Its About Time To Have Another Academy Debate

[Guest ashtonyate]

Well you knew it would happen but I must say even the most pro academy fan must be wondering when the academy kids are going to be pushing for a seat on the bench. I have said at 200K the academy seems to be good value but now we have moved up a division it must make it even harder to make the break through for the youngsters.

We have had a good result beating Everton in the youth cup and I understand there are a good lot of youngster on the books but are they going to fair any better that J M Williams or Artus, Skuse is just about making it on to the bench but with the Ausse in now will he still be on the bench.

Since the conception of the Academy we have only a few players to move to the Prem Lita Rosenier and Cottrell who is not a regular member of Wigan side.

So the question must be ask are our youngster's good enough for the CC or Premiership

[robinmad]

Well you knew it would happen but I must say even the most pro academy fan must be wondering when the academy kids are going to be pushing for a seat on the bench. I have said at 200K the academy seems to be good value but now we have moved up a division it must make it even harder to make the break through for the youngsters.

We have had a good result beating Everton in the youth cup and I understand there are a good lot of youngster on the books but are they going to fair any better that J M Williams or Artus, Skuse is just about making it on to the bench but with the Ausse in now will he still be on the bench.

Since the conception of the Academy we have only a few players to move to the Prem Lita Rosenier and Cottrell who is not a regular member of Wigan side.

So the question must be ask are our youngster's good enough for the CC or Premiership

From what i have seen we have some very good youngsters coming through that i think will be given a chance at some point in the next couple of years , the best youngsters are given long contracts to keep them at the club and if the first team squad are doing well they have to remain patiant untill there time comes , there are not manY 18/19 year olds playing regular first team football in the CCC.

DC played for Wigan on Sat in the FA cup and scored s screamer from 20yds, LL and LR both started for Reading

Who would you drop out of the first team squad to make way for the youngsters?

One of the problems we have is the best some of the best youngsters at the club plat at Centre Back and centre Midfield where we are verys strong as a club

[Barrs Court Red]

The problem we have, is that given the posistion we are in the league, it is certainly not the time to mess about with untried youngsters. It's not fair on them for starters.

[Nibor]

Not getting into a long and pointless debate about the academy with AY again, suffice to say we're just in between batches at the moment and as we step up the leagues we have to produce a different kind of young player. The academy is already well in the black and will continue to prove it's worth in the future.

[Redhyde]

*Bites the bait* There is no evidence either way to the standard of our academy at first team level in the championship. If you look at the academy league table we sit in the middle.

The objective of any youth system is produce players for the first team. So we're clearly not doing something right in that respect. It's hard to play your own youth players when you're either struggling or challenging so they simply haven't had any match time in the last three years with the exception of Skuse and Myrie-Williams

Gary Johnson despite being an ex academy director hasn't had a great record of using youth players in his first team. However he brought a good few players through at Watford and if he stays here long enough i expect we will do. We're currently seeing Danny Wilson's and perhaps slightly before 9 year olds coming through and it's meant to be a good crop and apparently (although they always say it) it gets better the further down you go.

When you're a tier 3 club, you get tier 3 youngsters, the higher we go, the better standard of youth players we can steal *ahem* train. Our current reputation for playing technical football and producing players now gives us the best recruitment pitch we've had in years. As we continue to progress in our first team it generally follows that the academy follows suit. Eventually you'll reach a plateau where the players from the academy match up to the first team. That's what happened when we produced the recent lot, and because we've progressed on the pitch we've almost outgrown all but the very special few we have.

We're improving our structure, we've got a manager with youth team level experience and we're becoming the dominant force in the catchment area. The future is bright for our academy, even if we're not seeing the immediate benefits of it.

Edit - And Ay, can you do this just once a year so it'll be special like Christmas?

[Guest ashtonyate]

*Bites the bait* There is no evidence either way to the standard of our academy at first team level in the championship. If you look at the academy league table we sit in the middle.

The objective of any youth system is produce players for the first team. So we're clearly not doing something right in that respect. It's hard to play your own youth players when you're either struggling or challenging so they simply haven't had any match time in the last three years with the exception of Skuse and Myrie-Williams

Gary Johnson despite being an ex academy director hasn't had a great record of using youth players in his first team. However he brought a good few players through at Watford and if he stays here long enough i expect we will do. We're currently seeing Danny Wilson's and perhaps slightly before 9 year olds coming through and it's meant to be a good crop and apparently (although they always say it) it gets better the further down you go.

When you're a tier 3 club, you get tier 3 youngsters, the higher we go, the better standard of youth players we can steal *ahem* train. Our current reputation for playing technical football and producing players now gives us the best recruitment pitch we've had in years. As we continue to progress in our first team it generally follows that the academy follows suit. Eventually you'll reach a plateau where the players from the academy match up to the first team. That's what happened when we produced the recent lot, and because we've progressed on the pitch we've almost outgrown all but the very special few we have.

We're improving our structure, we've got a manager with youth team level experience and we're becoming the dominant force in the catchment area. The future is bright for our academy, even if we're not seeing the immediate benefits of it.

Edit - And Ay, can you do this just once a year so it'll be special like Christmas?

Contrary to what people think I think players you have produced give the Club and supporters and myself great satisfaction to see them come through the system and progress which in fairness has not happen to much in the past.

We had Tommy Docherty and friends but they were not the type of player you want at the club. It was only when Brian Tinnion and later on Gary Johnson weeded these players out that the club has started to move forward

I am sure that Gary Johnson keeps a eye on what goes on in the Academy and would not let player with bad habits stay in the Club

[Geoff65]

Well I think the academy is about obligiations and defining those obligations helps understanding of the aspect which is expectations.

Obligations:

To the youngster - we have an obligation to train and teach him how to be a skillful and successful player and his talent will determine at what level he will play at - that means if we produce 2 goalkeepers at the same time and we have two excellent goalkeepers in the first team then one youngster although he may be excellent maybe released and the other set for a number of months or years on the bench waiting for his oppertunity - it maybe to become number 2 goalkeeper at the age of 21 - 22 when one of the goalies contract expires or is transferred away. One of the obligiations that isnt there is to guarantee a first squad place or a chance in the first team - now if we go back a number of years when there wasnt any playoffs then the oppertunities naturally arised each and every year for a youngster to start in the first team for a month or two - those oppertunities are now gone but what can be said is that if we are comfortable in th championship and our chance of playoffs have gone then that gives a window of oppertunity for the youngsters to be played - but it still isnt an obligation from the club to do so.

Obligations to the club - well that's a funny ole one - and it is down to the youngster's personality rather than any else - the youngster has to be ultra committed and train hard, be disciplined and ideally loyal to the club but there is no obligation by the youngster to stay at the club - look at Theo Walcott - Southampton would have loved him to stay but his head was turned and it's 2 years later and still no premiership goals for the lad. We had a few who were loyal and some that decided they were better off elsewhere and their careers are well documented.

Obligation from the manager - well his obligation is to the club and to the fans and if when we are doing well it means that youngsters don't get a look in then that's fine, if when we are doing poorly and inexperience is not something he destires then again that is fine, if he thinks a youngster is good enough and plays him from the first day of the season then that's fine too - as it is fine to criticise the manger as a fan for his decisions. There is no obligation to use the academy as a resource but that is one he has to justify to the fans and the board when it arises.

Expectations

Well a youngster can expect a lot from an academy, coached well, train well, bring out their flair, develop their personality and some will expect to get a go in the first team, expectations are one of those things that have to be handled right and by the right person, if an agent decides to boost a player's expectations then their is not a lot the club can do about it - youngsters usually like lisstening to people who say nice things about them without the critism and discipline that they also need to hear too. If teh club does match up to their expectations then they have to make decisions. So expectations with youngsters in mind has to be part of the youth academy's director's job.

Manager's expectations from an academy - well can they expect a goal machine every year coupled with a roy keane midfieldedr and a Rio as a centre back too - of course they cant but they can expect the academy to do a well enough job to provide players for the manager to considedr to be part of the first team squad - whether they get a first team starting palce is down to the player and the players in front of them.

Fans expectations of the academy: well it's a personal matter but for me - if the right things are being taught and the correct man management of the youngsters is being provided and the occassional player makes it into our first team and an occasional player is sold for £1m+ then the academy is doing it's job, of course their is something called varience in these matters - as pointed out we got a clutch of central defenders coming through at the moment and that position is pretty much the most fiercely contested position we have. If we were comfortable in the league and no real chance of promotion then whose to say that Artus etc wouldnt be given the oppertunity - but variance also means that lady luck has to conincide with a youngsters ability and the right time for a youngster to be blooded.

Is the academy doing a good job - it appears to be, is the manager doing a good job - anyone have doubts on this? Does any of the youngsters have bigger expectations than we can offer - time will tell. Is anyone handling expectations fo the youngsters - I bloody well hope so. Are we and the youngsters fulfilling the obligations on each of them - I have no evidence to prove that we arent. Is variance proving to be a stumbling block for the youngsters to get in the team - well it's not an excellent time to be an academy central defender with expectations of playing in the first time any time soon and is variance in terms of oppertunities for the youngsters to be blooded pretty bad - fortunately with a promotion in the bag and a play off place influencing team selection for the rest of the season then yes variance is on the wrong side for the youngsters - but look on the brightside - everyone is doing their jobs to the best abilities and the club can be proud of the youngsters for the way they have developed and progress.

The academy - time for debate - I don't think there is any scope in my mind that having one is better than not having one, the debate maybe is the club meeting their obligations and I think they are and with the first team doing well and the academy side progressing in the youth cup and youngsters being avaialble for GJ to have in his squad and former academy palyers playing for us and for other teams you are going to have to come up with some very good reasons why you think the academy isn't doing it's job and/or how we are not meeting our obligations as a club to the youngsters.

[Guest ashtonyate]

Well I think the academy is about obligiations and defining those obligations helps understanding of the aspect which is expectations.

Obligations:

To the youngster - we have an obligation to train and teach him how to be a skillful and successful player and his talent will determine at what level he will play at - that means if we produce 2 goalkeepers at the same time and we have two excellent goalkeepers in the first team then one youngster although he may be excellent maybe released and the other set for a number of months or years on the bench waiting for his oppertunity - it maybe to become number 2 goalkeeper at the age of 21 - 22 when one of the goalies contract expires or is transferred away. One of the obligiations that isnt there is to guarantee a first squad place or a chance in the first team - now if we go back a number of years when there wasnt any playoffs then the oppertunities naturally arised each and every year for a youngster to start in the first team for a month or two - those oppertunities are now gone but what can be said is that if we are comfortable in th championship and our chance of playoffs have gone then that gives a window of oppertunity for the youngsters to be played - but it still isnt an obligation from the club to do so.

Obligations to the club - well that's a funny ole one - and it is down to the youngster's personality rather than any else - the youngster has to be ultra committed and train hard, be disciplined and ideally loyal to the club but there is no obligation by the youngster to stay at the club - look at Theo Walcott - Southampton would have loved him to stay but his head was turned and it's 2 years later and still no premiership goals for the lad. We had a few who were loyal and some that decided they were better off elsewhere and their careers are well documented.

Obligation from the manager - well his obligation is to the club and to the fans and if when we are doing well it means that youngsters don't get a look in then that's fine, if when we are doing poorly and inexperience is not something he destires then again that is fine, if he thinks a youngster is good enough and plays him from the first day of the season then that's fine too - as it is fine to criticise the manger as a fan for his decisions. There is no obligation to use the academy as a resource but that is one he has to justify to the fans and the board when it arises.

Expectations

Well a youngster can expect a lot from an academy, coached well, train well, bring out their flair, develop their personality and some will expect to get a go in the first team, expectations are one of those things that have to be handled right and by the right person, if an agent decides to boost a player's expectations then their is not a lot the club can do about it - youngsters usually like lisstening to people who say nice things about them without the critism and discipline that they also need to hear too. If teh club does match up to their expectations then they have to make decisions. So expectations with youngsters in mind has to be part of the youth academy's director's job.

Manager's expectations from an academy - well can they expect a goal machine every year coupled with a roy keane midfieldedr and a Rio as a centre back too - of course they cant but they can expect the academy to do a well enough job to provide players for the manager to considedr to be part of the first team squad - whether they get a first team starting palce is down to the player and the players in front of them.

Fans expectations of the academy: well it's a personal matter but for me - if the right things are being taught and the correct man management of the youngsters is being provided and the occassional player makes it into our first team and an occasional player is sold for £1m+ then the academy is doing it's job, of course their is something called varience in these matters - as pointed out we got a clutch of central defenders coming through at the moment and that position is pretty much the most fiercely contested position we have. If we were comfortable in the league and no real chance of promotion then whose to say that Artus etc wouldnt be given the oppertunity - but variance also means that lady luck has to conincide with a youngsters ability and the right time for a youngster to be blooded.

Is the academy doing a good job - it appears to be, is the manager doing a good job - anyone have doubts on this? Does any of the youngsters have bigger expectations than we can offer - time will tell. Is anyone handling expectations fo the youngsters - I bloody well hope so. Are we and the youngsters fulfilling the obligations on each of them - I have no evidence to prove that we arent. Is variance proving to be a stumbling block for the youngsters to get in the team - well it's not an excellent time to be an academy central defender with expectations of playing in the first time any time soon and is variance in terms of oppertunities for the youngsters to be blooded pretty bad - fortunately with a promotion in the bag and a play off place influencing team selection for the rest of the season then yes variance is on the wrong side for the youngsters - but look on the brightside - everyone is doing their jobs to the best abilities and the club can be proud of the youngsters for the way they have developed and progress.

The academy - time for debate - I don't think there is any scope in my mind that having one is better than not having one, the debate maybe is the club meeting their obligations and I think they are and with the first team doing well and the academy side progressing in the youth cup and youngsters being avaialble for GJ to have in his squad and former academy palyers playing for us and for other teams you are going to have to come up with some very good reasons why you think the academy isn't doing it's job and/or how we are not meeting our obligations as a club to the youngsters.

A very well written reply just a few points are we getting the first pick of the local youngster or are bigger teams sorting them out before we take them on.

Why I say that is Clubs like Middlesboro Ipswich west ham Arsenal to name but a few seem to get a greater amount of Academy players through to the first team.

Why is that are they picking up better players are they being coached better or what

[Guest Tafkar]

I don't like to question Gary's judgement, but I don't think it's a coincidence that only 1 youngster has been blooded in during his tenure, when during Tinnion's we saw Lita, Cotterill, Brown & Skuse rise to prominence, due in no small part down to his love of the academy. I don't think Johnson is willing to risk it, as Tinnion would have done.

[Roger Red Hat]

I don't like to question Gary's judgement, but I don't think it's a coincidence that only 1 youngster has been blooded in during his tenure, when during Tinnion's we saw Lita, Cotterill, Brown & Skuse rise to prominence, due in no small part down to his love of the academy. I don't think Johnson is willing to risk it, as Tinnion would have done.

When you compare the success of the two managers, maybe its easy to see why GJ does'nt take the risk.

[tompo]

[Guest ashtonyate]

[Guest Tafkar]

When you compare the success of the two managers, maybe its easy to see why GJ does'nt take the risk.

What has that got to do with the academy? All of the players Tinnion blooded in are either still around the first team or have gone on to better things, with the exception of Brown, who was a fans' favourite either way.

[RedUn]

Well you knew it would happen but I must say even the most pro academy fan must be wondering when the academy kids are going to be pushing for a seat on the bench.

Last week wasn't it? (Ribeiro vs Burnley)

[Roger Red Hat]

When you compare the success of the two managers, maybe its easy to see why GJ does'nt take the risk.

What has that got to do with the academy? All of the players Tinnion blooded in are either still around the first team or have gone on to better things, with the exception of Brown, who was a fans' favourite either way.

Manager Tinnion bloods academy players achieves.....the sack.

Manager Johnson does'nt blood academy players achieves.....promotion(maybe two).

Having said that I am a believer in the academy and hope we can bring some top drawer players through at some point.

[Mr Mosquito]

Well you knew it would happen but I must say even the most pro academy fan must be wondering when the academy kids are going to be pushing for a seat on the bench. I have said at 200K the academy seems to be good value but now we have moved up a division it must make it even harder to make the break through for the youngsters.

We have had a good result beating Everton in the youth cup and I understand there are a good lot of youngster on the books but are they going to fair any better that J M Williams or Artus, Skuse is just about making it on to the bench but with the Ausse in now will he still be on the bench.

Since the conception of the Academy we have only a few players to move to the Prem Lita Rosenier and Cottrell who is not a regular member of Wigan side.

So the question must be ask are our youngster's good enough for the CC or Premiership

I'm just glad that the club has now shifted resources and attention from the academy and into a top first team manager and a scouting network that is now bringing in quality players. As far as I'm concerned, a decent scouting network is a necessity and an academy a dodgy luxury with regard to bringing quality players into the first team.

[Guest Tafkar]

Manager Tinnion bloods academy players achieves.....the sack.

Manager Johnson does'nt blood academy players achieves.....promotion(maybe two).

Having said that I am a believer in the academy and hope we can bring some top drawer players through at some point.

I still don't believe that's the point. Tinnion blooded in players who were of a high enough quality to achieve, as they have done so after he left and some have gone on to bigger and better things. His sacking was due to his inability to manage the team, not his selection in terms of academy.

[Nibor]

I'm just glad that the club has now shifted resources and attention from the academy and into a top first team manager and a scouting network that is now bringing in quality players. As far as I'm concerned, a decent scouting network is a necessity and an academy a dodgy luxury with regard to bringing quality players into the first team.

Both are a necessity. The scouting network would have been useless without £2m from Dave Cotterill's sale. The academy has generated more money than it has cost by a large margin. It needs to produce a different sort of player for this level and hopefully the one beyond but it will.

[Mr Mosquito]

Both are a necessity. The scouting network would have been useless without £2m from Dave Cotterill's sale. The academy has generated more money than it has cost by a large margin. It needs to produce a different sort of player for this level and hopefully the one beyond but it will.

We certainly didn't need that £2million to buy the likes of McCombe who was a bargain buy that resulted from us having a decent scouting network. Bargain buys Byfield and Elliott must also have been the result of us having some decent scouts out there. A successful club can live without an academy but not without a decent scouting network.

[Nibor]

We certainly didn't need that £2million to buy the likes of McCombe who was a bargain buy that resulted from us having a decent scouting network. Bargain buys Byfield and Elliott must also have been the result of us having some decent scouts out there. A successful club can live without an academy but not without a decent scouting network.

RG if we'd had £2m less money we wouldn't have been signing players like Elliott, Byfield, McIndoe, Sproule, Trundle or Carle. They have cost near £3m in transfer fees and near £30k a week in wages. Successful clubs can't live without an academy, they are mandatory in the Premiership anyway. Any club that wants longstanding success has to develop young players, all of the very best clubs do this.

We need a blend of our own young players, talented signings and experienced pros.

Why on earth would you want to NOT have an academy when it MAKES MONEY anyway?

I think you've been listening to Ashtonyate and taking too much notice of his very dubious grasp of maths and imaginary figures.

[Guest ashtonyate]

RG if we'd had £2m less money we wouldn't have been signing players like Elliott, Byfield, McIndoe, Sproule, Trundle or Carle. They have cost near £3m in transfer fees and near £30k a week in wages. Successful clubs can't live without an academy, they are mandatory in the Premiership anyway. Any club that wants longstanding success has to develop young players, all of the very best clubs do this.

We need a blend of our own young players, talented signings and experienced pros.

Why on earth would you want to NOT have an academy when it MAKES MONEY anyway?

I think you've been listening to Ashtonyate and taking too much notice of his very dubious grasp of maths and imaginary figures.

I don't think that we have made that much money out of the Academy if you take everything into consideration but that was not the point of this thread

The point is are the youngster good enough now we gone up a league and helpfully two by the end of the season as we have not had many coming through in the recent past. Are we getting good enough kids in and are we getting quality player out good enough to make themselves a career at City.

[Nibor]

I don't think that we have made that much money out of the Academy if you take everything into consideration but that was not the point of this thread

I think the facts prove you wrong.

The point is are the youngster good enough now we gone up a league and helpfully two by the end of the season as we have not had many coming through in the recent past. Are we getting good enough kids in and are we getting quality player out good enough to make themselves a career at City.

We had JMW last season and Cotterill who we sold, Skuse is in the 16 normally.

We have Artus and Ribeiro who look like being the next ones to make a breakthrough and Plummer behind them.

We were battling for promotion last season so GJ didn't throw young players in and whilst we have a chance of it this season I doubt he will either. It's not easy to introduce them as the pressure mounts.

We will need to gear the academy to produce a different sort of player but then the academy and scouting staff know that and will do.

[Guest ashtonyate]

I think the facts prove you wrong.

We had JMW last season and Cotterill who we sold, Skuse is in the 16 normally.

We have Artus and Ribeiro who look like being the next ones to make a breakthrough and Plummer behind them.

We were battling for promotion last season so GJ didn't throw young players in and whilst we have a chance of it this season I doubt he will either. It's not easy to introduce them as the pressure mounts.

We will need to gear the academy to produce a different sort of player but then the academy and scouting staff know that and will do.

I don't think JMW is going to make it here and would not be surprised if he signed for a lower league side.

Skuse has not made much headway yet or as much headway as i would have liked and there is still a big question mark hanging over him in my judgement.

Cottrell well what can you say about that 2 million well over priced but time will tell.

What I am waiting for is the next lot Artus and co to come on the scene well they make the grade from what I have heard they are the bees knees.

But we have seen it all before if the next batch does not make the grade even you must start to wonder about where we go from here

[Nibor]

I don't think JMW is going to make it here and would not be surprised if he signed for a lower league side.

Skuse has not made much headway yet or as much headway as i would have liked and there is still a big question mark hanging over him in my judgement.

Cottrell well what can you say about that 2 million well over priced but time will tell.

What I am waiting for is the next lot Artus and co to come on the scene well they make the grade from what I have heard they are the bees knees.

But we have seen it all before if the next batch does not make the grade even you must start to wonder about where we go from here

You seen to be ignoring the fact that the grade they need to make has changed, but anyway I am sure the academy will continue to make money and product players that play in the first team just like it has for a long time.

[Guest ashtonyate]

You seen to be ignoring the fact that the grade they need to make has changed, but anyway I am sure the academy will continue to make money and product players that play in the first team just like it has for a long time.

That's the point i am saying we have moved up a division and may be two by the end of the season.

Are you telling me we say to young kids in the past sorry your too good for us because we play in the third division go and play for a better club.

I have said many times are the kids we get first pick over by better club and we get what are discarded which is perhaps the reason they are not making it into the first team.

Because I don't hold to the argument that the time is not right to blood youngsters better standard teams than City manage to do it.

You may be happy with the amount of young players coming through but the last player to really make an impact was Lita and that was nearly 3 year ago

[Nibor]

That's the point i am saying we have moved up a division and may be two by the end of the season.

Are you telling me we say to young kids in the past sorry your too good for us because we play in the third division go and play for a better club.

In lower league football the emphasis would have been more on the more physical players I'm sure and that will probably need to change.

I have said many times are the kids we get first pick over by better club and we get what are discarded which is perhaps the reason they are not making it into the first team.

And you have been wrong every time you've said it.

Because I don't hold to the argument that the time is not right to blood youngsters better standard teams than City manage to do it.

I would tend to agree and would like to have seen Artus and Ribeiro involved however you can't argue with GJ's results. I suspect that they will still play a part this season.

You may be happy with the amount of young players coming through but the last player to really make an impact was Lita and that was nearly 3 year ago

The academy can always improve but it has made a positive contribution to the club despite what you think and will continue to do so. Players like Cotterill and Skuse have made an impact and others will make bigger ones in future.

It's crystal clear just from looking at the figures that the academy has contributed and when you consider that ex academy players have played over 500 times for the first team on top of the money we've got from them any argument that it is not a good thing is completely laughable.

You've been harping on about the academy forever, it's boring, there is nothing new to add to the debate so I'm done with it until there is.

[Geoff65]

The question you're asking is - is it more difficult for an academy player to brak into the first team - and the answer is yes - who was the last Man Utd academy lad to get into their team as a regular? Wes Brown springs to mind but he is 28 years of age now - so the answer to the question is - yes it is harder the better the first team plays for an academy player to get into the team.

Can we do anything to improve the number of players coming through and staying in the first team? Well I think the answer is no (other than get the best academy coaches etc... - lets get Ajax youth coach in !). Te reason the answer is no is that is it about talent - the academy player has got to have talent and the better the first team does the better the talent has to be. Are we attracting the kids with talent - I would have thought but kids are kids - I'm not sure at what age they start in the academy but there is a long long road for them from being the kid with talent to the kid who plays in the first team.

Should we be concerned that the number of players coming through don't reach the first team - well from an economical stand point - it appears not - whilst there is a shed load of dosh sloshing about then chairmen will pay over the odds for our kids - Cotteril , in your mind might not be worth £2m but someone paid it - if wigan hadnt paid it then norwich would have paid £1m - reality is that regardless of what we consider someone or something is worth then if people will pay the price then that's reallity (do you think popcorn and drink in cinemas are good value or over priced - I think they are a rip off - but people pay). So opinion when it comes to the economic side of the academy debate is rather mute - it's about pounds spent and pounds re-couped and whilst the players might not get into our side, they will get into others and teams pay for the privildge (take a look at Man U and the kids they have let go - ebanks at plymouth, Rossi for a few million to the spanish side etc...).

I discussed the other aspects of the academt regarding responsibilities and expectations but the answer to your question is - yes it is harder for academy lads to get into the first team as we go up the divisions, can we do anything about that? it's down to the individual's talent - do we keep the academy or worry about it - well we keep it because from an economic stance we make money out of it - do we worry - yes of course we worry - we all worry about kids and their futures when we have something invested in them.

[Wilse]

[Guest ashtonyate]

In lower league football the emphasis would have been more on the more physical players I'm sure and that will probably need to change.

And you have been wrong every time you've said it.

I would tend to agree and would like to have seen Artus and Ribeiro involved however you can't argue with GJ's results. I suspect that they will still play a part this season.

The academy can always improve but it has made a positive contribution to the club despite what you think and will continue to do so. Players like Cotterill and Skuse have made an impact and others will make bigger ones in future.

It's crystal clear just from looking at the figures that the academy has contributed and when you consider that ex academy players have played over 500 times for the first team on top of the money we've got from them any argument that it is not a good thing is completely laughable.

You've been harping on about the academy forever, it's boring, there is nothing new to add to the debate so I'm done with it until there is.

Most of that 500 games were in the Docherty period which i don't think fans will want to dwell on to much as those players were played to try to justify to money that was being spent on the Academy and the club suffered for years.

Its only now that the club has started to move forward with a good scouting network. Well it may be boring to you but ever part of the Club needs to be under scrutiny to make sure its doing the best for the Club.

[Guest Tafkar]

The Doherty period of Matt Hill, Danny Coles, Leroy Lita (who we wouldn't have picked up without an academy), Liam Rosenior, Louis Carey, Steve Phillips... Yeah, awful memories.