Championship = Bigger Crowds?

[headhunter]

We are a fickle lot us Bristolians.

Look at these figures [all average attendance figures for the season]:

1975/76 16204 1976-77 23522

Promotion to what is now the Premiership sees crowds increase by 45% but then as the novelty wears off of playing in the top flight and struggling look at how the attendances fall away in the next 3 seasons: 23357 [77/78] 22306 [78/79] 18932 [79/80]

In 89/90 we had again been absent from the Championship for 8 years :

1989/90 11544 1990/91 13495

Promotion under Jordan sees an uplift of 17% - good but not great ; look how it falls in the next 4 seasons until relegation again:

11479 [91/92] 11004 [92/93] 8852 [93/94] 8005 [ 94/95]

Now to The John Ward years

1997/98 11846 1998/99 12818

A meagre uplift of 8% this time to a figure that conincidentally is the same as last seasons average

So what for 07/08?

2006/07 12818 2007/08 my prediction a 12% increase to 14356

What do you think?

And at the same time are you worried about the lack of transfer activity so far and do you think Sexstone is putting out more spin on season ticket sales than New Labour?

[howey_ducky]

spin, monty would look on with envy.

[Bristol Boy]

Very interesting post.

I've already said that even if the ST Sales go up to 10,000, given that a lot of those new 2,400 ST Holders were POD last season, our POD will drop, so the average won't be much higher when you remove the away fans from the equation and I reckon that'll be about 1,500 on average.

WBA & Wolves may well bring 2,500/3,500 but Barnsley, S****horpe, Colchester & Blackpool will bring 200-500 tops.

POD accounted for about 40% of our home gate last season inc the away fans.Fans may baulk at £28/30 per game and it could be ST or no ticket for some with others picking & choosing their games.

I think your average gate figure may be about right providing we're doing OK.

[Blagdon red]

POD accounted for about 40% of our home gate last season inc the away fans.

Out of interest, have you worked out / can you work out what %-age of home fans paid on the day on average last season?

[Nibor]

If the average away attendance was 500 (which is probably generous) then it was still over 36%.

[Guest Ron]

The state you find yourself in during a season is always going to impact heavily upon attendances, as you've said; we would never have sold out the games at the end of last season without being in the Promotion Race. Next season's average attendance could fluctuate by a great deal depending on if we do a Colchester or a Southend. I'd be delighted to see an average gate of 15,000, something I've only seen 7-8 times during my few years at AG since becoming a Season Ticket holder.

[Nibor]

I don't think current league form impacts heavily on your average attendance over a season. It will affect the crowd you get for a particular game but over the season it averages out. If you win a couple of games the crowds bump up, if you lose a couple they bump down.

We got an average of what ... 10-12%? higher last season during which we got promoted and were at the top all the way along than we did in the season before when we were at the bottom for half of it. Pretty much the only difference was the couple of big gates at the end and in the grand scheme of things that isn't a big deal. I'm sure if we were in a relegation fight right up until the end of a season we'd have big attendances too.

I expect that we'll see around 1,000 more home fans per game next season which is piss poor really, we should be trying harder to pack everyone in and fill the place.

[headhunter]

[

I expect that we'll see around 1,000 more home fans per game next season which is piss poor really, we should be trying harder to pack everyone in and fill the place.

[Guest Ron]

I don't think current league form impacts heavily on your average attendance over a season. It will affect the crowd you get for a particular game but over the season it averages out. If you win a couple of games the crowds bump up, if you lose a couple they bump down.

We got an average of what ... 10-12%? higher last season during which we got promoted and were at the top all the way along than we did in the season before when we were at the bottom for half of it. Pretty much the only difference was the couple of big gates at the end and in the grand scheme of things that isn't a big deal. I'm sure if we were in a relegation fight right up until the end of a season we'd have big attendances too.

Wigan's Premiership attendance problem began to occur in this season last gone; they were in the middle of what ended up a relegation crisis. Had they been in the top 6 (or top 8 in CCC terms), this definitely would not have occurred. I remember the dark days of the 9 games on the spin - had our form not sufficiently turned during December onwards, our attendances, moreso without the "Everyone who has a Season Ticket is included" policy, would have suffered throughout the season.

[Nibor]

Wigan's Premiership attendance problem began to occur in this season last gone; they were in the middle of what ended up a relegation crisis. Had they been in the top 6 (or top 8 in CCC terms), this definitely would not have occurred. I remember the dark days of the 9 games on the spin - had our form not sufficiently turned during December onwards, our attendances, moreso without the "Everyone who has a Season Ticket is included" policy, would have suffered throughout the season.

Ron, Wigan's attendances started extremely low last season and actually increased throughout the season especially towards the end when they offered cheaper tickets. This was almost the opposite of their league position. In fact, on the back of four straight league wins and a top half league position they got an attendance of 16.5k, yet 3 months later and 9 league positions lower on the back of just one win in ten they got over 21k.

And in an effort to recapture the average attendances of their first season in the top flight, what move have they just made? That's right - they've slashed season ticket prices. £250 each.

[Ian M]

[

I expect that we'll see around 1,000 more home fans per game next season which is piss poor really, we should be trying harder to pack everyone in and fill the place.

Totally agree with this.

I think that if prices had gone up by,say, 20% the draw of Championship football would probably have seen us pass the 10000 season ticket sale before now. As it is, depending on what sort of season we have,we will get some 17000+ gates but for the likes of Colchester and Scunthorpe expect 9-10000 as POTD falls away significantly

Apologies for highlighting your post hh but it's a point I keep seeing being raised over the forum so isn't meant purely at you.

I question whether a rise of 20% would have been as well received if that had been the average rise. At the moment 20% looks gorgeous mainly because we can compare it to the 30% we are having to pay. However, my experience of City fans is that we love nothing better than a good moan and had the rise only been 20% in the first instance we'd have still had all the comments of fleecing the fans, greedy directors & comparisons to the inflation rate*.

*comparisons to the inflation rate are are futile anyway as next season's ST is a different product to last season't given we will be playing in a separate league. A crude example would be like comparing a 2007 business class flight ticket to a 2006 Economy class one.

[Luke_Ciderhead]

,we will get some 17000+ gates but for the likes of Colchester and S****horpe expect 9-10000 as POTD falls away significantly

We are likely to have around 9-10,000 season ticket holders in total. There is no way we'll get a crowd that low next season. If we're doing badly i'd say 11,000 at the very minimum against the less attractive sides.

Apart from that, I agree with what most people have said. Its a shame really because Plymouth averaged 16500 on their return to this level. We could easily have done the same if we marketed Championship football the right way, instead of alienating the hangers on with ridiculous ticket prices.

[Guest Ron]

Ron, Wigan's attendances started extremely low last season and actually increased throughout the season especially towards the end when they offered cheaper tickets. This was almost the opposite of their league position. In fact, on the back of four straight league wins and a top half league position they got an attendance of 16.5k, yet 3 months later and 9 league positions lower on the back of just one win in ten they got over 21k.

And in an effort to recapture the average attendances of their first season in the top flight, what move have they just made? That's right - they've slashed season ticket prices. £250 each.

In 2005/6 Wigan amassed an average attendance of 20,233, about 20% higher than in 2006/7. As you say, their attendances were low from the start of last season, but this was not helped by facing newly promoted Reading & Watford as their 2 first home games, and totting up only 4 points from their opening 5 games, by the end of which they had still only played 1 home game. While their attendance was 16.5k when they played Charlton, it only bettered this on 8 times; home games against Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester United (they played Arsenal on a Wednesday); the game after they played Charlton, which was a 0-0 draw with Aston Villa; 2 Sunday games against Newcastle & Everton, when I can only presume they would have significantly lowered their prices; and the last 2 home games of the season, Middlesbrough & West Ham, when the odds were that they would go down.

As we saw last season when the big games came around the attendances would fluctuate, but by a similar amount when there were the least important games. However had we been languishing at the bottom of the league, while we would still have seen low attendances for the likes of Gillingham in the FA Cup, we would not have seen the sell-outs which we did at the end of last season.

[Nibor]

However had we been languishing at the bottom of the league, while we would still have seen low attendances for the likes of Gillingham in the FA Cup, we would not have seen the sell-outs which we did at the end of last season.

And that's where I disagree. When something is riding on the game, whether it's promotion or relegation, fans come out and watch - just like they did at Wigan and just like they did last time we got relegated.

Over the season as a whole I think there's very little difference in average attendance between being at the top or near the bottom and only a slight (10%ish) dip if you're in a meaningless mid table position. We've seen that in our own figures and Wigan's mirror it too.

The crux of what I'm saying is that your league position only affects your average attendance over the course of a season a little because those losing runs are balanced by the relegation battle sell outs or small periods of success.

I think the level of the opposition and price of tickets have a far bigger affect on how many heads come through turnstiles in a whole season. That's why I think the price rises are too high, because I think they will have a big impact on the number of people supporting the team from the stands next season.

The example you gave of Wigan (and the ticket deals clubs like Bolton and Blackburn did this season) would seem to bear that out. Wigan have just finished their second season after promotion and seen fit to slash prices to get more people through the door and supporting the team. Why can't we be forward thinking for once and get bums on seats first and then gradually put the prices up when they're hooked in?

[Guest Ron]

And that's where I disagree. When something is riding on the game, whether it's promotion or relegation, fans come out and watch - just like they did at Wigan and just like they did last time we got relegated.

Over the season as a whole I think there's very little difference in average attendance between being at the top or near the bottom and only a slight (10%ish) dip if you're in a meaningless mid table position. We've seen that in our own figures and Wigan's mirror it too.

The crux of what I'm saying is that your league position only affects your average attendance over the course of a season a little because those losing runs are balanced by the relegation battle sell outs or small periods of success.

I think the level of the opposition and price of tickets have a far bigger affect on how many heads come through turnstiles in a whole season. That's why I think the price rises are too high, because I think they will have a big impact on the number of people supporting the team from the stands next season.

Let's get one thing established before I make this post; Wigan were involved in a relegation battle for the majority of last season.

There were only 2 Saturday games which were not against top-4 teams which had attendences of over their average attendance for 2005/6. As you rightly say, these were both against relegation rivals, but there were only these 2 games, when over the season as a whole their attendance went down by around 40%. Add to that the depressing 8% gain in bums on seats when we were last in Division 1.

[Bristol Boy]

We are likely to have around 9-10,000 season ticket holders in total. There is no way we'll get a crowd that low next season. If we're doing badly i'd say 11,000 at the very minimum against the less attractive sides.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the ST holders turn up every week because, based on the 7,600 total from last season, about 750-1,000 were no shows for every home game, obviously not the same 750-1,000

Apart from that, I agree with what most people have said. Its a shame really because Plymouth averaged 16500 on their return to this level. We could easily have done the same if we marketed Championship football the right way, instead of alienating the hangers on with ridiculous ticket prices.

It wasn't the hangers on that were alienanted a lot of ST's are

[Nibor]

Let's get one thing established before I make this post; Wigan were involved in a relegation battle for the majority of last season.

No they weren't, they were in a relegation battle for the second half of the season only, the first half they averaged about 13th. Their crowds in the first half of the season, when they were drifting around in no mans land, were lower than in the second half of the season.

Their low attendances were there from day one, when given their previous season noone could have had any idea where they'd end up in the league. Yes, individual games varied by the opposition, but the only time their average took an upturn in the whole season was when they had something to play for - survival.

The stats are on football365 if you want to see them.

[Blagdon red]

Why can't we be forward thinking for once and get bums on seats first and then gradually put the prices up when they're hooked in?

Couldn't agree more - but too imaginative for our lot, I'm afraid!