Fao Red Goblin

[bucksred]

The concept of the oath of allegiance is absolutely repellent. It's symptomatic of a police state that many in govt appear to want to set up.

I agree with you there Dagest. You should not need to swear an oath, unless you serve the public, ie the forces, Police, et al, and certainly not an oath to one person. Gobbers analogy of the Wehrmacht is spot on. Its no coincidence the Yanks swear aan oath of allegiance to the USA, not the elected leaders.

[Mr Mosquito]

I agree with you there Dagest. You should not need to swear an oath, unless you serve the public, ie the forces, Police, et al, and certainly not an oath to one person. Gobbers analogy of the Wehrmacht is spot on. Its no coincidence the Yanks swear aan oath of allegiance to the USA, not the elected leaders.

"be true & faithful to the Commonwealth of England, without a King or House of Lords"

.....don't you just know that this now ancient solemn English Republican oath makes sense?

[Philip Belgrave]

I don't quite see what that has to do with my posting. I didn't suggest who can or can't live in England which is a wholly different argument to what is being covered in this thread.

I suppose my argument can be summed up quite simply. England is the basic nation-state unit that I belong to. It is currently part of the following supra-national groupings:

Britain

The UK

The EU

The Commonwealth

The UN

There have, in the past, been good benefits to England from signing up to these associations. I now regard membership of these groupings as a liability and would leave them all tomorrow.

Sorry, Eddie, I can appreciate your deeply felt Little Englander sentiment, but the weight of history is against you ,like it or not. I see that the Commonwealth is last but one in your priorities, so therefore we Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders can just bugger off, eh ? I presume the "good benefits to England " were supplied in 1914 and 1939 ? - But then that's just history. You did'nt really mean that now, did you ?

[Eddie Hitler]

Sorry, Eddie, I can appreciate your deeply felt Little Englander sentiment, but the weight of history is against you ,like it or not. I see that the Commonwealth is last but one in your priorities, so therefore we Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders can just bugger off, eh ? I presume the "good benefits to England " were supplied in 1914 and 1939 ? - But then that's just history. You did'nt really mean that now, did you ?

The listing was by ascending size or organisation and therefore IMO decreasing relevance so the Commonwealth comes in just before the UN.

I don't see why you're taking offence at that. If it was a club and you (Australia) were thrown out then you would have a right to be upset, but why be upset because another member (England) wants to leave the club?

Taking the club analogy further if you were in a club that had a subsidised bar, cheap food, and a genuine sense of purpose you'd want to stay. If it gradually changed so you ended up subsidising everybody's membership fees and all the plus points had gone then why would you renew your membership? It just makes sense to me.

Your specific example of alliance during the last two world wars would have happened without there being a Commonwealth. There is sufficient shared histroy, ancestry, and culture between England and Australia for there to be mutual support in conflict anyway. If Indonesia decided it wanted some of your wide open spaces then England would come to your aid, England leaving the Commonwealth wouldn't change that.

[Mr Mosquito]

Sorry, Eddie, I can appreciate your deeply felt Little Englander sentiment, but the weight of history is against you ,like it or not. I see that the Commonwealth is last but one in your priorities, so therefore we Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders can just bugger off, eh ? I presume the "good benefits to England " were supplied in 1914 and 1939 ? - But then that's just history. You did'nt really mean that now, did you ?

PHILIP BELGRAVE, the Commonwealth is one of my first priorities. When I was in Nassau, Bahamas, I paid my respects and took a piccie of the war memorial there. Just to prove it my City cap is at the bottom, I'm very grateful to the Commonwealth for helping our Grandparents resist the NAZI tyranny - when all seemed lost - even if others have forgotten. Look at the inscription !!!!!!!........

[Philip Belgrave]

The listing was by ascending size or organisation and therefore IMO decreasing relevance so the Commonwealth comes in just before the UN.

I don't see why you're taking offence at that. If it was a club and you (Australia) were thrown out then you would have a right to be upset, but why be upset because another member (England) wants to leave the club?

Taking the club analogy further if you were in a club that had a subsidised bar, cheap food, and a genuine sense of purpose you'd want to stay. If it gradually changed so you ended up subsidising everybody's membership fees and all the plus points had gone then why would you renew your membership? It just makes sense to me.

Your specific example of alliance during the last two world wars would have happened without there being a Commonwealth. There is sufficient shared histroy, ancestry, and culture between England and Australia for there to be mutual support in conflict anyway. If Indonesia decided it wanted some of your wide open spaces then England would come to your aid, England leaving the Commonwealth wouldn't change that.

Please don't misunderstand ,no offense was taken, and none given, I trust.

The point I was trying to make was that you can't just pull the plug on past relationships merely because, after a hard-headed assessment of where you believe you stand here and now ,then they appear to have no residual value. It is rather more personal situation than deciding to leave a club because the pies were cold and the beer was warm.

The Commonwealth , no matter how moribund it might appear, is still both a tangible and symbolic link. While the Republican debate continues here the staunchest advocates for a change to an Australian President as Head of State are very quick to insist that such a change would NOT mean that Australia would have to leave the Commonwealth. But if England left because it saw no further value in the relationship then that would be that. It would certainly be taken as a snub in many quarters.The feeling would be then, let's shut up shop completely.

Obviously.there are other factors at work. As you point-out,certainly there are thousands, perhaps millions ,of family and personal relationships which bind the U.K-sorry, England- and Australia. together. I myself, still preserve dual citizenship.

My reply was,perhaps, coloured by talking yesterday to an elderly couple who had just returned "home" to England .(They called it "home" even though they were 3rd.generation Australian). What galled them was they were compelled to wait in the long "Foreign" queue at Heathrow while they watched European citizens walking straight passed them and through the landing formalities with ease:- just as if they owned the place .(Perhaps they did!). I am sure that many of those EU citizens hailed from nations who were England's mortal enemies within living memory- while Commonwealth Nations rallied round to assist .

A small thing perhaps, but still...

[Philip Belgrave]

PHILIP BELGRAVE, the Commonwealth is one of my first priorities. When I was in Nassau, Bahamas, I paid my respects and took a piccie of the war memorial there. Just to prove it my City cap is at the bottom, I'm very grateful to the Commonwealth for helping our Grandparents resist the NAZI tyranny - when all seemed lost - even if others have forgotten. Look at the inscription !!!!!!!........

Many thanks Red Goblin.

Please see my reply to Eddie. I really did'nt mean to give offense

[rayer]

From this time forward, under God,

I pledge my loyalty to Guinness and the hot kebab,

And allegiance to munchies, football and TV.

[Mr Mosquito]

What galled them was they were compelled to wait in the long "Foreign" queue at Heathrow while they watched European citizens walking straight passed them and through the landing formalities with ease:- just as if they owned the place .(Perhaps they did!). I am sure that many of those EU citizens hailed from nations who were England's mortal enemies within living memory- while Commonwealth Nations rallied round to assist .

I'm sorry to read about the wait in the 'foreign' queue - another reason for England to stick 2 fingers up at the European Union (EU). The EU sucks and so does Gordon Brownoser for not allowing us a referendum on EU membership. The Lib-Lab-Con one party state of this country can stick their EU membership up their arses. SIDEWAYS !!!!!!!!!!!

The EU sucks.