Are We Too Critical?

[bobby]

So are we? We are 2nd in the league, been on an excellent run, but a couple of poor results suddenly mean we should change everything?

We create loads of chances, our defence is best in division and other managers seem to think we are good and stand an excellent chance of going up.

But we the "fans" criticise the team and the manager after the last two games.

Don't know if others have noticed, but during our winning run, some forum members were really quiet, didn't hear from them at all. Then suddenly we lose to Weds and draw at home, and back they come with their criticisms of players and manager, doom, gloom and dispair.

Why weren't they around on here admitting the team was doing well and the manager must have been doing something right?

When I criticse, then someone proves me wrong I'm prepared to acknowledge it, so wy can't some of you - (you know who you are).

I have backed Peacock but can see that he is on a poor run at the moment and could do with a spell on the bench

I have criticised Micky Bell, but think he did enough on Sat to justify a start on the left ahead of Woody.

We have a good team/squad/manager, we are still in a good position (2nd) and we can still get out of this poxy division. I'm all for discussion and voicing opinions, but sometimes just wish some could be a little more balanced!

[Guest Neo]

I can see the sentiment you are putting over, however, not sure there is much criticism as such.

If you take the case of Peacock, I have only really seen people saying he needs to take his turn on the bench. After a 7(?) goal barren spell, I don't think that is critical to expect this; most teams would try something different.

Lita and Roberts are both waiting in the wings for a break and a majority of people are voicing a change should happen.

Yes, there are some posts along the lines of Peacock is kak, gives too many fouls away etc., surely that is just down to individual preferences; it is not mandatory to like or rate players just because they are in your team. I certainly have a few in that category myself.

This goes for the Manager too, who some people will never rate; to an extent I can see why. His tactics, team selections etc. at times are baffling. That said, he has to be doing something right. A lot of this is down to his whole managerial career so it will take a lot to change somebdoy's opinion in this respect.

I haven't seen any comments of late which are critical to the point of nonsense; normally these are shot down anyway.

Although I couldn't be arsed to go and have a look, I am sure even on the Man U forum you will see comments such as "why did Ferguson rest Tim Howard; his team selection of late is terrible" or "Van Nistelrooy is not producing his early season form and should be on the bench; Diego is doing well in the reserves, stick him in".

This could easily translate on here to "why did Wilson rest Tins; his team selection of late is terrible" or "Lee Peacock is not producing his early season form and should be on the bench; Robbo is doing well in the reserves, stick him in".

Let's face facts, as somebody suggested yesterday, it we didn't discuss teams, formations, new signings etc. we would be down to subjects like hair-styles, cars and loose women!

Second thoughts that actually sounds better

[Port Said Red]

My problem is with those for whom a bad game or two make's for a bad player and vice versa. It's unreasonable to expect players at almost any level to maintain a standard for 46 game's let alone in the second division.

I also have a problem with those who immediately put a bad game or run down to a lack of "passion", "Bottle" etc, IMO it's an easy criticism and difficult for a player to defend himself against.

[tompo]

My problem is with those for whom a bad game or two make's for a bad player and vice versa. It's unreasonable to expect players at almost any level to maintain a standard for 46 game's let alone in the second division.

I also have a problem with those who immediately put a bad game or run down to a lack of "passion", "Bottle" etc, IMO it's an easy criticism and difficult for a player to defend himself against.

Its funny that the team that played on Tuesday was largely the one that was selected by concensus of opinion on the forum.

Wilson and the team have had a lot of stick but I don't recall one person who posted what they thought the team should be coming on and saying they got it wrong.

[edson]

So are we? We are 2nd in the league, been on an excellent run, but a couple of poor results suddenly mean we should change everything?

No, it means we shouldn't rest on our laurels and be afraid to try alternatives. Just because we won a few games, doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement or other options which may help to freshen things up now.

We create loads of chances, our defence is best in division and other managers seem to think we are good and stand an excellent chance of going up.

I don't think many people would argue with that. We're second, so anyone who says we don't have an excellent chance of going up is a bit deluded.

But we the "fans" criticise the team and the manager after the last two games.

What's wrong with that? And why is fans in quotation marks? Are you suggesting that supporters should never question or be critical of anything, and anyone that does is not a supporter?

Don't know if others have noticed, but during our winning run, some forum members were really quiet, didn't hear from them at all.  Then suddenly we lose to Weds and draw at home, and back they come with their criticisms of players and manager, doom, gloom and dispair.

Why weren't they around on here admitting the team was doing well and the manager must have been doing something right?

Maybe they didn't feel that the team was playing particularly well, but knew they'd be shot down in flames by the likes of you saying "we've won x number of games, what more do you want?", if they dared to voice concerns while we were winning. As you're doing that now, despite us only taking one point from the last six available, I'd suggest they were right to feel that way.

When I criticse, then someone proves me wrong I'm prepared to acknowledge it, so wy can't some of you - (you know who you are).

I guess not everyone is perfect like you.

I have backed Peacock but can see that he is on a poor run at the moment and could do with a spell on the bench

I have criticised Micky Bell, but think he did enough on Sat to justify a start on the left ahead of Woody.

I could quote you're opening sentence here, I suppose: "We are 2nd in the league, been on an excellent run, but a couple of poor results suddenly mean we should change everything?"

We have a good team/squad/manager, we are still in a good position (2nd) and we can still get out of this poxy division.  I'm all for discussion and voicing opinions, but sometimes just wish some could be a little more balanced!

I tend to find that a lot of people's views on here are balanced. I may not agree with them, but as long as they are put forward rationally, then I have no problem with that. It is, after all, what a forum is for.

I think what you're saying is 'Everyone should agree with me that the manager is brilliant'. To me, that isn't very balanced, but I respect it as your opinion.

[Port Said Red]

Its funny that the team that played on Tuesday was largely the one that was selected by concensus of opinion on the forum.

Wilson and the team have had a lot of stick but I don't recall one person who posted what they thought the team should be coming on and saying they got it wrong.

Agreed.

There's also the contradictions, Peacock and Miller are criticised for not supplying goals, Goodfellow scores 4 in quick time but is criticised for not contributing crosses, being left footed etc, sometimes I put it down to the ease of and speed that we can put our thoughts on this forum. A little self-censorship is needed at time's.

[bobby]

I guess not everyone is perfect like you.

I think what you're saying is 'Everyone should agree with me that the manager is brilliant'. To me, that isn't very balanced, but I respect it as your opinion.

Thanks Edson, knew I could rely on you to reply!

I'm not sure I ever suggested I was perfect but thanks for the compliment.

Equally I'm not sure I suggested our manager is brilliant, I said we have a good manager, which I believe we do. But I would and have questioned some of his tactics and decisions and supported others.

fans was in " " marks because I think some on here go well beyond offering reasonable criticism. I'm not suggesting fans shouldn't be critical or question things, just that some don't sound like fans when they come on here calling for the manager to be sacked, or certain players to be dropped, without any reasoning to what they are saying

Any critical comments made were aimed at a small minority sorry if that wound you up

anyway just my view, so counts for very little anyway

[TimmerD]

Just thought this might help - from Cambridge Dictionary:

"Definition

forum [show phonetics]

noun [C]

1 a situation or meeting in which people can talk about a problem or matter especially of public interest:

a forum for debate/discussion

2 in ancient Rome, the area in the middle of the town used for public business

3 a place on the Internet where people can leave messages or discuss particular subjects with other people at the same time:

Discussion forums are a way of contacting people with similar interests from all over the world."

Let the discussion flow!!!

[edson]

Thanks Edson, knew I could rely on you to reply!

I'm not sure I ever suggested I was perfect but thanks for the compliment.

No problem.

Equally I'm not sure I suggested our manager is brilliant, I said we have a good manager, which I believe we do.  But I would and have questioned some of his tactics and decisions and supported others.

As I said, I don't mind if you think the manager is brilliant, good, bad or indifferent. It is your opinion and one you are entitled to and one that I respect, just as others are entitled to voice their concerns as to his perceived shortcomings. Like I said before, as long as an opinion is rationalised, then it is fair enough, as far as I'm concerned. I think we possibly agree on that point.

fans was in " " marks because I think some on here go well beyond offering reasonable criticism.  I'm not suggesting fans shouldn't be critical or question things, just that some don't sound like fans when they come on here calling for the manager to be sacked, or certain players to be dropped, without any reasoning to what they are saying 

I think they are all fans, it's just that some are more hot-headed than others and jump in quickly when things aren't going as well as they'd hoped, but that's the nature of a community (which is what a forum is). There will be different characters who respond differently to different situations. Indeed, I don't doubt that there will be people who will post "I told you we should have sacked him" on here, if we fail to go up. But I think that the vast majority of posts on here are made with the interests of the club at heart, it's just that some are a little more misguided than others (but they are usually quite easy to spot and either shoot down or ignore).

I, along with a large percentage of others, have never called for the manager to be sacked (not that I think you are suggesting I have), as that would almost certainly do more harm than good, but, for what it's worth, I do find Danny a frustrating manager who seems to take an age to change the screamingly obvious. However, he is the manager and he will live or die by his decisions, so he has to do what he feels is best, as, ultimately, he will pay the price with his job, should we miss out on promotion again.

I also feel that Danny is somewhat aloof from the fans, and would do well to make himself a little more accessible. People are often less damning if they feel they know something about the person they are discussing and I don't think it would do him any harm to break down the 'him and us' feeling, which I currently feel is the case.

Let's face it, how many of us would say "I think you're selections are stupid", if we actually met him face to face or felt he read, cared about and responded to our concerns?

Anyway, I digress..

Any critical comments made were aimed at a small minority    sorry if that wound you up 

No, it didn't wind me up at all, I just felt it was, well, to use your topic title, 'too critical' of people who post their opinions on here, just because they don't coincide with your own at times.

I also saw a contradiction in your original posting, where you opened by saying:

"We are 2nd in the league, been on an excellent run, but a couple of poor results suddenly mean we should change everything?"

Only to go on and say:

"I have backed Peacock but can see that he is on a poor run at the moment and could do with a spell on the bench

I have criticised Micky Bell, but think he did enough on Sat to justify a start on the left ahead of Woody."

You seem to be suggesting changes, when you have opened by saying those people who ask for change are being too critical, but that may just be me misunderstanding your point.

anyway just my view, so counts for very little anyway 

Not at all, your view is as important as any other, that's why I'd ask that you are a little more understanding to those who do not have the same faith in the manager that you have.

[StapleHillPhil]

2 in ancient Rome, the area in the middle of the town used for public business

& if i'm not mistaken the burial site of old Ceasar (No, not Gus) himself. I believe that people leave flowers there to this day.

Hope that helps.

[One Team]

Are we too critical!? Not in the slightest!

Thats exactly what this forum is for.

We've rightly got high expectations this season and any deviation from our aim is up for debate.

I've said it countless times; anything less than promotion this season is a complete and total failure.

There is, however, a massive difference between being critical on this forum and barracking the manager and players at the game.

One Team

[bobby]

thanks Edson, I'll try and respond:

"Like I said before, as long as an opinion is rationalised, then it is fair enough, as far as I'm concerned. I think we possibly agree on that point."

Yes we do

"But I think that the vast majority of posts on here are made with the interests of the club at heart, it's just that some are a little more misguided than others (but they are usually quite easy to spot and either shoot down or ignore)."

Fair point and I agree

"I also feel that Danny is somewhat aloof from the fans, and would do well to make himself a little more accessible. People are often less damning if they feel they know something about the person they are discussing and I don't think it would do him any harm to break down the 'him and us' feeling, which I currently feel is the case."

Interesting point and I think I agree - but I guess that is just different people's management style. But yes, would do him some good if he could be more accessible to the fans. Maybe as an example - I thought with the brilliant following we had at Sheffield Weds and the support the city fans showed for Danny on the day, we might have got a comment from him in interviews or in the programme for the Wycombe game, but nothing. Just a thought!

"No, it didn't wind me up at all, I just felt it was, well, to use your topic title, 'too critical' of people who post their opinions on here, just because they don't coincide with your own at times."

Fair point, but maybe I was playing devil's advocate and raising the debate as that is what the forum is for?

"You seem to be suggesting changes, when you have opened by saying those people who ask for change are being too critical, but that may just be me misunderstanding your point."

OK, but was entering into the debate anyway about making some changes without suggesting the need for wholesale change at the moment. Just one or two who are obviously operating below par.

"Not at all, your view is as important as any other, that's why I'd ask that you are a little more understanding to those who do not have the same faith in the manager that you have."

I promise to try, if some others try and have a little more faith in our manager

(geez I wish I could work out how to do those multiple quotes IT training needed)

[december 1963]

Don't wish to interfere with the conversation Edson and bobby are enjoying. But as to the question - are we too critical? - I take "we" to mean those people who call themselves a Bristol City supporters whether a part timer, glory hunter, haven't missed a match since 1915 or whatever. I don't know if we are TOO critical but Bristolians are fed up with under achievement, that's what lies at the root of the problem.

Bristol, when I was living there, had 500,000 people and a Division 4 team. The club slogs its guts out and occasionally gets to Division 1. When I was kid we had just arrived out of Div 2 and stayed in Div 1 for a long time. I wanted us to get into the top division but compared with the last 10 years I'd take under achievement in Div 1 again.

Bristolians are proud of their city and they are offered no sensible explanation about why the team has spent 4 years in the top division since about 1910 and has one FA cup losing appearance to its name, whilst Fulham, Wimbledon, Barnsley, Oldham, Southampton and Norwich have all been up there in recent years and teams like Crewe and Walsall stay in Division 1.

It makes no sense as to why City or Rovers have not been higher than Div 2 for much of their existence. But criticism isn't a new phenomenon - a captain from a 1950s team said that playing at Ashton Gate was like playing in fromt of a jury rather than set of supporters. It's not a Bristol thing, its an under achievement thing.

Also, those with longer memories (someone mentioned this in an earlier thread) recall that City often down the years seem to look listless against struggling teams. Against Wycombe, whether young or old, there was a sense of resignation - we've seen all this before even recently - Stockport and Colchester last year for instance - we've failed to achieve against teams like this.

Don't get me wrong, this could still be our year. Why not ? DW isn't the slightest bit weighed down by our past thank goodness. But Bristol deserves better and Bristol City supporters rightly think our club should be the West Country flag flyer.

That's why they moan, whinge and criticise. They don't want one year in Div 1 and then another 5 year slog to get back out again. They probably would like a white knight who will buy lots of success quickly. Down the years - and especially in the last decade - I have been careful not to moan, whinge and criticise but I do feel I understand where those that do are coming from.

This isn't Rochdale or S****horpe for goodness sake.

[bobby]

December 1963 - appreciate your comments and agree with your sentiment on this one.

Bristol is a city of 400,000 people and if you include the surrounding area then 1 million population. We have been underachieving, sport just doesn't seem to feature on people's agenda let alone football.

I think 2004 is supposedly the year of sport in bristol too!

[december 1963]

cheers bobby. If you take, say, the 1985-87 period you might be interested to recall that Middlesbrough had crowds of around 10-11,000 in those days whilst only 4,400 watched Bolton at Burnden Park, for a match against Bristol City. Those two went in search of their first major trophy on Sunday.

I may change my ID because today - we are about 6 or 7 places higher than we were in December 1963. But loyalties don't waver. I'm glad the next game is away. If Peterborough was anything to go by last month those 1,000 on Saturday will sing louder than the 3,000 Stockport supporters and will moan less than the 12,000 did against Wycombe

[Riaz]

City fans can be a little too-critical, but look at rovers, they only criticise when things are really bad and look where they are. I think that cos the fans expect higher standards thats what they get, we've got a winning mentality, where we want to win, which footballs all about at the end of the day!

[City Rocker]

Don't wish to interfere with the conversation Edson and bobby are enjoying. But as to the question - are we too critical? - I take "we" to mean those people who call themselves a Bristol City supporters whether a part timer, glory hunter, haven't missed a match since 1915 or whatever. I don't know if we are TOO critical but Bristolians are fed up with under achievement, that's what lies at the root of the problem.

Bristol, when I was living there, had 500,000 people and a Division 4 team. The club slogs its guts out and occasionally gets to Division 1. When I was kid we had just arrived out of Div 2 and stayed in Div 1 for a long time.  I wanted us to get into the top division but compared with the last 10 years I'd take under achievement in Div 1 again.

Bristolians are proud of their city and they are offered no sensible explanation about why the team has spent 4 years in the top division since about 1910 and has one FA cup losing appearance to its name, whilst Fulham, Wimbledon, Barnsley, Oldham, Southampton and Norwich have all been up there in recent years and teams like Crewe and Walsall stay in Division 1.

It makes no sense as to why City or Rovers have not been higher than Div 2 for much of their existence.  But criticism isn't a new phenomenon - a captain from a 1950s team said that playing at Ashton Gate was like playing in fromt of a jury rather than set of supporters. It's not a Bristol thing, its an under achievement thing. 

Also, those with longer memories (someone mentioned this in an earlier thread) recall that City often down the years seem to look listless against struggling teams. Against Wycombe, whether young or old, there was a sense of resignation - we've seen all this before even recently - Stockport and Colchester last year for instance - we've failed to achieve against teams like this.

Don't get me wrong, this could still be our year.  Why not ? DW isn't the slightest bit weighed down by our past thank goodness. But Bristol deserves better and Bristol City supporters rightly think our club should be the West Country flag flyer.

That's why they moan, whinge and criticise.  They don't want one year in Div 1 and then another 5 year slog to get back out again. They probably would like a white knight who will buy lots of success quickly. Down the years - and especially in the last decade - I have been careful not to moan, whinge and criticise but I do feel I understand where those that do are coming from.

This isn't Rochdale or S****horpe for goodness sake.

Interesting points there.

After a while, the years of underachievement produces an indefinable, empty feeling in the gut, just sheer unrequited disappointment. Interestingly though, I suspect we feel this way far more than, say, Rovers fans would simply because City promise us so much while the Gas promise (and deliver) nothing for their followers.

For me the feeling after watching City stutter to a 1-1 draw against Wycombe was desparate disappointment, coming so soon after an 11 game winning run. How can you feel gutted after a 1-1 draw? It's like Nick Hornby in Fever Pitch saying he'd be unable to carry on if Arsenal failed to win the title. If we were just mediocre all the time I'd probably be fine, but the way City keep on hinting at great things just around the corner, then not quite achieving them just makes it all worse.

So to return to the original topic, those of us who call for changes on the pitch because we perceive the manager is not getting it right (all about opinions as Geoff T would say), well we're doing it because we care. 11 wins in a row is immaterial. In fact it just serves to heighten that desperation to get things right.

[TimmerD]

December 1963 - like what you said.

However, not so sure about the crowd figures for Bolton at Burden Park. I remember going to see City there around that time and the place was mobbed! Hell of an atmosphere and even managed to head a coin!!!

Bristol deserves a club that is amoungst the best, and that is exactly why people critcise and moan.

[december 1963]

I'm own an anorak for a hobby and I'm sure the Bolton game I am referring to was in the Walsh era of 1984-85 and ended 0-0. However, I did go to Burnden Park at the end of 1989-90 when we lost 0-1 and Bob Taylor was suffering with an injury. We desperately wnated City to get prmotoed that day and Bolton, alrefay in the play off spot got 11,000, 4,000 of whihc were City supporters. I rememebr coin throwing at that latter one so it maybe that is the match you remember. I wouldn't satke my whole house on it but I was sure that one game up there was watched by a dismally small attendance. But I'm doing this all from memory because I don't have my anorak book next to me

[megansdad]

In a word my answer would be YES.

As to underachieving clearly Bristol should have a team in a higher Division unfortunately when the slide came following relegation from the First Division so the crowds quickly faded away income dropped and the vicious circle continued until we were bottom of the 92. Contrast that with the crowd at Sheffield Wednesday on Saturday or the attendances Man City enjoyed when they slumped. Unless I'm wrong Man City crowds never dwindled to below 15,000 let alone the level of our crowd earlier this year.

We are second in the Division had one 11 on the trot and yet the Wycombe crowd was still a disappointing one. Our crowds may be good for the Division we are in but they do not unfortunately provide the sort of revenue that would guarantee success.

[little un]

We did put a good run together but let's not forget that a few of the wins came in the last few minutes! So maybe we've run our luck a bit. We are in a good position so let's get behind the lads, better that we are up there than mid table.