There But For The Grace Of Sl!

[ciderup]

Taken from another board:

THE Swindon Advertiser can exclusively reveal the extent of Town's financial woes as we lay bare the takeover deal that could cost £18 million.

A source close to the negotiations between club suitors Best Holdings and the current shareholders has disclosed the full extent of Town's financial precipice.

Immediate debts total more than £4m, far more than first thought, but it is estimated the final deal could cost the Portuguese company about £18m.

It is believed that major shareholders, the Wills family, would receive £8m in instalments over five years, while a 75 per cent stake in the club would cost an additional £3m.

Best Holdings would be expected to pay £8m up front but, taking debts to property developers St Modwen and a potential £1.2m owed to Bill Power into account, the deal would eventually rise to about £18m.

Chairman designate Jim Little declined to comment but insisted rumours of the deal breaking up were not true.

But it is believed constant talks are being held to try and smooth the way for the agreement.

TrustSTFC chairman Paul Davis admitted he was "shocked" by the level of the debts and has questioned whether there will still be a club for the League One clash with Tranmere the Saturday after next.

With the Inland Revenue owed almost £1.8m it is believed their patience is running out and, with two administration spells already behind them, a winding up order could be the next course of action.

Davis said: "These figures really crystalise the situation.

"I think all our worries about the nature of the prospective buyers still remain.

"But the future of the club is a much more pressing issue. If they can't do a deal the worry is what is going to happen to the club.

"It is almost a case of the devil and the deep blue sea really. There is the real prospect of this club going to extinction."

I knew they owed a few quid but according to a few of their fans, if the takeover falls through, tonight could be their last game! As they have already been into administration, they could well be demoted.

Shame..........?

U REDS

[Barrs Court Red]

Dislike them, but they wont go bust.

[giles_23_bcfc]

Taken from another board:

THE Swindon Advertiser can exclusively reveal the extent of Town's financial woes as we lay bare the takeover deal that could cost £18 million.

A source close to the negotiations between club suitors Best Holdings and the current shareholders has disclosed the full extent of Town's financial precipice.

Immediate debts total more than £4m, far more than first thought, but it is estimated the final deal could cost the Portuguese company about £18m.

It is believed that major shareholders, the Wills family, would receive £8m in instalments over five years, while a 75 per cent stake in the club would cost an additional £3m.

Best Holdings would be expected to pay £8m up front but, taking debts to property developers St Modwen and a potential £1.2m owed to Bill Power into account, the deal would eventually rise to about £18m.

Chairman designate Jim Little declined to comment but insisted rumours of the deal breaking up were not true.

But it is believed constant talks are being held to try and smooth the way for the agreement.

TrustSTFC chairman Paul Davis admitted he was "shocked" by the level of the debts and has questioned whether there will still be a club for the League One clash with Tranmere the Saturday after next.

With the Inland Revenue owed almost £1.8m it is believed their patience is running out and, with two administration spells already behind them, a winding up order could be the next course of action.

Davis said: "These figures really crystalise the situation.

"I think all our worries about the nature of the prospective buyers still remain.

"But the future of the club is a much more pressing issue. If they can't do a deal the worry is what is going to happen to the club.

"It is almost a case of the devil and the deep blue sea really. There is the real prospect of this club going to extinction."

I knew they owed a few quid but according to a few of their fans, if the takeover falls through, tonight could be their last game! As they have already been into administration, they could well be demoted.

Shame..........?

U REDS

Bloody hell. Knew there financial status was poor but not THAT poor.

IF they do go into extinction, then it will be a shame, local rivals or not. Its never nice to see a professional club go extinct. Just think of their fans, ordinary people like us who could well have no football club to support after tonight.

Just think if it happened to us

[Barrs Court Red]

Just think of their fans,

I have, odious annoying bunch of mouth merchants. In that respect I am most pleased in this latest announcement.

The real issue here, is not the foolish fans who have stood for this for so long, or the players or the present owners, it is the fact that this can be allowed to happen by the league, if not the government at some level. Football clubs have hundreds of years history, that is the real loser in all this

[giles_23_bcfc]

I have, odious annoying bunch of mouth merchants. In that respect I am most pleased in this latest announcement.

The real issue here, is not the foolish fans who have stood for this for so long, or the players or the present owners, it is the fact that this can be allowed to happen by the league, if not the government at some level. Football clubs have hundreds of years history, that is the real loser in all this

They probably think the same about us, but, if we were in the situation they are, i bet they would be supportive to us and want us to survive it.

[Barrs Court Red]

Help us? They find 82 funny, so **** 'um

[Seend Red]

How many time over the past 5 years have we seen clubs apprently on the brink of closure? How many times of these club actually been closed!

No doubt they are in a mess off the pitch but a solution will be found,it alway is.

[ciderup]

How many time over the past 5 years have we seen clubs apprently on the brink of closure? How many times of these club actually been closed!

No doubt they are in a mess off the pitch but a solution will be found,it alway is.

Totally agree with the sentiments but Swindon have been in to admin twice already, relegated for financial irregularities too! If the proposed buy out falls through then they are in real trouble. According to a Swindon fan on football forums.net the next step after 2 entries in to admin is to declare the club bankrupt! As their ground is council owned, the clubs assets are a big fat zero which spells curtains doesn't it?

What I don't get is how the hell are Swindon allowed to sign players with their finances in such a state? Biily Paynter wouldn't have come cheap!

[Guest]

How many time over the past 5 years have we seen clubs apprently on the brink of closure? How many times of these club actually been closed!

No doubt they are in a mess off the pitch but a solution will be found,it alway is.

I think this is as dangerous as it gets though. We aren't talking about a club like Rotherham who had a few million pounds debt, or someone big like Leeds with a massive amount of debt. We are talking about a poor div 1 side with little fan base and a crap stadium. Who in there right mind is going to stump up £18m to take them on. You could probably purchase a decent championship club for that sort of money!

I think if the take over colapses then Swindon could be really close to the edge.

[winsleyred]

Help us? They find 82 funny, so **** 'um

I know 2 swindon fans who brought shares in 82

[swindlered]

I think this is as dangerous as it gets though. We aren't talking about a club like Rotherham who had a few million pounds debt, or someone big like Leeds with a massive amount of debt. We are talking about a poor div 1 side with little fan base and a crap stadium. Who in there right mind is going to stump up £18m to take them on. You could probably purchase a decent championship club for that sort of money!

I think if the take over colapses then Swindon could be really close to the edge.

Presumably with £18 mill you could buy a better club than Swindon. If I was Best Holdings why would you want to pay £8 mill to the Wills family plus an extra £3 mill for 75% when you can let the club go to the wall and say you'll clear all debts in return for a majority shareholding for a £1. Or have I taken an overly simplistic view??

If the club does go to the wall then the fans have only themselves to blame. Apart from the guys at the Supporters Trust - who seem to have a marmite effect on their own fans - there has been little outcry or interest in the clubs finances.

No doubt there will be more twists in the tale.

[BCFC_Dan]

I think this is as dangerous as it gets though. We aren't talking about a club like Rotherham who had a few million pounds debt, or someone big like Leeds with a massive amount of debt. We are talking about a poor div 1 side with little fan base and a crap stadium. Who in there right mind is going to stump up £18m to take them on. You could probably purchase a decent championship club for that sort of money!

I think if the take over colapses then Swindon could be really close to the edge.

For another example see Wrexham. They're still hanging on, just, but they've been reduced to scrabbling about at the foot of the football league (which they may not be allowed back into if they get relegated due to being Welsh), and at best they will probably end up with a 3-sided ground where their traditional home end is replaced by flats.

Sure no clubs have actually gone bankrupt, but they have had their hearts ripped from them.

[Rudolf Hucker]

I think this is as dangerous as it gets though. We aren't talking about a club like Rotherham who had a few million pounds debt, or someone big like Leeds with a massive amount of debt. We are talking about a poor div 1 side with little fan base and a crap stadium. Who in there right mind is going to stump up £18m to take them on. You could probably purchase a decent championship club for that sort of money!

I think if the take over colapses then Swindon could be really close to the edge.

I think you're right Tom - the position of Swindon is very, very perilous. Debts of £18M for a club with no assets (the ground is council-owned) means that anyone taking it over has to take on that debt with no security - with no likelihood of it ever being recovered. No businessman in his right mind would surely ever contemplate buying a Division One club on this basis?

I believe that the Swindon players have only just been paid their salaries for September. The action now planned by the Inland Revenue could be final. As Swindon have twice previously entered administration, a declaration of bankruptcy is a very likely next step.

The Portuguese consortium in discussion with Swindon regarding a possible takeover have been considering taking on a debt of around £2M not the £18M being reported in the Swindon Evening Advertizer.

Sometime, somewhere, soon a League club will go bust. Swindon are, I'm afraid a prime candidate.

I've never liked Swindon or their supporters but I would not wish this upon them, or anyone else. As the original poster states: there but for the grace of SL (and God) ...

[Northern Red]

How many time over the past 5 years have we seen clubs apprently on the brink of closure? How many times of these club actually been closed!

True, and it's nearly always Swindon involved. They'll escape, they always do.

[Nibor]

Don't care what happens to Swindon either way but they won't go out of business.

The creditors get faced with a choice of getting nothing back and killing a football club or getting a pittance back and not killing one.

The choice will be the latter.

What we need to do is stop irresponsible management of football clubs in the first place.

[Hillbilly]

Don't care what happens to Swindon either way but they won't go out of business.

The creditors get faced with a choice of getting nothing back and killing a football club or getting a pittance back and not killing one.

The choice will be the latter.

What we need to do is stop irresponsible management of football clubs in the first place.

The 10 points deduction for entering administration is supposed to act as a deterrent. Perhaps anyone in charge of a football club that goes into administration should be banned from ever being involved in another club?

[rumbellow]

No sympathy whatsoever, 3 seasons ago during the close season they spent money on transfer fees and by October were once more in financial trouble, last season the same thing happend and guess what they did the same again this season 4 players signed (at least) where fees in excess os 250k paid out.

I appreciate it's not the fans fault, but surely the league must have seen this coming, after all the financial mismanagement of this club has gone on for 20 years now.

it would also appear they haven't paid Cheltenham for the ticket sales for their game at Whaddon Road this season.

For those who regularly abuse SL, Think on.

[RedTop]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The crazy unsustainable finances of football where irresponsible directors (egged on and pressurized by fans, the majority of whom are not innocent in this) put the future of their club at risk by gambling on success will only come to an end when one or more league clubs actually goes bust. That's the very least it would take for some stark reality to hit home. So it might as well be Swindon. I accept that some time, one or more club is going to have to go to the wall to bring an element of reality into football. So long as it's not us, I'll settle for it being any of the other 91 clubs. If it ain't Swindle, it'll be someone else.

I got monstered on here for saying this last time because people misinterpreted it as a 'wish' for a club to go bust. It's not, I just see it as inevitable because until directors stop thinking that when it gets to the crunch the club will survive, they will keep acting as if the normal business laws don't apply in football. And until fans see another club go under, they will keep burying their heads in the sand and accuse boards of "lacking ambition" if they don't throw all the money they have plus the kitchen sink at climbing up the league table.

When it comes down to it, I would rather have the guardians of Bristol City put survival ahead of stretching the finances to breaking point so that I know that 20 or 30 years down there will still be a team here for my kids and grandkids to watch. Winding in spending to match income, and refusing to be pressurized by fans into spending money the club cannot afford, is not lacking ambition. It's safeguarding the club's future in a mad, mad Alice in Wonderland world of football finance. I think our board could do better in this respect, and it is also CRUCIAL that the club is not tempted to sell off the stadium. But if it takes Swindle going bust to bring football back into the real world and stop our own club heading closer to oblivion, then bye bye Swindle. At least it would slightly increase our own catchment area, I guess.

[Hillbilly]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The crazy unsustainable finances of football where irresponsible directors (egged on and pressurized by fans, the majority of whom are not innocent in this) put the future of their club at risk by gambling on success will only come to an end when one or more league clubs actually goes bust. That's the very least it would take for some stark reality to hit home. So it might as well be Swindon. I accept that some time, one or more club is going to have to go to the wall to bring an element of reality into football. So long as it's not us, I'll settle for it being any of the other 91 clubs. If it ain't Swindle, it'll be someone else.

I got monstered on here for saying this last time because people misinterpreted it as a 'wish' for a club to go bust. It's not, I just see it as inevitable because until directors stop thinking that when it gets to the crunch the club will survive, they will keep acting as if the normal business laws don't apply in football. And until fans see another club go under, they will keep burying their heads in the sand and accuse boards of "lacking ambition" if they don't throw all the money they have plus the kitchen sink at climbing up the league table.

When it comes down to it, I would rather have the guardians of Bristol City put survival ahead of stretching the finances to breaking point so that I know that 20 or 30 years down there will still be a team here for my kids and grandkids to watch. Winding in spending to match income, and refusing to be pressurized by fans into spending money the club cannot afford, is not lacking ambition. It's safeguarding the club's future in a mad, mad Alice in Wonderland world of football finance. I think our board could do better in this respect, and it is also CRUCIAL that the club is not tempted to sell off the stadium. But if it takes Swindle going bust to bring football back into the real world and stop our own club heading closer to oblivion, then bye bye Swindle. At least it would slightly increase our own catchment area, I guess.

Rather than Swindon, Rovers going bust might be better for us getting more "fans of the future" if anyone could arrange it!

[Nibor]

Rather than Swindon, Rovers going bust might be better for us getting more "fans of the future" if anyone could arrange it!

Agent Dunceford appears to be doing his best.

£30m they ain't got to fund a risky development with little contingency on finance at 2% above the base rate secured on the promise of income from a rapidly diminishing rental market giving away ownership of key revenue generation assets during an economic slowdown... to increase a stadium capacity that they fill about once every 2 years.

Keep up the good work Geoff.

[Guest]

£2.8m St Modwyn

£3.0m Purchase of 75 per cent of stocks/shares.

£3.0m Loan from new investors to cover debts.

£8.0m Wills family in five annual instalments.

£1.2m Bill Power

£0.9m CVA

£1.8m Inland Revenue

£1.5m Day Creditors

£1.0m Additional Funding

-------------------------

£22.2m DEBTS

[WhistleHappy]

Despite accumulating a huge personal fortune through his business (in a relatively short time since the early 80's)

Steve Lansdown has remained a non flashy, down to earth, straightforward approachable kind of bloke.

It says an awful lot about the man when his proudest boast (I read it somewhere) is not to gloat about his own wealth but the fact that everyone of his employees (several hundred & their families) be it at HL or BCFC have always been paid on time and in full...

In this day & age of flash-harry self-centred bosses (specially in the worlds of hard nosed financial investment & the football business) that's an admirable achievement for someone in Steves position to have at the top of their list.

I think we (BCFC) are fortunate to have someone with those fundamental values running the show. It bodes well for the future stability of the club IMO.

[Crackers Corner]

Totally agree with the sentiments but Swindon have been in to admin twice already, relegated for financial irregularities too! If the proposed buy out falls through then they are in real trouble. According to a Swindon fan on football forums.net the next step after 2 entries in to admin is to declare the club bankrupt! As their ground is council owned, the clubs assets are a big fat zero which spells curtains doesn't it?

What I don't get is how the hell are Swindon allowed to sign players with their finances in such a state? Biily Paynter wouldn't have come cheap!

tim you know how much grief i get in that build room in swindon, i should be able to get a few low shots in to keep em quiet for a while

[ciderup]

Be in there with you Thursday mate, line 'em up and shoot 'em back down!

I might just mention it!

U REDS

[Guest]

GOAL............. Swindon 0- 3 Chelt o.g TOZER SHAME

[Rich]

Help us? They find 82 funny, so **** 'um

I agree , I would also like to know why the Wills family have invested £8 million of the money they earnt from south Bristol

into a poxy one horse towns football club and not a penny into City.

[ciderup]

Crikey!

Now Coventry are in it too! Posted by a Cov fan on football forums.net

Training ground - sold

Stadium - not ours, we are tennants.

£28 Million in debt with no assets.

Players to be sold in January - Mifsud, Ward, Doyle, Kyle (seven grand a week and hardly playing due to injurie and well being crap) Dowie also and any other decent players all at bargain prices due to administration and having to take the first offer.

We moved from HR when we didn't need too, we couldn't fill that stadium let alone a 32,000 state of the art stadium. HR didn't have the best facilities no but it was suitable for a club our size. It was sold years ago to a property development company (Wimpey) Our shares in the Ricoh were sold before we even moved into the ######er.

We have to get 30,000 each home game to BREAK EVEN.

Someone posted somewhere we are losing £8 odd a MINUTE. Doesn't sound a lot when you say it like that does it ?

Administration - Yes.

Relegation - Possibly but I belive the start we made could save us. If we can stave of administartion until Febuary (which is unlikely) therfore keeping the current squad we should be OK as far as relegation goes.

£28M now that is a BIG problem. How do clubs allow themselves to get in to this much trouble? Why can't the football authorities stop them doing it? (Leeds, Cardiff, Swindon, now Coventry).

[chinapig]

£28M now that is a BIG problem. How do clubs allow themselves to get in to this much trouble? Why can't the football authorities stop them doing it? (Leeds, Cardiff, Swindon, now Coventry).

Hear, hear! Surely clubs with a given level of debt (say compared to turnover) should be prevented from buying players for instance? Aren't Forest for example carrying a large debt yet they continue to shell out on fees and big wages?

[Nibor]

The problem is that irresponsible chairmen are in no way accountable. Running a club into the ground (or any business) and leaving creditors in the lurch is never punished. If these arrogant fat cats want million pound salaries and obscene bonuses then fine, but the law should enforce that they are similarly responsible.

That means if you take on a job with that level of responsibility and **** it up through wrecklessness, dishonesty or sheer incompetence your personal assetts should be seized and you should do serious prison time. It's the only way I can think of to put these bastards off trying it in the first place.

[swindlered]

£2.8m St Modwyn

£3.0m Purchase of 75 per cent of stocks/shares.

£3.0m Loan from new investors to cover debts.

£8.0m Wills family in five annual instalments.

£1.2m Bill Power

£0.9m CVA

£1.8m Inland Revenue

£1.5m Day Creditors

£1.0m Additional Funding

-------------------------

£22.2m DEBTS

Thats remarkable. How can you spend that amount of money and end up with Billy Paynter as your best player?