Today's Headline News

[fka dagest]

BBC News (who else?)

Anyone disagree?

Nice publicity stunt Saxe...oops the Windsors!

[Barrs Court Red]

Fair play to him. He wanted to prove himself and has.

No matter how much sneering will now come from the left, the fact remains that a young man has done his duty, the same as thousands of others have. It is a shame the media could not keep their mouths shut.

[Nibor]

Publicity stunt accusations are so lame and obvious.

The lad has said all through his life that he wants to be a soldier, I don't find it hard to believe him.

I'm amazed it took this long for the story to be leaked, it's a pity that the likely result will be that he can't serve any more because of the risk it puts others at.

[fka dagest]

Well, I must admit I do recall him dressing up in Nazi uniform for a social gathering. Mind you I suppose he was only following the example of some of his ancestors.

Anyway, I wasn't suggesting anything about his ambitions or desires but rather the likelihood of his being put anywhere near danger.

Only "working class" kids get near the fighting.

[Mr Mosquito]

Well, I must admit I do recall him dressing up in Nazi uniform for a social gathering. Mind you I suppose he was only following the example of some of his ancestors.

Anyway, I wasn't suggesting anything about his ambitions or desires but rather the likelihood of his being put anywhere near danger.

Only "working class" kids get near the fighting.

This country's Royalist administration would never risk senior Royalist lives in the front line.

I'd just like to draw attention to the letter in last Saturday's Bristol Evening Post (dated 23rd February 2008) on page 10 where Sarah Creagh outlines the fact that children as young as 16 are still being lured into the British Army. We're the only European country that recruits children as young as 16 into our armed forces she wrote - these children can't drink or vote but they can be sent to war. We're currently in a situation of economic conscription where recruitment in schools takes place in the most disadvantaged areas so that it really will only be "working class" kids that'll end up doing all the fighting and dying.

[Barrs Court Red]

This country's Royalist administration would never risk senior Royalist lives in the front line.

I'd just like to draw attention to the letter in last Saturday's Bristol Evening Post (dated 23rd February 2008) on page 10 where Sarah Creagh outlines the fact that children as young as 16 are still being lured into the British Army. We're the only European country that recruits children as young as 16 into our armed forces she wrote - these children can't drink or vote but they can be sent to war. We're currently in a situation of economic conscription where recruitment in schools takes place in the most disadvantaged areas so that it really will only be "working class" kids that'll end up doing all the fighting and dying.

Wrong. No under 18's can be sent to a war zone

[bucksred]

This country's Royalist administration would never risk senior Royalist lives in the front line.

I'd just like to draw attention to the letter in last Saturday's Bristol Evening Post (dated 23rd February 2008) on page 10 where Sarah Creagh outlines the fact that children as young as 16 are still being lured into the British Army. We're the only European country that recruits children as young as 16 into our armed forces she wrote - these children can't drink or vote but they can be sent to war. We're currently in a situation of economic conscription where recruitment in schools takes place in the most disadvantaged areas so that it really will only be "working class" kids that'll end up doing all the fighting and dying.

Gobbers, you obviously know c**k all about the British Armed Forces. If you took the time to read the roll of officers, in the Army in particular, you would know that fact is blatantly inaccurate. two thirds of the officers in the Guards Division (including Prince Harry's outfit)are blue bloods, and have always regularly been sent to war (as one of the elite formations in the Army). some of them go on to serve in the SAS and SBS with distinction, and you don't get more front line than serving with them

British troops are NOT, sent to a war zone until they are 18. Fact. They can legitimately join up at 16, and have been able to do so since the sixties (Perhaps earlier), as boy soldiers/apprentices, but are not allowed to go on operations till they are 18. Sarah Creagh is being disingenuous with her facts. I have served, and know many, many still doing so, and they don't go till they meet the magic majority.

And if you cant hack it in the forces, you wont make it into the front line anyway( 2 years will soon see what you're made of). Economic conscription my arse. Every single one of us who has ever been in, will join up, or is currently serving is a volunteer. It has been thus since the early '60's when National Service was abolished, the first modern Armed Forces to do so. No ex National Service Personnel remain in the forces today. Those that dis have all retired.

[Mr Mosquito]

Economic conscription my arse.

My Grandfather joined the RAF in the 1930's because there simply were no jobs - as a last resort to survive the economic depression. It's the same these days for the youth of England where Prince Harry - probably not a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha but a Hewitt - is being used by the media as a Senior Royalist recruiting Sergeant for our current adventures in Iraq/Afghanistan.

Can you clarify exactly as to how many sons and daughters of our war mongering Members of Parliament have their sons and daughters serving in Iraq/Afghanistan?

[bucksred]

My Grandfather joined the RAF in the 1930's because there simply were no jobs - as a last resort to survive the economic depression. It's the same these days for the youth of England where Prince Harry - probably not a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha but a Hewitt - is being used by the media as a Senior Royalist recruiting Sergeant for our current adventures in Iraq/Afghanistan.

Can you clarify exactly as to how many sons and daughters of our war mongering Members of Parliament have their sons and daughters serving in Iraq/Afghanistan?

You go in the Armed Forces by CHOICE. At no point are you FORCED to go and sign on the dotted line. indeed when I joined, I had a three month period immediately after joining, in which, if I felt it was not for me, I could leave, no questions asked. You know exactly what it involves when you do go in, as your Granddad would have done. You know if you join the British Armed Forces you have a better than 60% chance of being involved with war, and has been that way for decades. Teeth arms of the Army, Marines and RAF aircrew in particular have always been involved.

You no doubt voted for your Socialist MP in Bristol, and you know you have a choice at the next election. If everyone agrees with your worldview, said MP is out on his/her arse, simple. If your fellow voters don't agree, then its tough, because the majority diagreed against you. THATS democracy in action.

As to MP's serving at least three have service behind them, Patrick Mercer (Army) David Davis (TA SAS) and Paddy Pantsdown (Marines), and I think Mercers son may well be doing so.

Yer average Socialists would rather appease then actually do anything like serving, and besides of which a large number of them aint old enough to have their kids old enough to serve.

Besides aint many lawyers serve, and even less who spend their entire lives being part of the party machine.

And besides life is never fair, is it?

Did you ever think of serving your country? Once I did join up, I KNEW I made the right choice with my life

[Mr Mosquito]

Yer average Socialists would rather appease then actually do anything like serving, and besides of which a large number of them aint old enough to have their kids old enough to serve.

Besides aint many lawyers serve, and even less who spend their entire lives being part of the party machine.

Did you ever think of serving your country?

Can you clarify exactly as to how many sons and daughters of our war mongering Members of Parliament have their sons and daughters serving in Iraq/Afghanistan? There must be almost a 1,000 children of the 600 or so MP's aged 16 and upwards and eligible for front line service. How many are involved in the war that their parents are so keen to pursue?

You're pretty derogatory toward Socialists. Cuba is a Socialist regime and for 50 years they've had one of the best military, social health care, and education systems in the world. All this despite a trade embargo set in place by the USA. Most of the armed forces of this country returning from various theatres of war after World War 2 voted for a Labour Socialist government and therefore the National Health Service.

[fka dagest]

You go in the Armed Forces by CHOICE. At no point are you FORCED to go and sign on the dotted line. indeed when I joined, I had a three month period immediately after joining, in which, if I felt it was not for me, I could leave, no questions asked. You know exactly what it involves when you do go in, as your Granddad would have done. You know if you join the British Armed Forces you have a better than 60% chance of being involved with war, and has been that way for decades. Teeth arms of the Army, Marines and RAF aircrew in particular have always been involved.

You no doubt voted for your Socialist MP in Bristol, and you know you have a choice at the next election. If everyone agrees with your worldview, said MP is out on his/her arse, simple. If your fellow voters don't agree, then its tough, because the majority diagreed against you. THATS democracy in action.

As to MP's serving at least three have service behind them, Patrick Mercer (Army) David Davis (TA SAS) and Paddy Pantsdown (Marines), and I think Mercers son may well be doing so.

Yer average Socialists would rather appease then actually do anything like serving, and besides of which a large number of them aint old enough to have their kids old enough to serve.

Besides aint many lawyers serve, and even less who spend their entire lives being part of the party machine.

And besides life is never fair, is it?

Did you ever think of serving your country? Once I did join up, I KNEW I made the right choice with my life

And you call me patronising. Unbelievable. You like to paint Socialists as cowardly, naive, teenagers. Perhaps you should think of the example of the Spanish Civil War where many Socialists and Anarchists died fighting the emerging Fascism. And let's not forget many of those Socialists/Anarchist who weren't rounded up and machined gunned, were placed in French Concentration Camps. And what were your precious US doing? Looking askance and refusing to even sell weapons to the Republic.

I don't think anyone is denying the existence of "free will", but your social position will determine the choices you have in life.

As for Harry being a "hero" I've never heard of anything so ridiculous. It's quite clear the whole thing is a classic publicity stunt. Pot smoking, nazi uniform wearing, bouncer fighting, young drunk becomes...young war hero!

[Mr Mosquito]

As for Harry being a "hero" I've never heard of anything so ridiculous. It's quite clear the whole thing is a classic publicity stunt. Pot smoking, nazi uniform wearing, bouncer fighting, young drunk becomes...young war hero!

Prince Harry is a typical example of a public school educated Toff. Why can't our state media, that is the BBC, give a mention to 'front line' staff heroes serving our country in our NHS hospitals and in local Government - and they're on low pay and they certainly don't live in palaces at tax payers' expense. :noexpression:

[bucksred]

And you call me patronising. Unbelievable. You like to paint Socialists as cowardly, naive, teenagers. Perhaps you should think of the example of the Spanish Civil War where many Socialists and Anarchists died fighting the emerging Fascism. And let's not forget many of those Socialists/Anarchist who weren't rounded up and machined gunned, were placed in French Concentration Camps. And what were your precious US doing? Looking askance and refusing to even sell weapons to the Republic.

I don't think anyone is denying the existence of "free will", but your social position will determine the choices you have in life.

As for Harry being a "hero" I've never heard of anything so ridiculous. It's quite clear the whole thing is a classic publicity stunt. Pot smoking, nazi uniform wearing, bouncer fighting, young drunk becomes...young war hero!

Correction socialista are not naive youngsters, just gullible, misguided, and narrow minded, actually. As in about the International brigade, you so lovingly mention. they went to Spain, badly trained, even worse led, to fight the evil fascists, ignoring the communists who were doing exactly what Hitler and Mussolinis Fascists were doing, trying out their weapons of war.

socialists are naive, because they only see evil on the right (or the USA/Israel/South Africa etc etc) They never see the evils of communism. as in the lack of a CND in the Rodina or associated states, as in seeing the Yanks as the cause of the Cold War. Power Politics.

My "precious USA" as you put it had the good sense to stay out of a clusterfk of a war, led by extremists on all sides. the same "precious USA" that gave the Ivans the vehicles they needed to supply their tank armies in WW2

Aint my precious USA as you put it either. I have no particular love lost for them at all, although if its a choice between a Socialist or a Yank, the Yank wins..I just find the pathetic cheap anti Americanism from the likes of you pathetic. I'd be interested to know what you would do instead.

You make your own chances in life, aint no one else going to do it for you. The human gene, survival of the strongest. Your choice if you choose to wallow in self pity moaning about the lack of chances. The only thing this country didnt do right IMHO is the shite awful education system, which socialists destroyed to make the Comprehensive system here. Thats got eff all to do with toffs and snobs, it just shows they aint dumb enough to accept the sub standard education on offer here, unlike the masses.

Aint me who said he was a hero, hes done a very good job in a hostile environment, like many other troopers. the heroes are those who are wounded, and have to put up with sub standard hospital wards in Birmingham, where Taleban supporting Muslims make threats and problems for them, and have to wait behind NHS queues for treatment, because Socialist Governments closed down their top grade hospitals (and remember that Jamie Cooper got MRSA in the UK, not in the battlefield hospital he was initially treated in), and get cheap labour by having the military medics covering weekend duties to save a few quid.

And you would be surprised how military service, particularly active services straightens young tearaways out. I know I was one of them, headed for a life of crime, till I joined up.

[KevinC]

Pot smoking, nazi uniform wearing, bouncer fighting, young drunk becomes...

Premiership footballer

[fka dagest]

Correction socialista are not naive youngsters, just gullible, misguided, and narrow minded, actually. As in about the International brigade, you so lovingly mention. they went to Spain, badly trained, even worse led, to fight the evil fascists, ignoring the communists who were doing exactly what Hitler and Mussolinis Fascists were doing, trying out their weapons of war.

socialists are naive, because they only see evil on the right (or the USA/Israel/South Africa etc etc) They never see the evils of communism. as in the lack of a CND in the Rodina or associated states, as in seeing the Yanks as the cause of the Cold War. Power Politics.

My "precious USA" as you put it had the good sense to stay out of a clusterfk of a war, led by extremists on all sides. the same "precious USA" that gave the Ivans the vehicles they needed to supply their tank armies in WW2

Aint my precious USA as you put it either. I have no particular love lost for them at all, although if its a choice between a Socialist or a Yank, the Yank wins..I just find the pathetic cheap anti Americanism from the likes of you pathetic. I'd be interested to know what you would do instead.

You make your own chances in life, aint no one else going to do it for you. The human gene, survival of the strongest. Your choice if you choose to wallow in self pity moaning about the lack of chances. The only thing this country didnt do right IMHO is the shite awful education system, which socialists destroyed to make the Comprehensive system here. Thats got eff all to do with toffs and snobs, it just shows they aint dumb enough to accept the sub standard education on offer here, unlike the masses.

Aint me who said he was a hero, hes done a very good job in a hostile environment, like many other troopers. the heroes are those who are wounded, and have to put up with sub standard hospital wards in Birmingham, where Taleban supporting Muslims make threats and problems for them, and have to wait behind NHS queues for treatment, because Socialist Governments closed down their top grade hospitals (and remember that Jamie Cooper got MRSA in the UK, not in the battlefield hospital he was initially treated in), and get cheap labour by having the military medics covering weekend duties to save a few quid.

And you would be surprised how military service, particularly active services straightens young tearaways out. I know I was one of them, headed for a life of crime, till I joined up.

I suppose a Socialist would say much the same about a Conservative, you know "naive, narrow-minded etc". After all life is simply about opinions; there are no right or wrong ones. Hmm...you know I wouldn't describe myself as anti-American at all, I like many facets of US culture. I would say I was anti-imperialist, anti-war mongering, anti-hypocrisy, and anti-capitalist. It just happens that at this particular time the US set the worst example of these things. I don't why I have to continually labour this point Bucks, when in the next post you'll slap some some simplistic "right-wing" label on me again.

I don't think anyone ignored the Communists in Spain and in my opinion it was Stalin's stooges who crushed the Spanish "revolution" before Franco finished them off. However, who else did the democratically elected govt of the republic have to turn to? The US/UK policy of non-intervention was well in place before Stalin played his part.

Regarding the state of today's hospitals, I don't see how you can blame Socialists because this country hasn't seen anything resembling a Socialist in power since the 60's.

[Mr Mosquito]

Correction socialista are not naive youngsters, just gullible, misguided, and narrow minded, actually. As in about the International brigade, you so lovingly mention. they went to Spain, badly trained, even worse led, to fight the evil fascists, ignoring the communists who were doing exactly what Hitler and Mussolinis Fascists were doing, trying out their weapons of war.

Everyone seems to be playing Devil's advocate in this debate. Personally, I get worried by the prospect of the USA sponsored Right-Wing police states that were so popular in South America in the 1950's, 60's and 70's. The amount of trades unionists, socialists and opponents that 'went missing' in Argentina, Chile and Paraguay during this period is truely frightening because it's hardly mentioned. We all know about the brutality of China and the USSR towards opponents but the South American states that were often run by ex German NAZIs is hardly mentioned. Seems to me that we have to tip toe between the Left and Right extremes but our own Royalist regime is becoming like George Orwell's '1984' with so many surveillance cameras.

[jgsmuzzy]

Cuba is a Socialist regime and for 50 years they've had one of the best military, social health care, and education systems in the world.

Have you been to Cuba or are you just reciting from things you read? I have been, and once out of the state controlled everything that is the major cities, things are no better than in most of Africa, let alone South America.

Amazing poverty, potatoes that cost half a week wages for 2, healthcare was none existant. Where was the "Great Socialist" ideal there? It was in Havana, paying for the cigars and Brandy of the elite.

George Orwell's 1984 was mentioned for our state, however, Animal Farm is more fitting for Cuba. "All Animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

The Cuban regime is definately a Napoleon rather than a Snowball character.

[Mr Mosquito]

Have you been to Cuba or are you just reciting from things you read? I have been, and once out of the state controlled everything that is the major cities, things are no better than in most of Africa, let alone South America.

Amazing poverty, potatoes that cost half a week wages for 2, healthcare was none existant. Where was the "Great Socialist" ideal there? It was in Havana, paying for the cigars and Brandy of the elite.

George Orwell's 1984 was mentioned for our state, however, Animal Farm is more fitting for Cuba. "All Animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

The Cuban regime is definately a Napoleon rather than a Snowball character.

As a matter of fact I'm off to Cuba for the warm seas and tropical sunshine this coming July.

I forgot to mention Cuba's fantastic Olympic record in boxing, judo and wrestling - none can argue with that fantastic achievement under Fidel Castro's regime.

[bucksred]

I suppose a Socialist would say much the same about a Conservative, you know "naive, narrow-minded etc". After all life is simply about opinions; there are no right or wrong ones. Hmm...you know I wouldn't describe myself as anti-American at all, I like many facets of US culture. I would say I was anti-imperialist, anti-war mongering, anti-hypocrisy, and anti-capitalist. It just happens that at this particular time the US set the worst example of these things. I don't why I have to continually labour this point Bucks, when in the next post you'll slap some some simplistic "right-wing" label on me again.

I don't think anyone ignored the Communists in Spain and in my opinion it was Stalin's stooges who crushed the Spanish "revolution" before Franco finished them off. However, who else did the democratically elected govt of the republic have to turn to? The US/UK policy of non-intervention was well in place before Stalin played his part.

Regarding the state of today's hospitals, I don't see how you can blame Socialists because this country hasn't seen anything resembling a Socialist in power since the 60's.

Two points. I wonder why the UK/US wouldn't support a government involving hard core leftists/anarchists/communists. any more than they supported the Fascists.

Secondly. just how as an anti capitalist do you propose to change things. Only through Capitalism has any of the worlds peoples gained any substantial improvement in their living standards, & education. It sure aint perfect, but it is how peoples lot improves. Ask any Zimbabwean, just prior to Mugabes illegal land grabs, they had adopted the ways of capitalism so well, their growth was faster than most developed nations, and almost as fast as Rhodesia grew under world sanctions. I work with a number of Africans, from various countries in Africa, and they are adamant that capitalism is the way forward for that continent, not grudging aid, fancy declarations. it will stimulate, growth, political development, infrastructure, and health. they have no time for fancy socialism, trendy fair trade etc etc. Like most of Africas diverse peoples of all colours they just get on and build things up. Their hard working ability humbles me, mand makes me proud to African. and you will no doubt be most unhappy to know, they don't hate us White Africans either, thats left to the politicians so lionised in the West.

[Mr Mosquito]

[bucksred]

[fka dagest]

That makes every American is a Nazi does it? I don't think so. Their system is more democratic, and founded on the very things you keep banging on about, keeping the old fuedal English ways out. I would have thought you would have admired their system. Hey ho.

Anways whats this obsession with inbreds, anyways Gobster? Muff fans are, but they aint toffs and snobs, not from that dump.

Its called realpolitik. Every world power ever has done, still does, always will. You look after your interests, same as the other guys does. get over it. Mugabe is a despot of a Communist pedigree, whats the difference in him or Stroessner? Both exceedingly evil men, with long lists of crimes against the people pedigree. What about Kim Il Sung, kept in power purely by Soviet, later Russian, and Red Chinese power. and your old mucker Fidel? Rather have their bads guys in charge than Aminjehad, Chavez, and the like, thank you.

The past is exactly that. move on Gobbers. I realize its hard to replace the class war enemies, but really times have moved on.

Chavez? Hasn't dropped bombs on anyone lately has he? Invaded any other countries? Oh...wait he was democratically elected (more then once) and focused on delivering health and education to the poor. Real Criminal. Oh wait, the US doesn't like him. Perhaps he doesn't shoot enough trade unionists like their pal Uribe in Colombia.

[bucksred]

Chavez? Hasn't dropped bombs on anyone lately has he? Invaded any other countries? Oh...wait he was democratically elected (more then once) and focused on delivering health and education to the poor. Real Criminal. Oh wait, the US doesn't like him. Perhaps he doesn't shoot enough trade unionists like their pal Uribe in Colombia.

Your pathetic, you really are, Adolf Hitler and Mussolini were democratically elected as well. Mugabe was democratically elected. Kim il sung was democratically elected, Peron was. Aminjehad too. and beleive it or not the re-election of your pet hate Mr George W Bush was too. course you could always apply to be an election monitor.

elections do not make a politician like Chavez "respectable. Seizing property, and wealth is not the action of a democrat. That is the act of someone who is deeply resentful of people who have made money. shooting trade Unionists, ahhhhh BLESS. Course you could of course ignore the fact substantial numbers of trade union activists are far from innocent in the political extremist stakes. your victims of state violence, may just maybe political extremists who deserved shooting. South America is a notoriously dishonest place in political terms, in all forms democrat, or dictator, right or left.

Pity the likes of you bang on about Bush, rather than REAL dictators like Mugabe, who has banned Western Observwers from the US, Europe bar russia, Australia, New Zealand, Japan & south Korea, but accepted observers from Libya, Sudan, Venezuela, Iran, China, & N Korea. Perhaps in your world they are paragons of democracy, but in mine they are not.

If you spent as much time hounding the likes of Mugabe as you do the US, I might just take you and your kind somewhere near remotely seriously. Mugabe has forced 4 million of his people to flee, killed at least half a million others, inflicted a world record 100,000 percent inflation, inflicted 80% unemployment, and forcibly starved his, and five neighbouring states, due to his utter greed and indifference to his peoples plight. his racist attacks on whites aint really hurt any of us, we can/could, all get the hell out. Something he knows damn well his own tribe, and the minority Ndebele cannot do.

and the massacre in Sudan by the Janjuweed, the rape of Tibet to name but two other crimes against humanity. not to mention the murderous campaign against Chechnya

[fka dagest]

Aww, cheap insults - how sweet. It's "you're pathetic". Your naivety is so twee Bucks. Didn't you realise that all property relations are based on theft? Nobody really owns anything.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Chavez redistributing redundant pieces of land. I don't see any of the parasites suddenly ending up on the street do you? Do you get upset when govts privatise publicly owned utilities? No, didn't think so. Besides, you appear to care very little about Russians, trade unionists being shot, but care very much about wealth being redistributed. You have a bizarre conception of morality.

If democracy is so flawed why is the West so keen to export to everyone? What about the democrats Bush and Blair seizing the wealth of Iraq?

The Trade Unionists who deserved shooting? Perhaps you familiarise yourself with the situation of the last 50 years in Colombia. Being radical has got nothing to do with it. Being a Unionist is justification in itself.

I've condemned Mugabe several times in the past, but it doesn't stop it being your standard, over-used retort.

[bucksred]

Aww, cheap insults - how sweet. It's "you're pathetic". Your naivety is so twee Bucks. Didn't you realise that all property relations are based on theft? Nobody really owns anything.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Chavez redistributing redundant pieces of land. I don't see any of the parasites suddenly ending up on the street do you? Do you get upset when govts privatise publicly owned utilities? No, didn't think so. Besides, you appear to care very little about Russians, trade unionists being shot, but care very much about wealth being redistributed. You have a bizarre conception of morality.

If democracy is so flawed why is the West so keen to export to everyone? What about the democrats Bush and Blair seizing the wealth of Iraq?

The Trade Unionists who deserved shooting? Perhaps you familiarise yourself with the situation of the last 50 years in Colombia. Being radical has got nothing to do with it. Being a Unionist is justification in itself.

I've condemned Mugabe several times in the past, but it doesn't stop it being your standard, over-used retort.

Really, I work very damn hard for everything I own. I pay for something/a service. I try and get it as inexpensively as possible. That is trade as it has been done since time immemorial, the methods of transactions change, the system does it. do you botrrow the pc you are currently using, do you borrow someones car to get about?

You probably would have agreed with Mugabe's redistribution of redundant land similar phrase used to yours, which he further stated was stolen by whites. Actually if you read into it, you might find most of the farms siezed were purchased after 1980 (IE post Independance), as the original farmers gapped it once Mugabe came to power. blood curdling threats when you have a family focus ones mind. Mugabe then put the farms the government siezed in the abscence of their owners and sold them to other farmers, including a substantial land tax.

This is not a history lesson, as I doubt you would even be interested in what happened there, but as an example, of one persons lies is another persons truthes. something you may like to note.Just to show one point of view can be quite different than another

How much do you actually beleive about the situation in S America. I don't, as I hear conflicting accounts, of varying degrees of violence/peace/drugs/no drugs etc etc. The only people I have met who like Chavez are people of somewhat coloured points of view on his politics, IE people of his left wing rhetoric. He may be right, hes probably wrong is what he does. however if Mugabe thinks hes a great man, then I think, no offence, he would be diametrically opposite. Likewise anyone who deals with Aminjehad

As for democracy, what works here, don't work in Europe, or the US, and vice versa. different places require different approaches, possibly quite different to our Western Ideals. However in the case of Iraq, we don't have a substantial disagreement. Bush went to war there to finish of what his Dad had the sense not to. I said that since Day 1. despite having members of my close family serve there then, and since. That war was and is wrong, because they have let the very forces they didn't want in there, take the place over for their orgy of destruction.

As for trade unions, they were a force for good, however they have long since been seen as a focus for political activists of either hue, as a vehicle for their political aims, not as an organization to protect the workers. They use the union as a basis for political action. For examples just look at recent British history. I was laid off off a week or so due to strike action in companies not connected with my business, for which I didnt get paid.. I have also done the Fireman's strike, despite the best efforts of the militant members of the FBU trying to sabotage our radio, and Green Goddess fire appliance- they failed due to the fact the thick t wats didn't realise we might actually guard the vehicle, cos it was expected this would happen. This from an organization which says it cares about peoples lives. Yeah Right.

and your right I don't care about Russia, they caused more than their fair share of trouble, in Africa, Afghanistan etc etc. would you have thought any different between 1933 and 1945, about Germans? Britain is where I live, and Africa is where I am from, they count for me, sod all else.

Indeed I am surprised I haven't been accused of a lack of morality before. You surprised me there I have to admit

[Mr Mosquito]

That makes every American is a Nazi does it? I don't think so. Their system is more democratic, and founded on the very things you keep banging on about, keeping the old fuedal English ways out. I would have thought you would have admired their system. Hey ho.

Anways whats this obsession with inbreds, anyways Gobster? Muff fans are, but they aint toffs and snobs, not from that dump.

bucksred, here's something that may give you a dose of moral indignation. The USA sold machine tools and the legendary Christie suspension for the T34 tanks to the USSR even before WWII started. The USA therefore supported Stalin's Red Army with the materials and technology to help the USSR beat Germany and dominate Eastern Europe for 50 odd years post WWII. Jewish merchants in New York were even selling supplies for the German U boat crews in WWII - bet you didn't know that.

My obsession with inbreds stems from our very own Adam's family 'inbred song' originally sung for the benefit of the likes of Swindon and Plymouth and now sung with gusto for every group of opposition supporters.

Anyway, the following enlightened extract is from an American Pentecostal Ministry journal and represents most what I like about America.........

"Benjamin Hart contends that America owes its political and religious freedoms, not primarily to the Romans and Greeks, but to Oliver Cromwell and the Puritans whom our founding fathers fervently admired. If this is true, America owes a great debt to brave Oliver and the Puritan saints."

Source: http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

[Philip Belgrave]

bucksred, here's something that may give you a dose of moral indignation. The USA sold machine tools and the legendary Christie suspension for the T34 tanks to the USSR even before WWII started. The USA therefore supported Stalin's Red Army with the materials and technology to help the USSR beat Germany and dominate Eastern Europe for 50 odd years post WWII. Jewish merchants in New York were even selling supplies for the German U boat crews in WWII - bet you didn't know that.

My obsession with inbreds stems from our very own Adam's family 'inbred song' originally sung for the benefit of the likes of Swindon and Plymouth and now sung with gusto for every group of opposition supporters.

Anyway, the following enlightened extract is from an American Pentecostal Ministry journal and represents most what I like about America.........

"Benjamin Hart contends that America owes its political and religious freedoms, not primarily to the Romans and Greeks, but to Oliver Cromwell and the Puritans whom our founding fathers fervently admired. If this is true, America owes a great debt to brave Oliver and the Puritan saints."

Source: http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

Actually they owe their political thinking largely to a 17th.century philosopher, born well within the Bristol City hinterland.