Qpr Yesterday

[rumbellow]

i'm glad Nibor has decided to insult me over the way the Police acted yesterday, it is in fact ironic. i'm sure there are many on the forum who will remember the game I am about to describe. A long story but here goes.

About 7 or 8 seasons ago City's 5th match of the season was against QPR at good old Loftus Road, City had won their first 4 games and the now failed ITV2 decided to screen it live on a thursday night, Despite the talk in the local press and on this forum about the huge following that City were going to take, The Met decided that we only going to take 1,600 and the decision was made to only open the top tier of the away end.

About 3,000 or so made the journey that night, including yours truly. Having got to the ground at about 7.10pm, The queues were huge and the 2 turnstiles were failing to cope and people were quite rightly getting arsey, I eventually got into the ground 20 minutes after the kick off.

I was directed to the top tier, where there were no longer any seats, I was told by a steward to sit in the gangway, I politely told him that was against the law, the police were called, A PC then a Sergeant and finally an Inspector, I kept asking to see the ground commander (by the way I had not explained to the officers who or what I was) I was really pissed off, it was fast approaching halftime by now and I would estimate some 150 to 200 City fans were being put in the same predicament as me.

I was taken to the lower tier where a long arguement ensued, I told the inspector, I was not going to sit in the gangway, I would happily sit in the lower tier, He told me that there were insufficient stewards to open the lower tier, I then asked for a full refund. I was also told that the ground commander was refusing to come to the away end to sort this mess out. At this stage after a discussion between the Inspector and the Sergeant who grabbed hold of me, I assume either to arrest or eject me and I must admit by now I had decided this was a principle worth the hassle.

At this point 2 things happend, Firstly about 50 City fans pushed the Police and stewards out of the way and started to invade the lower tier, The Police decided the better part of valour and all that and City fans were allowed into the lower tier, Also at this point a middle aged man who had been party to most of the arguing identified himself to the Police officers, As a BCFC supporting Met Police Inspector and that he would be making a full report of the nights incidents to the officers superiors in the morning, At this point I was let go of and BCFC supporting Met Inspector started to take the collar numbers of all the officers present. I wondered off and found a nice seat.

2 minutes later it was halftime and the BCFC supporting Met Inspector joined me and asked me if was in the Police as well and if I would be willing to report the incident in full, We exchanged names and addresses.

I sent him a 5 page report outlining the lack of Police intelligence on the night, the Police ordering people to break the law and sit in the gangways, The reluctance to open the lower tier and the non appearance of the ground commander and also added a caviat that it appeared that very little had been learned from Hillsborough judging by the way this game had been Policed.

As a result of mine and the other Inspectors intervention into this matter several things occurred.

Firstly part of the problem were 20 seats either side of the top tier that had restricted view due to the floodlight pylons, The club were ordered to remove them, The ground commander was put out to grass and also the Stadium manager was forced to tender his resignation, I was sent a full report of the joint Police and Council enquiry, The club were severely censured over this incident.

So 'forum poster of the year' Nibor, You don't know me, But unlike you I just don't moan on this forum about treatment at football matches, I actually try to do something constructive about it and I will also tell you this is not the only time I have complained about the treatment by Police at Football matches, Why because I am also a member of the public. What have you ever achieved in this field?.

So Nibor if you want to continue your quest to become popular by sounding 'hard' with words like 'the filth', leave me out of it cos you don't know me.

These incidents really ###### up my career, I never got invited to become a mason.

[Nibor]

My my, you're a little precious aren't you? Not to mention hypocritical.

You take exception to someone using a general term like "the filth" not directed at you personally and yet you're quite happy to call me a liar and a fraud and make petty little digs despite knowing sod all about me. No wonder some of us have bad impressions of the police.

I've explained to you in a previous thread that every time I've had reason to speak to or be spoken to by the police at a football match I've been treated like a hooligan. I don't really give a toss whether you believe me or not.

I've complained to the police twice about different incidents, one was excessive force and the other neglect of duty. Neither time did they even follow their own code of practise and ask me to be interviewed despite me giving lapel numbers and exact times with the incidents being certainly covered by CCTV.

Whilst I applaud the actions you describe in your post I suggest that were you and the other complainant not coppers the outcome would perhaps have been different. Perhaps when you ask "what have you ever achieved in this field?" you should have a mind to the fact that in many cases it is impossible for a member of the public to achieve anything.

I understand that as a (ex?) copper you will want to defend your colleagues but if you think the way football away fans in general are treated by the police is OK then you're in a minority.

[rumbellow]

My my, you're a little precious aren't you? Not to mention hypocritical.

You take exception to someone using a general term like "the filth" not directed at you personally and yet you're quite happy to call me a liar and a fraud and make petty little digs despite knowing sod all about me. No wonder some of us have bad impressions of the police.

I've explained to you in a previous thread that every time I've had reason to speak to or be spoken to by the police at a football match I've been treated like a hooligan. I don't really give a toss whether you believe me or not.

I've complained to the police twice about different incidents, one was excessive force and the other neglect of duty. Neither time did they even follow their own code of practise and ask me to be interviewed despite me giving lapel numbers and exact times with the incidents being certainly covered by CCTV.

Whilst I applaud the actions you describe in your post I suggest that were you and the other complainant not coppers the outcome would perhaps have been different. Perhaps when you ask "what have you ever achieved in this field?" you should have a mind to the fact that in many cases it is impossible for a member of the public to achieve anything.

I understand that as a (ex?) copper you will want to defend your colleagues but if you think the way football away fans in general are treated by the police is OK then you're in a minority.

Me precious never, My problem with you is your blanket assumption that all coppers are bad, That is pathetic as is calling Police (as a whole) the filth, As I explained before there are good and bad in every profession, i'm sure even in yours, I had a bad experience with the NHS but don't think all NHS staff are filth, That would be pathetic.

As for your complaints, The world works like this, If you get bad service you complain (you get a letter of apology) the company does nothing, If you complain a second time the company will attempt to fob you off with a crap offer (to hopefully make you go away) and believe me many do go away at this stage, If you complain a third time they will realise that you won't go away and they will listen and negotiate. If you are prepared to give up at the first hurdle, That is what they want. If your third attempt fails don't give up, If you are in the right fight it and see it through until you get a satisfactory resolution, That is the problem people have bad experiences with the Police, NHS, Holiday companies, insurance companies, the DSS, etc, etc, etc, All of these institutions work on the expectation that you will give up early and go away, Never ever give up, There are always avenues that can be examined.

I had to fight a judicial review in the high court in London in a case against the Police, Because I was right and they weren't, they expected that the pressure they put on me would make me give up, After 18 months I won and they were landed with a £55k legal bill in a case they had no chance of winning, But they thought I would give up and I never will, You see I love a good argument.

[Riaz]

My problem with you is your blanket assumption that all coppers are bad

90% ARE! What I wanna know is why did you decide to become a copper? Bullied at school?

[rumbellow]

90% ARE! What I wanna know is why did you decide to become a copper? Bullied at school?

Wow what an intelligent response, Poster of the year material.

[Scroobs]

90% ARE! What I wanna know is why did you decide to become a copper? Bullied at school?

Yep agree with that - and living with a Met TSG officer I can confirm that he'll also confirm 90% are thugs and are in-fact very, very bad.

[Riaz]

Wow what an intelligent response, Poster of the year material.

I'll take that as a yes then! don't talk to me about intelligence, I've not met one police officer with a ounce of intelligence!

[Nibor]

Me precious never, My problem with you is your blanket assumption that all coppers are bad, That is pathetic as is calling Police (as a whole) the filth, As I explained before there are good and bad in every profession, i'm sure even in yours, I had a bad experience with the NHS but don't think all NHS staff are filth, That would be pathetic.

I've never said that all coppers are bad, so your problem is actually with an assumption you have made not one I have. The filth is a slang term that has been used for decades and I was being tongue in cheek so please accept my apologies on that front.

I've said quite clearly and specifically that every time I have had reason to speak to or be spoken to by a copper as a football fan I've been treated like a hooligan. This is completely true and it's what leaves me with the impression that the way football fans are treated by the police is wrong.

I watch a fair bit of rugby (not my sport but my family are into it). I've never once had a copper be anything but completely polite and helpful at a rugby match. Nor have I had a problem with the police when reporting a car being nicked or a break in, or when they were doing door to door about a nearby shooting.

Do you think that it's just slightly possible that football fans do often get a raw deal from police just because they're football fans? I can't see any other reason for the difference in attitude I've experienced from the police other than the setting myself.

As for your complaints, The world works like this, If you get bad service you complain (you get a letter of apology) the company does nothing, If you complain a second time the company will attempt to fob you off with a crap offer (to hopefully make you go away) and believe me many do go away at this stage, If you complain a third time they will realise that you won't go away and they will listen and negotiate. If you are prepared to give up at the first hurdle, That is what they want. If your third attempt fails don't give up, If you are in the right fight it and see it through until you get a satisfactory resolution, That is the problem people have bad experiences with the Police, NHS, Holiday companies, insurance companies, the DSS, etc, etc, etc, All of these institutions work on the expectation that you will give up early and go away, Never ever give up, There are always avenues that can be examined.

I'm sorry but complaining to a government commission specifically intended for that purpose should bear no relation whatsoever to the normal shoddy customer care process that most businesses have. We're talking about people who are supposed to be employed to protect the public and uphold the law, it's a bit different to having a faulty TV.

There is a published legal procedure for handling police complaints and in both instances I've used it they did not follow it and did not answer when asked why not. I gave up, yes, because it simply wasn't worth the time and effort it was obviously going to take to get any sort of resolution to me. I was left with a very jaded view of the police as a result and I've seen little to change it since.

The number of obstacles that can be put in the way of anyone complaining and the expense in both financial terms and time they can be forced to go to puts reasonable recourse beyond many people and there is no doubt in my mind that is part of the reason the police behave like they do when dealing with football fans. They're almost always untouchable and they know it.

I had to fight a judicial review in the high court in London in a case against the Police, Because I was right and they weren't, they expected that the pressure they put on me would make me give up, After 18 months I won and they were landed with a £55k legal bill in a case they had no chance of winning, But they thought I would give up and I never will, You see I love a good argument.

Good stuff but did you not do this at the expense of much time investment and great financial risk that may well be far beyond the means of the average person?

[BristolCity1992]

Some coppers can be fine are really polite and helpful. Some are complete #### sadly these are the ones you will find at Football on a saturday and in Towns a few hours after the football just looking for the smallest reason to give a drunk a good clip round the ear hole.

[Riaz]

Some coppers can be fine are really polite and helpful. Some are complete #### sadly these are the ones you will find at Football on a saturday and in Towns a few hours after the football just looking for the smallest reason to give a drunk a good clip round the ear hole.

And it don't take one of them, no, they have to out number you too, because they are cowards.

[BristolCity1992]

They know they are untouchable under the uniform I have watched from a far and had the pleasure of speaking to one copper on a saturday night about some of them and he said himself that alot of them are only interested in how much "Action" they can get.

No doubt if you got them one on one down a ally without their backup they would not be so "Up for it"

Of course I understand that not all coppers are bad and I would not want their job because I am sure we would all find it hard to put up with a drunken 6ft guy swearing at us. However that is what they are paid to do if they decide to take the saturday night shift.

Ever read the book by "David Copperfield".

[Mr Mosquito]

i'm glad Nibor has decided to insult me over the way the Police acted yesterday, it is in fact ironic. i'm sure there are many on the forum who will remember the game I am about to describe. A long story but here goes.

I think the Loftus Road QPR game you're describing was circa mid September 2001 and I just managed to get into see the start of the game after queueing for about 40 minutes. It ended 0-0 if I remember right and I was at the back of the upper tier that evening.

For reasons that remain unclear at present the police now seem to be openly being used as a government weapon against football supporters. I've not failed to notice that football police are now often fully and elaborately equipped with riot gear, horses, dogs, riot vans, helicopters and even spotter aircraft on matchdays. The image of the "Bobby", the friendly community police officer, is now slowly but surely being destroyed. Ultimately, the function of the police is not to give traffic directions or help old ladies across the road but to enforce the will of the government. We, as football supporters, are now at the boot end of this government 'will'.