Win Or Entertain

[Chivs]

I wonder what the general opinion is concerning the "win or entertain" debate that is highlighted by an apparently poor display against Orient.

I have lost count of the times that people on here have said "well, we won, what more do you want?". Many people think that 3 points is all that matters. Many think that if promotion comes at the cost of entertainment then so be it.

For my part, I do not want to win promotion through "hoof-it" football, or defensive block-outs.

I would prefer to stay in this division and watch us play entertaining football.

Why is this?

Well consider this: we get promoted playing "ugly football", then in two years time we threaten the Championship play-offs still playing ugly football. When do you think that it will dawn on you that you're not actually enjoying going to Ashton Gate? That the "ugly football" is just that? After the first promotion, in the playoffs, by the time we get to the Premiership?

I want to see wingers running at the fullbacks. I want to see triangles and step-overs and volleys. I want to see reverse passes and great control and back heels. I also want to see us win. I appreciate that sometimes you just have to "play ugly". C'est la vie. But this should be the exception not the norm.

So, if there has to be a choice, I prefer to see us playing entertaining football to winning promotion playing ugly.

Which way do you want us to go?

[somered]

Preferably both, but I will take any win and hopefully promotion as I think most fans of any club would.

[Tom Fleuriot]

Preferably both, but I will take any win and hopefully promotion as I think most fans of any club would.

When I can't make it to matches, I'll take the win. When I'm there, I'll have the free-flowing football.

[Cider Red Sam]

Think I'd take ugly football at the moment. Anything to get us out of this hell-hole of a division and playing the same teams year in year out! Think just the change of scenery if we got promoted would be entertaining enough, and with the risk of coming straight back down, if the ugly football meant we'd survive in the championship then I'd settle for that. However, if we ever establish ourselves in the championship, then I'd like us to play entertaining football, as we'd be playing at what most people would perceive as roughly the right level for our club, and anything above being a midtable championship side would be over achieveing.

Summary...

Ugly winning football until City fulfil their potential as an established championship side.

[WTFiGO!?!]

I wonder what the general opinion is concerning the "win or entertain" debate that is highlighted by an apparently poor display against Orient.

I have lost count of the times that people on here have said "well, we won, what more do you want?". Many people think that 3 points is all that matters. Many think that if promotion comes at the cost of entertainment then so be it.

For my part, I do not want to win promotion through "hoof-it" football, or defensive block-outs.

I would prefer to stay in this division and watch us play entertaining football.

Why is this?

Well consider this: we get promoted playing "ugly football", then in two years time we threaten the Championship play-offs still playing ugly football. When do you think that it will dawn on you that you're not actually enjoying going to Ashton Gate? That the "ugly football" is just that? After the first promotion, in the playoffs, by the time we get to the Premiership?

I want to see wingers running at the fullbacks. I want to see triangles and step-overs and volleys. I want to see reverse passes and great control and back heels. I also want to see us win. I appreciate that sometimes you just have to "play ugly". C'est la vie. But this should be the exception not the norm.

So, if there has to be a choice, I prefer to see us playing entertaining football to winning promotion playing ugly.

Which way do you want us to go?

For me putting BRISTOL CITY on the Footballing map is the priorety. I am a Bristolian long before I am a fan of the Beautiful Game after all. If pure Footballing excellence were what I was after I'd never have gone down to Ashton Gate in my life, Sky Sports would be the way forward.

Bigger away crows, bigger games, greater nationwide recognition, away trips to places like Elland Road and the Molineaux are all far more appealing than rubbing shoulders with Cheltenham and S****horpe and visiting places like Brisbane Road and Griffen Park.

By whatever means we climb the ladder the chances of improved Football are greatly incresed. We'd have increased revenue, attract better players and be more likely to keep hold of talented players we have had such as David Cotterill.

As it is, we're stuck in this Godforsaken dump which has never been a place for the Football purests and if we escape it through scraping out enough points for promotion by 30 odd repeats of last night then I certainly wouldn't be complaining.

...

Also, at most levels of the game winning is the important thing not entertainment. Managers and players would value characteristics such as resiliance and determination as highly or higher than ability to play free flowing cavaliar Football, this is another problem for the professional game as an entertainment industry.

To finish of, using the Merseyside derby last Weekend, which of the Club's went home happiest of the two Footballing philosophies?

[Ashcott Boy]

I want to see wingers running at the fullbacks. I want to see triangles and step-overs and volleys. I want to see reverse passes and great control and back heels. I also want to see us win. I appreciate that sometimes you just have to "play ugly". C'est la vie. But this should be the exception not the norm.

If you want to see all of that i really suggest you start supporting someone else in the Prem. Everyone would like to see entertaining football and IMO we have a squad capable of that but at the moment confidence is low and we are grinding out results. I really do think that Brooker and Orr coming back will give us a huge lift ahead of the Port Vale game and both players will want to impress and make it up to the fans, especially Orr after his red card.

So for now I'm happy to grind out 'ugly' victories but i do believe we will see better quality football before the seasons out.

[theoldfirstdivision]

Of course you want to win with some style, but some games just have to be won. 46 games...it's a long slog. There are going all the usual highs, lows and scrambled wins.

The team has had so many problems lately that it's amazing they've won 3 out of 4.

The bloke who had a word with GJ sums up why it's so difficult to do well at this club. There are fans who think we should be too good for this league and should play like Barcelona every week.

[Luke_Ciderhead]

I see no reason why we cant have both with this team to be honest.

But for the sake of the thread:

First and foremost, as a Bristol City fan I want us to WIN FOOTBALL MATCHES. Surely thats what we part with our hard earned cash to see at the end of the day? I don't want to see us play pretty football and lose, I want to cheer goals and leave Ashton Gate with a smile on my face....which despite a pretty dross performance last night, I did.

[RedTop]

I want to see wingers running at the fullbacks. I want to see triangles and step-overs and volleys. I want to see reverse passes and great control and back heels. I also want to see us win. I appreciate that sometimes you just have to "play ugly". C'est la vie. But this should be the exception not the norm.

If you had gone to Northampton, or Tranmere for that matter, you would have seen plenty of this. I think Gary J is trying to play good football. It happened for the first 45 minutes against Orient but for some reason some people only seem to be able to remember the second half.

However, I remember years ago when we got beaten by Walsall in the play-offs that I vowed I did not care how we did it, I want to get promotion out of this poxy division and I was prepared to sacrifice some of the pretty play for the thrill and ecstasy of enjoying promotion rather than watching the other team celebrate it. I stand by that. However, I think people are being rather unfair because from what I've seen so far we are trying to play football. It's going on the ground rather than being humped upfield and missing out midfield. Yes, sometimes it's not effective. And yes, sometimes you have to abandon it to dig in and get the points as we did in the second half yesterday.

But how people can abuse Gary Johnson as he's leaving the pitch after we've won a game and played decent football for at least half of it, when two of our best players are in jail, Showunmi was borderline fit and Noble had to go off with a knock is beyond me.

[rayer]

To answer the question, you have to look at both ends of the extreme spectrum of it which would be entertaining football in the conference or ugly football in the Premiership.

Not really a tough choice ?

[cider head]

it's nice to have both but i'd take a win everytime.

[Chivs]

Interesting thoughts on this one. Generally, people are preferring winning to playing well which suggests there are a lot of happy people at the moment.

I think that Cider Red Sam perhaps has the best approach:

Ugly winning football until City fulfil their potential as an established championship side.

[cider head]

Interesting thoughts on this one. Generally, people are preferring winning to playing well which suggests there are a lot of happy people at the moment.

I think that Cider Red Sam perhaps has the best approach:

i wouldn't say happy, more relief that comes to mind

[Guest North Street]

I want attractive football, 89/90, 4-4-2, you score one City score two, wingers , attacking full backs, goal scoring midfield players. City have always been more West Ham rather than Wimbledon. City are artisans, it is what has always set us apart from the loathsome uncultured true football hating savages Amoebas of Whorefield who thought having Devon White & Christain McClean was ok.We are better than just winning and bollocks to the style or are we simply accepting the ends justifys the means.Not so long ago we had a winning team with Bas Savage leading the line in his unique style, i admired his effort but he should have been playing for the Gas who traditionally employ players who can run miles but possess virtually no finesse.

Anybody remember Jordan bad vibing Beck due to his win at all means public abortion of a team?

[CiderHider]

Without question, Win.

Simply becuase i don't find league 1 entertaining.

What about play 5h1t and lose? Now that would suck.

[tinman-is-god]

I would prefer to stay in this division and watch us play entertaining football.

Although i respect your opinion, that statement is something i will never be able to understand. Winning is what matters in sport, if we went up playing like Watford when they did, i would be delighted. Who cares how you win, its the winning that matters.

[bh_red]

Think I'd take ugly football at the moment. Anything to get us out of this hell-hole of a division and playing the same teams year in year out! Think just the change of scenery if we got promoted would be entertaining enough, and with the risk of coming straight back down, if the ugly football meant we'd survive in the championship then I'd settle for that. However, if we ever establish ourselves in the championship, then I'd like us to play entertaining football, as we'd be playing at what most people would perceive as roughly the right level for our club, and anything above being a midtable championship side would be over achieveing.

Summary...

Ugly winning football until City fulfil their potential as an established championship side.

spot on...........right now Winning games and getting out of this damn league is so important, there is only so many seasons you can get motivated for a home game against Blackpool, Chesterfield and Brentford

[Tunley Legend]

I personally (and I know I am in the minority) go down primarily to see good football. However, it is fair to say that the football should be better in the Championship. But that said, I have watched some right carp Championship football on telly so far this season.

[RedTop]

I would prefer to stay in this division and watch us play entertaining football.

Chivs...one additional entertaining thought...

Can you imagine what the response would be if SteveL happened to agree with you and said this in public.

The more I think about it, though, the more I do not want any more feelings like the one I had at the Millennium Stadium after the play-off final. I love watching us play the game the right way, and in GJ I think we have a manager who understands that we expect a certain style of football, but when it comes down to it, if it had taken an ugly win and a ball bobbling in off the shin of a Brighton defender who'd been blatantly pushed by one of our strikers to win that play-off final, I'd have bitten your hand off.

[rayer]

Ohhh the brighton playoff game, don't bring that up, such bad memories. Started off with an accidental gay bar visit, ended with a coach full of crying fans.

[Dolman_Dave]

The main reason that people were so worked up last night was because it looked very likely that we would NOT win the game AND the football (in the second half) was awful. Tactically we did all we could to give Orient a chance to at least draw the game, handing them a penalty and giving them 45 mins of possession to try and break us down and grab an equalizer.

If we played crap but always looked like we would win then fair enough, I would take that any day of the week. Myself and many others feared the worst however - its not as if we haven't seen it all before. That 4 mins of injury time was agonizing.

[RedTop]

The main reason that people were so worked up last night was because it looked very likely that we would NOT win the game AND the football (in the second half) was awful. Tactically we did all we could to give Orient a chance to at least draw the game, handing them a penalty and giving them 45 mins of possession to try and break us down and grab an equalizer.

If we played crap but always looked like we would win then fair enough, I would take that any day of the week. Myself and many others feared the worst however - its not as if we haven't seen it all before. That 4 mins of injury time was agonizing.

I just can't understand why people were so worked up. They seem to have forgotten that we played 45 minutes of excellent football DESPITE the fact that GJ and the team were effectively playing with one hand tied behind their back. Our first choice right back and our top striker are unavailable, Showunmi was playing at about 75 per cent if that and was so knackered by illness that he was too tired to even celebrate his goal, and Noble was forced off before the game was half an hour old. It's a miracle we played as well as we did, frankly.

Add to that the fact that our first goal was superbly worked with some beautiful touches, some individual trickery and some wonderful passing to make the chance, the fact that when you look at the replay of the penalty decision it looks distinctly dodgy to me and the fact that we did actually win the game and surely people have to put this into some sort of perspective.

On top of that, the team were playing for each other and never lacked effort. If you have access to BCFC World, play the highlights and look again at the number of last-ditch tackles that went in to stop shots or nick the ball off Orient players. That wouldn't have happened a year or so ago. The win away from home at Northampton with ten men - a game full of beautiful passing football from City - is another example of how these lads are rolling up their sleeves and getting on with the job. In the face of adversity, which is what they have been facing since their team-mates got themselves jailed, they have won two out of three games (three out of the last four in total). In the circumstances, I'd be happy if they managed it by hook or by crook, but they've actually tried to do it by playing football. Sometimes they've succeeded, and sometimes they've failed - though they were unlucky not to get a point at Tranmere. But they'll get no criticism from me as long as they give it 100 per cent and keep on going.

Stop getting on their backs and give them some bloody support.

[RedM]

Chivs...one additional entertaining thought...

Can you imagine what the response would be if SteveL happened to agree with you and said this in public.

The more I think about it, though, the more I do not want any more feelings like the one I had at the Millennium Stadium after the play-off final. I love watching us play the game the right way, and in GJ I think we have a manager who understands that we expect a certain style of football, but when it comes down to it, if it had taken an ugly win and a ball bobbling in off the shin of a Brighton defender who'd been blatantly pushed by one of our strikers to win that play-off final, I'd have bitten your hand off.

This could be summed up by someone who for many years I didn't like but somehow respect him now, Ian Holloway.

Didn't he explain it by using pulling birds and cups of coffee?

Wise man that Holloway if you think about it!

[rayer]

was that the one where you go out to pull a bird, you end up trying all night, and end up with an ugly one, but you got here in the cab to go home with and thats a result

[lotusman]

The question is'nt as strightforward as it seems and the answer is far from simple.

20 years ago Wimbledon pioneered a style that took them all the way to the Premiership and Cup finals (real ones).By nature of winning regularly there were elements of entertainment within their style of play and to win even in the "ugly" fashion they had to have sufficient quality in key functions of the game.They actually created an impressive conveyor belt that propelled players out of the club for big fees and helped the club survive in the top-flite against all the odds.

At times there is a need to win at all costs,Orient perhaps was such a situation.Having had more defeats than wins self doubt,ebbing confidence,were becoming rife,the pre-season hype and expectation long gone along with G.J.'s honeymoon period.But,playing ugly week in ,week out , is no gaurantee of winning,sure against Orient who most observers claim are one of the poorest clubs in the division it worked.

When 3 points for a win was introduced most managers were smart enough to do the maths,away from home especially that one win is a great reward.If you are too restrictive in your tactical selections then be careful for Pulisite soccer emerges.Many on this forum will remember this brings both fewer defeats but alas few wins either.....

A year on G.J. still has to find the formula of style,entertainment ,and success.

[Chappers]

Our first choice right back and our top striker are unavailable, Showunmi was playing at about 75 per cent if that and was so knackered by illness that he was too tired to even celebrate his goal, and Noble was forced off before the game was half an hour old. It's a miracle we played as well as we did, frankly.

Lets look at this the other way - We ONLY had TWO players unavailable, so we ended up playing a half fit striker, and played scrappily. Does that not worry anyone for when we have injuries and suspensions?

As for Noble, I think we might just have enough cover in central midfield!!!

[SimplyRed]

I just can't understand why people were so worked up. They seem to have forgotten that we played 45 minutes of excellent football DESPITE the fact that GJ and the team were effectively playing with one hand tied behind their back. Our first choice right back and our top striker are unavailable, Showunmi was playing at about 75 per cent if that and was so knackered by illness that he was too tired to even celebrate his goal, and Noble was forced off before the game was half an hour old. It's a miracle we played as well as we did, frankly.

Add to that the fact that our first goal was superbly worked with some beautiful touches, some individual trickery and some wonderful passing to make the chance, the fact that when you look at the replay of the penalty decision it looks distinctly dodgy to me and the fact that we did actually win the game and surely people have to put this into some sort of perspective.

On top of that, the team were playing for each other and never lacked effort. If you have access to BCFC World, play the highlights and look again at the number of last-ditch tackles that went in to stop shots or nick the ball off Orient players. That wouldn't have happened a year or so ago. The win away from home at Northampton with ten men - a game full of beautiful passing football from City - is another example of how these lads are rolling up their sleeves and getting on with the job. In the face of adversity, which is what they have been facing since their team-mates got themselves jailed, they have won two out of three games (three out of the last four in total). In the circumstances, I'd be happy if they managed it by hook or by crook, but they've actually tried to do it by playing football. Sometimes they've succeeded, and sometimes they've failed - though they were unlucky not to get a point at Tranmere. But they'll get no criticism from me as long as they give it 100 per cent and keep on going.

Stop getting on their backs and give them some bloody support.

Gosh, you could almost imagine those words flowing freely from the mouth of Johnson or Lansdown himself...

The point is, they shouldn't have NEEDED to make the last ditch tackles, backs against the wall, all hands to the pump performance in the 2nd half.

We should've been out of sight before Orient ever got near scoring. Or are you saying the poor dears weren't 100% fit and couldn't quite keep it up for the whole game? And, of course, we were also missing our top players... ermm... what about the so-called strength in depth and competition for places?

Time and again, Johnson's tactics and organisation are found wanting, especially in the 2nd period. We conceded a penalty and promptly fell to pieces and panicked.

Johnson's tinkering with the team using the, now trademark, baffling substitutions only made things worse. Orient were a poor, poor side and the only reason they caused us so much trouble was because we let them see we were rattled by the pen. We were at HOME, and we even had a back FIVE, and we STILL tried to time-waste in the corners - pathetic!

As for waxing lyrical about the Northampton game, I can counter that with the tripe that was served up against Blackpool. Here's a team who have only won 1 game (against us) all season and scored seven(?) goals (four of them against us!).

So if you don't mind, I'll continue getting on Johnson's back until he puts out a team that can play consistently for 90 minutes - perhaps even 3 or 4 games back to back? (or is that too much to ask of a 'promotion-chasing' team?) - and lives up to the hype.

[PhatWill]

So if you don't mind, I'll continue getting on Johnson's back until he puts out a team that can play consistently for 90 minutes - perhaps even 3 or 4 games back to back? (or is that too much to ask of a 'promotion-chasing' team?) - and lives up to the hype.

I mind. Why don't you just get MUTV and start following Man U if you want to be entertained.

Seeing as you only go to home games I was wondering if you could enlighten me as to how many we've lost at home in our last 15 under Johnson? Must be a very high number given your attitude towards our manager.

[Redtilldead]

I mind. Why don't you just get MUTV and start following Man U if you want to be entertained.

Seeing as you only go to home games I was wondering if you could enlighten me as to how many we've lost at home in our last 15 under Johnson? Must be a very high number given your attitude towards our manager.

So working on your theory, if you want to watch football and be entertained don't watch the City??

and it's irrelevant how many we have won or lost it's the way we are playing that people on here are talking about. Finally will people on here please stop telling other City fans to go watch Man u, Gas whoever because they have a different point of view.

[REDOXO]

I wonder what the general opinion is concerning the "win or entertain" debate that is highlighted by an apparently poor display against Orient.

I have lost count of the times that people on here have said "well, we won, what more do you want?". Many people think that 3 points is all that matters. Many think that if promotion comes at the cost of entertainment then so be it.

For my part, I do not want to win promotion through "hoof-it" football, or defensive block-outs.

I would prefer to stay in this division and watch us play entertaining football.

Why is this?

Well consider this: we get promoted playing "ugly football", then in two years time we threaten the Championship play-offs still playing ugly football. When do you think that it will dawn on you that you're not actually enjoying going to Ashton Gate? That the "ugly football" is just that? After the first promotion, in the playoffs, by the time we get to the Premiership?

I want to see wingers running at the fullbacks. I want to see triangles and step-overs and volleys. I want to see reverse passes and great control and back heels. I also want to see us win. I appreciate that sometimes you just have to "play ugly". C'est la vie. But this should be the exception not the norm.

So, if there has to be a choice, I prefer to see us playing entertaining football to winning promotion playing ugly.

Which way do you want us to go?

To Win or Entertain?

Win WIN WWWIIIINNNN

I really really don't care ìf we play the ugliest football known in the history of ugly football...My support of this football club is completely independent of the good the bad and the ugly...

Watching Chesterfield/Wrexham/Hartlepool and any number of crap football clubs season after season...Now that is ######ing ugly.

I think getting real might be called for in some quarters....Teams routinely get promoted from this division playing route one football....Its the third division for the love of god accept the fact that is what we watch every ######ing week and our ability NOT to hurt opponents by being a bit ugly has kept us where we are...So anybody who tells me they would somehow like to watch us attacking teams down the flanks and playing champaigne football not to get promoted at the end of the season...Please go and grow up somewhere else...I'm sure there would be space for you at the Mem