Difference Between Criticism And Negativeness

[Jimmy]

Today was one of mixed emotions. On one side we have the notion of it being 2 points dropped - which at the start of the day is a fair concept. We have distinct top 2 aspirations and we were playing a side camped in the relagtion zone, on that front it was most certainly 2 points lost. However to brand the day as such, with hindsight telling us that despite our very poor first half efforts we pulled back a 2 goal deficit infront a capacity crowd against a side who had won their 2 previous home games comfortably, is to not do justice to what could rightfully be described as 1 point gained.

It strikes me that these boards, as has always been the case, are plauged with distinct levels of negativity. Criticise, make your opinions heard on what you believe the manager is doing wrong, that is every bit the joy of being a football fan. However it seems to me that too many people cross the line between offering their criticisms and being unnecessarily negative.

Such examples of this can be seen in replys where the manager is sarcastically referred to as 'the messiah' or the much loved 'happy clappers' phrase is always a pre-requisite of someone ripping chunks out of our team. Criticism is great, without it improvement is much harder to achieve. However the levels of negativity on these boards is incredibly frustrating, especially when considering the promotion challenging path the club undoubtably finds itself on.

The past cannot forever be used as a marker for the present. Having said this we need only re-visit our plight a solitary year ago to see how far we have come. I'm not going to bleat on about how we were relagation candidates this time last year, that has been done, however it does remain a fact and should not be over-looked when considering that the fashionable reasons for 'criticising' at the moment include 'scraping' home wins and heroic 2nd half performances to rescue a point.

We are 3rd in the table, one decent win away from top spot - and yet people moan. For what reason, because we are not performing to our 'potential'? Exactly what is our potential? The last time we found ourselves in such a lofty position the season was 03/04, we were led by Danny Wilson, Swindon and Hartlepool both made the play-offs and, more depressingly, we finished above 5 teams who have since left us in their tracks as they headed into the Championship - only one of which, Brighton, have returned.

So what exactly is this 'potential' that we constantly, not only fail to reach, but if the mood of these boards is any indication, spectacularly manage to avoid. Sure we have the set-up, but what does that mean. Wage structure, stadium, fan base, it means nothing. The key to progressing through the leagues is a good, stable management structure - something that we now have for the first time in quite some time. Luton, Colchester, Barnsley - 3 of the teams that finished below us in 03/04 and have since surpassed us. On paper we are bigger clubs than all 3, however that does not give us the divine right to a higher calibre of football. What that fact does do however is cause frustration. Year on year we see perceived smaller clubs leave us in their wake. While we are travelling to Cheltenham, Northampton and Leyton Orient, the fans of mentioned clubs enjoy hosting the likes of Sunderland, Birmingham and Southampton. That is ultimately incredibly frustrating and, in my opinion, this fan frustration is a key catalyst to the constant undermining of our team, manager and performances.

Having just looked over our 'recent' results I find myself shaking my head at the concept of fan unrest. The last time we lost a game was almost a month ago, we have been unbeaten in all competitions for 9 matches, the last time we did not win a home game was September 30th and, if 'we' can tolerate the fact that we lost 2 very difficult away games vs Nottingham Forest and Yeovil we have lost 2 games in our last 20 in all competitions. As a fan of a football club if you are being overtly negative when considering that fact then quite frankly you need your head examined.

I'm not saying we're perfect, I'm not implying GJ is faultless and doesnt make wrong decisions, and despite what conclusions you may draw on my opinions I agree we could be playing better than we are. However surely that last fact must encourage us rather than worry us. It shall become a worry if we start to lose games, fall away from our current position with the standard of football not improving. However as we stand we are 3rd in the league table, the man recognised as our 'best' player is returning to full fitness and we are about to enter a 5 day period where our minimum expectation should be 7 points. Going into the same period having suffered 2 dissapoiting defeats on the trot, Forest face both inform Port Vale (as we do as well), Tranmere and Oldham. Unlike some of the knee jerk or, perhaps quite the opposite, pent up frustration visable on these boards a reasoned view suggests that it is quite feesible we shall be above the team who 'were going to run away with the league' this year at the end of the 5 day period.

Criticise and offer suggestions, that is fair game, but given our current climate do any of us really have the right to be gratuitously negative?

[Chris]

In my opinion, absolutely spot on

[beau45]

I couldn't say it better myself!

Lets get behind the team and support them, wether it be a good day, a bad day, or an average day. We are in a great positon, and all want the same thing!!!

[RedTop]

That's a pretty decent, measured posting. I'm not as disappointed as some with a point against Cheltenham away, to be honest. And after the appalling first half display, when Cheltenham would have been out of sight if we'd taught their strikers how to hit the target properly when they were in our Academy, the grit and determination the team showed to come back to 2-2 and nearly win it meant I left the ground with it feeling more like a win.

The point you make about the weight of expectation feeding the negativity, which in turn affects our chances of success, is well-made. The good thing, though, is that if/when we get into the Championship that should vanish, and we will be up against teams like So'ton, Coventry, Leeds, Palace etc that have that weight of expectation and discontent to carry. So what might be a handicap now could prove to be a help if/when we go up.

[Port Said Red]

That's a pretty decent, measured posting. I'm not as disappointed as some with a point against Cheltenham away, to be honest. And after the appalling first half display, when Cheltenham would have been out of sight if we'd taught their strikers how to hit the target properly when they were in our Academy, the grit and determination the team showed to come back to 2-2 and nearly win it meant I left the ground with it feeling more like a win.

The point you make about the weight of expectation feeding the negativity, which in turn affects our chances of success, is well-made. The good thing, though, is that if/when we get into the Championship that should vanish, and we will be up against teams like So'ton, Coventry, Leeds, Palace etc that have that weight of expectation and discontent to carry. So what might be a handicap now could prove to be a help if/when we go up.

If the worse thing that happens to us from now to the end of the season is 45 minutes of football that almost costs us three points then everyone should be happy.

I have said before that I think that GJ and this current team are suffering for several years of underachievement, Johnson said as much on The Championship last weekend. Someone was berating Scott Murray about the constant failure on Twentyman talks back a couple of weeks ago.

I can half understand people not wanting to build up their hopes again, but to blame this current side and management for previous years and not recognise the steps forward they have taken is highly unfair.

I am prepare to give these guys a chance and I get the impression there are more and more people thinking that way out there.

To be honest I was expecting a lot more negative comment on here tonight, so either they are busy or the signs are good.

[Guest]

Sorry but cant see it; narrowly avoiding defeat against a Cheltenham side populated by City outcasts and other teams "spare players" hardly fills me with confidence for the future. A injury time goal spared even greater blushes.

The support was there for the whole game shame the players werent

[Red to the world]

Sorry but cant see it; narrowly avoiding defeat against a Cheltenham side populated by City outcasts and other teams "spare players" hardly fills me with confidence for the future. A injury time goal spared even greater blushes.

The support was there for the whole game shame the players werent

Agreed GB - whatever he says " happy clappers " are not being realistic.

I was there and it was poor !

[beau45]

Agreed GB - whatever he says " happy clappers " are not being realistic.

I was there and it was poor !

Yeah the first half was poor, second half was much better, but they are still are team, and no matter what we should support them!

[Northern Red]

Agreed GB - whatever he says " happy clappers " are not being realistic.

I was there and it was poor !

Yes, but according to you, we're always poor.

We're 3rd in the league, not 23rd. Obviously I'd prefer it if we were top with maximum points from 23 games, but that just isn't going to happen. Though I reckon that even if it did, you'd probably still find something to whinge about.

[Guest]

Yes, but according to you, we're always poor.

We're 3rd in the league, not 23rd. Obviously I'd prefer it if we were top with maximum points from 23 games, but that just isn't going to happen. Though I reckon that even if it did, you'd probably still find something to whinge about.

We should of won this 3 or 4 nil,BUT in fact Chelt could of been that up by halftime; now what I fail to understand is Chelt were up for this why werent we at the start. Yes I know we came back to scrape a draw but G.J himself is not happy and niether am I.

[The Fat Controller]

We should of won this 3 or 4 nil,BUT in fact Chelt could of been that up by halftime; now what I fail to understand is Chelt were up for this why werent we at the start. Yes I know we came back to scrape a draw but G.J himself is not happy and niether am I.

Why?

We don't have a divine right to go to Cheltenham and walk away with three points without them putting up a fight.

You seem to forget that Cheltenham have found a little form and confidence, and won their last two home games. They were well up for this game and it shows.

A near capacity crowd may have helped as well.

[RedTop]

Sorry but cant see it; narrowly avoiding defeat against a Cheltenham side populated by City outcasts and other teams "spare players" hardly fills me with confidence for the future.

Maybe not. But perhaps third place, a point off auto-promotion, three off top spot and the best home record in the division just a year after being near the foot of the table might be enough to fill some with confidence for the future. I'd call that progress.

Then again, I'm a happy clapper. Personally I thought the first half was very poor from City but the second half was extremely good, with nice passing football, and if we can carry that forward then that too should be a reason for confidence.

I think the positive far outweigh the negatives at the moment, so it beats me why anyone would not be filled with confidence for the future.

[Guest]

Maybe not. But perhaps third place, a point off auto-promotion, three off top spot and the best home record in the division just a year after being near the foot of the table might be enough to fill some with confidence for the future. I'd call that progress.

Then again, I'm a happy clapper. Personally I thought the first half was very poor from City but the second half was extremely good, with nice passing football, and if we can carry that forward then that too should be a reason for confidence.

I think the positive far outweigh the negatives at the moment, so it beats me why anyone would not be filled with confidence for the future.

You know why As I said before this football team of ours has been known to let us down before; and many of us have the t shirt to prove it; After the debacle at the Mill I vowed never to build it up again.

What will be will be , yes it would be great to go up but myself, would be quite happy getting my butt back in the E.E. for a few games at least, whatever league we are in.

We have seen our lot at the top and bottom, although the top is preferable; whatever will be will be, as they say.

[mozo]

Criticise and offer suggestions, that is fair game, but given our current climate do any of us really have the right to be gratuitously negative?

That was all very well put mate. I totally agree with your point about the cynical nature of people on this forum.

One question though - can you really expect sense to prevail on an internet forum?

[Flaxbourton Red]

Why?

We don't have a divine right to go to Cheltenham and walk away with three points without them putting up a fight.

You seem to forget that Cheltenham have found a little form and confidence, and won their last two home games. They were well up for this game and it shows.

A near capacity crowd may have helped as well.

they were brimming with confidence in the first half. It looked as if we hadn't turned up. I thought we were in for trouble as I turned up five minutes late and entered that stand that leads directly into the back of the goal. Literally the first thing i saw was basso scoop the ball up. I couldn't believe how close we were.

A proper non-league ground, even trumpton was bigger than that place.

Also who designed the seats, are they all dwarfs or something in cheltenham? A fine example of why all seater stadia are a nonsense.

[Ian M]

You know why As I said before this football team of ours has been known to let us down before; and many of us have the t shirt to prove it; After the debacle at the Mill I vowed never to build it up again.

What will be will be , yes it would be great to go up but myself, would be quite happy getting my butt back in the E.E. for a few games at least, whatever league we are in.

We have seen our lot at the top and bottom, although the top is preferable; whatever will be will be, as they say.

I'm sorry GB, I have to call you up on that point. This football club has been known to let us down before. T

It's my belief (and that of others) that the current team is suffering because previous teams have let us down.

The current team has got us out of a pretty dire looking relegation battle and now has us sitting 1 point off the automatic places at the half-way point.

What have they got to do to be given the benefit of the doubt? Or do they have to actually achieve first before we consider lending them our support?

[andy g]

I'll be honest and say I didnt read the whole post, but if your point is that people on this forum are overly negative - then yes, I agree.

Ok, the forum is a convenient place to let off some steam, but it would be nice to have some measured criticisms too.

[Guest]

I'm sorry GB, I have to call you up on that point. This football club has been known to let us down before. T

It's my belief (and that of others) that the current team is suffering because previous teams have let us down.

The current team has got us out of a pretty dire looking relegation battle and now has us sitting 1 point off the automatic places at the half-way point.

What have they got to do to be given the benefit of the doubt? Or do they have to actually achieve first before we consider lending them our support?

Support did they not have maximum allowed support at Chelt and Yeovil our team managed a last minute return of one point

Already we have seen "we will increase our goal diff v Bournemouth" I really hope we do, our team can hold there own against anybody outside the prem but 100% effort required for 100% of the game or we will be in for a few more shocks.

Chelt could of been out of sight by h/t replies would of been quite different then.

Past experiences has taught me to be wary of getting to excited just yet.

[Ian M]

Support did they not have maximum allowed support at Chelt and Yeovil our team managed a last minute return of one point

Already we have seen "we will increase our goal diff v Bournemouth" I really hope we do, our team can hold there own against anybody outside the prem but 100% effort required for 100% of the game or we will be in for a few more shocks.

Chelt could of been out of sight by h/t replies would of been quite different then.

Past experiences has taught me to be wary of getting to excited just yet.

You misrepresent my use of the word support. Maybe I should be more clear

In terms of numbers we are almost back to where we were in the Wilson seasons which is something we as fans can be proud of.

However, there appears to be considerably more "distrust" now than before that the team will fail. This is wholly understandable given the length of time we have been down in this division but it is my point that it is not the fault of the current players. Don't they deserve to have a bit more belief shown in them by us?

Many have commented that the spirit and heart of the current side is very high and they won't give up without a fight, wouldn't it be great if we as supporters showed such doggedness instead of expecting us to fail as soon as something goes against us?

[Guest]

You misrepresent my use of the word support. Maybe I should be more clear

In terms of numbers we are almost back to where we were in the Wilson seasons which is something we as fans can be proud of.

However, there appears to be considerably more "distrust" now than before that the team will fail. This is wholly understandable given the length of time we have been down in this division but it is my point that it is not the fault of the current players. Don't they deserve to have a bit more belief shown in them by us?

Many have commented that the spirit and heart of the current side is very high and they won't give up without a fight, wouldn't it be great if we as supporters showed such doggedness instead of expecting us to fail as soon as something goes against us?

don't mention fight yeah you`re right I suppose even considering coming down for a visit on Tues, don't tell anyone though, as I said I wouldnt still could sneak in quitely no-one would notice an extra one

[RedTop]

Support did they not have maximum allowed support at Chelt and Yeovil our team managed a last minute return of one point

Ah, so you are suggesting vocal support does not in fact help the team get better results. So that's one more reason to add to the list of why opening the East End isn't worth the bother.

[Red Robin]

Your post Jimmy is spot on,to many people have very short memorys.

This time last year we were a mess,GJ just missed the playoffs,one year later we sit third not playing anything like our second half performances last season.

Three points of the top.

Coventry are coming to town shortly. having had some banter with them,they would love our manager,it seems other teams are noticecing we are on the up after being lightweights for to many seasons.

GJ is and has done a cracking job,anybody sayinging he has not really does need to go look in the mirror.

[Guest]

Ah, so you are suggesting vocal support does not in fact help the team get better results. So that's one more reason to add to the list of why opening the East End isn't worth the bother.

You`re funny I like you

[Bristol Boy]

Today was one of mixed emotions. On one side we have the notion of it being 2 points dropped - which at the start of the day is a fair concept. We have distinct top 2 aspirations and we were playing a side camped in the relagtion zone, on that front it was most certainly 2 points lost. However to brand the day as such, with hindsight telling us that despite our very poor first half efforts we pulled back a 2 goal deficit infront a capacity crowd against a side who had won their 2 previous home games comfortably, is to not do justice to what could rightfully be described as 1 point gained.

They'd also lost the previous four and lost six out of eleven at home.One of those games was against Brentford who couldn't beat their reserves at the moment.

It strikes me that these boards, as has always been the case, are plauged with distinct levels of negativity. Criticise, make your opinions heard on what you believe the manager is doing wrong, that is every bit the joy of being a football fan. However it seems to me that too many people cross the line between offering their criticisms and being unnecessarily negative.

Such examples of this can be seen in replys where the manager is sarcastically referred to as 'the messiah' or the much loved 'happy clappers' phrase is always a pre-requisite of someone ripping chunks out of our team. Criticism is great, without it improvement is much harder to achieve. However the levels of negativity on these boards is incredibly frustrating, especially when considering the promotion challenging path the club undoubtably finds itself on.

The past cannot forever be used as a marker for the present. Having said this we need only re-visit our plight a solitary year ago to see how far we have come. I'm not going to bleat on about how we were relagation candidates this time last year, that has been done, however it does remain a fact and should not be over-looked when considering that the fashionable reasons for 'criticising' at the moment include 'scraping' home wins and heroic 2nd half performances to rescue a point.

We are 3rd in the table, one decent win away from top spot - and yet people moan. For what reason, because we are not performing to our 'potential'?

No because we haven't won away in three months and have beaten one team in the top 17 on the road.That's not the end of the world but it is a cause for concern.

Exactly what is our potential? The last time we found ourselves in such a lofty position the season was 03/04, we were led by Danny Wilson, Swindon and Hartlepool both made the play-offs and, more depressingly, we finished above 5 teams who have since left us in their tracks as they headed into the Championship - only one of which, Brighton, have returned.

One of the major mistakes that all managers make when they arrive here.....or anywhere else for that matter is in thinking that everything starts now...It doesn't.We've been in this division for about nine seasons and most of us, I have certainly, have been here before.Some others have just walked away.As the terrace chant used to go "We've heard it all before" I go backa long way and can only tell you what I see home & away.Of course we're better off than we were at this time last season, So what? It doesn't make yesterday any more annoying and indefenceable

So what exactly is this 'potential' that we constantly, not only fail to reach, but if the mood of these boards is any indication, spectacularly manage to avoid. Sure we have the set-up, but what does that mean. Wage structure, stadium, fan base, it means nothing.

Apparently not

The key to progressing through the leagues is a good, stable management structure - something that we now have for the first time in quite some time.

DW was here for four seasons and that's a lifetime at some clubs.The key to progress is Leadership,that's been poor and Management-Ditto

Luton, Colchester, Barnsley - 3 of the teams that finished below us in 03/04 and have since surpassed us. On paper we are bigger clubs than all 3, however that does not give us the divine right to a higher calibre of football. What that fact does do however is cause frustration. Year on year we see perceived smaller clubs leave us in their wake. While we are travelling to Cheltenham, Northampton and Leyton Orient, the fans of mentioned clubs enjoy hosting the likes of Sunderland, Birmingham and Southampton. That is ultimately incredibly frustrating and, in my opinion, this fan frustration is a key catalyst to the constant undermining of our team, manager and performances.

The point of these boards and the written media isn't to support the club.We do that by paying for our tickets and turning up (well, some of us do) week in, week out, home & away.The point of this board is to express not surpress opinion and two of the three clubs you mention have had more upheaval by far.It isn't the Russian or Iranian state press towing the party line as much as GJ would like it.

Having just looked over our 'recent' results I find myself shaking my head at the concept of fan unrest. The last time we lost a game was almost a month ago, we have been unbeaten in all competitions for 9 matches, the last time we did not win a home game was September 30th and, if 'we' can tolerate the fact that we lost 2 very difficult away games vs Nottingham Forest and Yeovil we have lost 2 games in our last 20 in all competitions. As a fan of a football club if you are being overtly negative when considering that fact then quite frankly you need your head examined.

The main criticism isn't about results although we haven't won away in three months and that includes trips to Brentford & Cheltenham as well as Yeovil & Forest.It's about performances and continually, not occasionaly, grinding out wins.That can't go on and, if it does you will see this commented on.We won but we were poor isn't a negative remark it's an observation.

I'm not saying we're perfect, I'm not implying GJ is faultless and doesnt make wrong decisions, and despite what conclusions you may draw on my opinions I agree we could be playing better than we are.

Agreed

However surely that last fact must encourage us rather than worry us. It shall become a worry if we start to lose games, fall away from our current position with the standard of football not improving. However as we stand we are 3rd in the league table, the man recognised as our 'best' player is returning to full fitness and we are about to enter a 5 day period where our minimum expectation should be 7 points.

Expectation level is another issue

Going into the same period having suffered 2 dissapoiting defeats on the trot, Forest face both inform Port Vale (as we do as well), Tranmere and Oldham. Unlike some of the knee jerk or, perhaps quite the opposite, pent up frustration visable on these boards a reasoned view suggests that it is quite feesible we shall be above the team who 'were going to run away with the league' this year at the end of the 5 day period.

I hope so, however, as you say, we also have Tranmere & Vale.S****horpe are also just in front of us and their fixtures aren't that difficult

Criticise and offer suggestions, that is fair game, but given our current climate do any of us really have the right to be gratuitously negative?

I've enjoyed reading your post which is well thought out, but I can honestly say that I don't find the amount of gratuitous negativity that you refer to.I hear people voicing opinon and the drive of it seems to surround those that, quite sensibly in my view, realise that we can't go on playing poorly and winning and those who say, couldn't care less a wins, a win and it will go on forever.

That's a healthy debate and this board does well in reflecting opinion of independently minded people on both sides of the argument.That isn't popular with some people but long may it continue as an honest outlet for those who care passionately about BCFC.

[Bristol Boy]

I couldn't say it better myself!

Lets get behind the team and support them, wether it be a good day, a bad day, or an average day. We are in a great positon, and all want the same thing!!!

And if there wasn't conflicting opinion there wouldn't be a Forum at all.So, following up as you have suggested, shut it down?

[mozo]

And if there wasn't conflicting opinion there wouldn't be a Forum at all.So, following up as you have suggested, shut it down?

If it's a sunny day there's no point in saying 'I hate this rain'.

As far as I'm concerned the outlook for City is bright, certainly not gloomy. Some people on here seem to feel that every day is a miserable one.

[Bristol Boy]

If the worse thing that happens to us from now to the end of the season is 45 minutes of football that almost costs us three points then everyone should be happy.

If we go on playing that way, it won't be.We won't get away with perfrmances like that against the better teams......and we haven't in our FIVE defeats away

I have said before that I think that GJ and this current team are suffering for several years of underachievement, Johnson said as much on The Championship last weekend. Someone was berating Scott Murray about the constant failure on Twentyman talks back a couple of weeks ago.

I think that goes with the territory and whilst you're right that it's unfair to criticise the current manager and players for the failures of the past, they can't be undone in supporters minds either and many that are no longer commenting are also no longer attending. Murray has perked up over the past month or so so the criticism may have struck home? Either that or he's a confidence player who just found some confidence?

I am prepare to give these guys a chance and I get the impression there are more and more people thinking that way out there.

They have been given a chance and the fans are far more forgiving on matchdays than, say, even ten years ago.

To be honest I was expecting a lot more negative comment on here tonight, so either they are busy or the signs are good.

Sorry, I was out to Dinner

[Bristol Boy]

If it's a sunny day there's no point in saying 'I hate this rain'.

And if it's raining there's no point in denying it or throwing your brolly away because it never will

As far as I'm concerned the outlook for City is bright, certainly not gloomy. Some people on here seem to feel that every day is a miserable one.

Let's hope and we have grounds for optimism to.People will normally reflect on what they have seen,Good or Bad and that's just honest & realsitic.