 100% in training and on the field and be fit and healthy. Seeing 'young men' blowing and knackered within 20 minutes is not acceptable.

I would rather have another season in this division, Than scrape promotion that would be completely unsustainable (as in previous seasons) considering the fitness levels in the championship, Hopefully the way things are going 'IF' we make it next season, Then fitness should'nt be a problem and with an injection of class, Things sould be more sustainable in a higher division.

[PhatWill]

The simple fact, as Madgers tables prove, is that since Johnson has been at City we are 5th in the 'form table'.

To have another 6 points and thus be in a play-off position now we would have had to be the top performing side in this league since Johnson has been at the club.

Quite simply anyone that thought it was a reasonable expectation (Robbored) for a new manager to come in in September and turn a side that was 23rd in the league into one that would finish as the top performing team and thus finish in a play-off place should be flogged.

Idiotic expectations like that aren't going to help BCFC one bit.

[Bristol Boy]

Our run of defeats was caused by a mixture of misguided team selection (as he wasn't fully familiar with his players), loan signings made out of panic (and from a presumably limited pool of available players), poor morale (which detoriated with each loss), injuries and of course, the effect on the squad of a certain night in Romeo Brown's.

Or as I put it, mistakes and an event beyone his control

The key point that we all need to consider when evluating his time in charge thus far, and when considering our chances of further progress next season is this: Are we likely to experience such a run of defeats under Johnson again? Personally, I think no. I don't think circumstances are likely to conspire against us in such a manner, and I'm also completely confident that Johnson now has the trust and backing of the entire playing staff; compare the way they bounced back from a goal down on Saturday with the way they crumbled at home to Southend after going 1-0 down back during that run.

I hope it wouldn't happen again.......to anyone and it never did before, even when we were on our way from Div 1 to Div 4 in consequecutive seasons!

He now has to congratulate the players on turning it around and making the fans proud of the team again, and tell them to enjoy their break. For once, they have earned it.

And weigh them!!...........to ensure they don't enjoy it to much!

Then the real challenge comes. He has to get us through pre-season and off to the next campaign at a gallop.

Agreed.That will be the real test.

All of the signs point to Johnson taking this team forward. When he took over, he spoke not of promotion, but of progress, and it is indisputable that progress has been made. You only need to look at the league table to see that.

Agreed

Let's hope that we can get the right players in the summer and that our pre-season goes well; if it does then I'm sure we'll be seeing Gary Johnson's Bristol City near the top of that table next season

From your mouth to Gods ears, Sir!

There are a lot of posts, from both those for and against GJ, that question the wisdom of the quality of the loan signings, and the fact that we have ended up with more or less the same players. Basically saying that the period was a mistake.

Another way of viewing it is as follows.

1. GJ accepts that he had a squad of players that he believed were good enough to get out of this division

2. Currently they were underperforming and complacent

3. How does he keep them, but turn them around so that they want to play for their club and salaries?

Answer - Replace them with some short-term, journeyman loan signings to prove that they cannot assume that they will get picked every week on name and past performances only. When they get the message that I will persist with loan signings until they get their a$$es out of gear, perhaps they will start performing and earn the right to their place. can then pick them on merit and dispense with the loans.

If it was as deeply psychological as that then fair play to GJ............I don't think that was the case and believe he, like the rest of us, is human and he made some genuine mistakes that I hope he won't repeat!

[LSR]

It does slightly confuse me when people tout the 'hand grenade' incident as the reason we have {all but} missed out on the play-offs. I understand the logic people are short sightedly employing, this being failing to pick up any points in the subsequent 4 game period cost us a play-off place.

In a respect this is of course true, it is as true as saying if we had beat Doncaster, MK Dons or Colchester, picked up any points from Huddersfield, Swansea or Bournemouth away under Tinnion, as true as saying converting any draw under GJ or any loss into points would have bolstered our chances.

The issue here is that people are, understandably, allowing our outstanding form and unmistakable progression to blind them in regards to the big picture. Or perhaps rather allowing themselves to captalise on the clubs current status as 'best team' over the past half season in order to make unfounded claims that we were play-off bound.

In order for us to suggest GJ has blown our play-off chances, surely we must acknowledge the outstanding job he has done in getting us so close. I would suggest that if we had mathematically confirmed our League 1 status only a week or so ago, people would write this season off as a rebuilidng one and view the 'hand grenade' as a necessary tool, rather than a season spoiler.

I forget the post I saw it on the other day, but someone had stated that they would have 'chewed their arm off' for 20th place over xmas, and now we are 9th. A very good point and one that encapsulated the feeling of the fans at a time when this club was in a state of turmoil.

Therefore the question needs to be asked;

If we were now languishing in relative safety around 14th place, having displayed inconsistent form whilst picking up enough points to ensure our safety, would fans write this season off as a rebuilding one with all talk of the hand grenade being 'the shake up that was needed' rather than 'the act that ruined our season'?

After all, it appears to be the general concensus on here that a crop of new players are needed in order for us to mount a challenge next year, so surely what that points to is the outstanding job GJ has done in amassing only 4 defeats in 23 games, only losing 1 game in our last 11 and winning 6 of our last 7.

What this points to is that GJ is very much a victim of his own success. Getting us so close to the play-offs through making us the best team in this division over the course of half a season has caused fans to once again inflate expectations whilst, in sharp contradiction, claim that we need to recruit players in the summer to achieve anything next season.

As I put forward asked in a previous post, unless people are openly admitting that Gary Johnson is a far superior manager to Brian Tinnion, which presumably is the case as there was no indication we were play-off/promotion bound under BT, on the contrary; played 7, won 1, drawn 3, lost 3, for 7, against 14, then I fail to see how anyone can suggest we have done poorly not to make the play-offs.

WELL WORTHE URL IT WAS WRITEN ON!

[RedZepperin]

I fail to see how anyone can suggest we have done poorly not to make the play-offs.

No-one, absolutely no-one, on this forum (despite what they might write) genuinely believes that we have done poorly under Gary Johnson to not make the play-offs.

[Maltshoveller]

The grenade long term will be

the best thing to happen to this club

For to many years players have had it easy

For years CITY have played good football

but were always a soft touch

Hopefully under GJ the players will

show a lot more bottle

[grifty]

surely on the 8th of december when we were bottom of the league, and were offered finishing in the top half and city fan would have taken it in an instant.

now to moan/complain/blame on GJ that this 'hand grenade' has ruined our chances of play offs baffles me

now let me get this straight; this 'hand grenade brigade people or whoever they are' honestly believe that we would be in the play offs now if GJ had no done it?

i personally couldn't quite see tinman as the type of manager who would fly of the handle during half-time. Perhaps this is why the players seemingly lost confidence in him and did not play to their full ability, which we are beginning to see now.

this 'hand grenade' may have given the younger players a bit of a fright and the older players a kick up the backside. Perhaps this is the reason why we have been seeing arguably carey's best football of his career, a huge improvement of woodman and orr, cotts playing with more passion/pace/excitement, brooks leading from the front and a general improvement on the pitch and off.

However, a few of the more seasoned pros (phillips, bridges, stewart) did not agree with this out burst which is why their attitudes have not been the best.

This is why GJ has dropped/ got rid of these players as he wants the players who play under him to be passionate and have the right attitude: which is what we want to see too. It has nothing to do with the players not giving a stuff about the club; thats rubbish; phillips is not used to being dropped and that is the supposed reason why he is disgruntled, but his attitude was still not the type of thing GJ wants - and i bet phillips regrets that now. Bridges and Stewart may not have the high workrate GJ seems to want from players - but they did try, it didnt come off, never mind - all part of football and it will happen again (not too many time though i hope!)

i personally think GJ has done a brilliant job after that dodgy stage , and we will as usual have the pre-season optimism which i love this forum for at the beginning of the season

up the city

[havanatopia]

Superb original post by Jimmy and then by Gazareth.

GJ does not do things in half measures, The rollicking, at the time and today in my view was spot on and was well overdue.

I suggest anyone who wishes to criticise Gary Johnson goes to the following link before doing so and think seriously again...

http://www.leaguemanagers.com/awards/tissot-league.html

He is the best performing manager as you will see over current period - bar none of 92 - if this does not silence the pathetic moaners then clearly nothing will.

Congratulations Gary. Keep up the fantastic work.

[Chappers]

It's certainly been an unusual season. We suffer the worst run in the history of City, start picking one of the worst forwards ever to play for City, then go on an astoundingly successful run. It just makes you wonder what will happen next season!

[Pete1975Legend]

To be fair to GJ the real fans of BCFC have been fully behind him, even during the bad run he was there at the supporters trust event and spoke to everyone open and honestly. As someone said previously he had to bring in loan signings to make people realise that there places were under threat.

Obviousl some of those have not come off i.e. Youga and Savage but what about Fontaine, McCammon, Noble and Basso 4 extremly talented players.

We have also witnessed a rebirth of Carey, Woodman and Orr has been the most improved player and when you see the likes of LW wanting to talk contracts you know things are moving in the right direction.

We have been very lucky to get a manager like GJ and praise must go to the board for getting him and the most impressive part of this has been how comitted he is to making BCFC the giant of the west country.

He has united the fans, players and the management and the only way we are going is up, so to GJ I big thank you should go out from all BCFC fans.

[Dinky Gems]

He has united the fans, players and the management and the only way we are going is up, so to GJ I big thank you should go out from all BCFC fans.

Great Post Pete, I couldnt agree more with your sentiment. I'm behind GJ and the team all the way. They've turned things around this season. xxx

[Port Said Red]

Another factor in the poor run could have been GJ's fitness drive. Stamina training almost always has a draining effect to begin with, before the benefits kick in when the body adapts. If the players had been fitter after pre-season this may have been averted.

No-one can doubt their fitness levels now. To show the determination and persistence required to apply that pressure in the second half on Monday coming after Saturdays game, just would not have happened at anytime during the Tinnion reign IMO.

[Maesknoll Red]

How many times will this misconception be repeated? The 'hand grenade' came DURING the run of nine successive defeats, not BEFORE it.

It occurred after the Southend game, the 4th game in the run, and there were another 4 league defeats plus the loss to Notts Country in the FA Cup before we beat Huddersfield.

Personally I think that the incident has been blown way out of proportion. Managers yell at their players all of the time. They do it because sometimes you need to yell at people. Sure, sometimes you need to take the softly-softly approach, and by all accounts our esteemed manager does that as well. Hell, most of the players acknowledge that the reason for their improved performance in the second half on Saturday was down to Johnson giving them a rocket in the arse at half-time.

Our run of defeats was caused by a mixture of misguided team selection (as he wasn't fully familiar with his players), loan signings made out of panic (and from a presumably limited pool of available players), poor morale (which detoriated with each loss), injuries and of course, the effect on the squad of a certain night in Romeo Brown's.

"Loan signings made out of panic" - I very much doubt that GJ is a man that easily panics, I would be much more convinced that the loan players were brought in to, a) To prove to some squad members that they weren't indispensible and, b) To do a job, that obviously proved difficult in the rapid changes in attitude and culture that were being brought in. (Especially for the young players, even those from the Prem, who had little or no first team experience)

[i remember dickie rooks]

"Loan signings made out of panic" - I very much doubt that GJ is a man that easily panics, I would be much more convinced that the loan players were brought in to, a) To prove to some squad members that they weren't indispensible and, b) To do a job, that obviously proved difficult in the rapid changes in attitude and culture that were being brought in. (Especially for the young players, even those from the Prem, who had little or no first team experience)

Obviousl some of those have not come off i.e. Youga and Savage but what about Fontaine, McCammon, Noble and Basso 4 extremly talented players.

My point is, perhaps they were not in panic, or meant to come off. The impact to certain players of being replaced with an obviously inferior loan player may have been what was intended !!

[jgsmuzzy]

What a great thread, thanks guys! Made for good lunchtime reading!

COME ON CITY, forget next season, let's do it this one (ever the optomist!)

[Show Me The Money!]

My point is, perhaps they were not in panic, or meant to come off. The impact to certain players of being replaced with an obviously inferior loan player may have been what was intended !!

Bas Savage inferior?

To who?