the frampton balti Posted December 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Just to point out that you've missed out the option of on the badge AND on the shirt, which I would prefer. I think we can safely assume that robin badge people are happy to have it on the shirt in one form or another whereas robin shirt people want to keep the coat of arms and have the robin represented on the shirt perhaps in a subtle fashion like what is on bcfc tickets? early exit polls suggest the robin is desired in one form or another! exiting isnt it!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex#40 Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 we've used the creast for most of our history I'd like to keep thatThis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevecity86 Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 I would love to see the robin back, but appreciate lots people like the crest. It seems a bit of a divisive issue, like the calls for another purple and lime away kit. As I mentioned on a thread yesterday, a way to please both sides would be to have a third shirt with the robin which is purple and lime, that would look mint! Plus all those who dont like the robin/purple and lime would not have to see the team play in it too often, and all the fans who want the robin back will be able to get one! Problem solved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliftonville Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 What economic benefit is there for BCFC to be called the Robins but display the Unicorn on shirts? A strong identity it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the frampton balti Posted December 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 I would love to see the robin back, but appreciate lots people like the crest. It seems a bit of a divisive issue, like the calls for another purple and lime away kit. As I mentioned on a thread yesterday, a way to please both sides would be to have a third shirt with the robin which is purple and lime, that would look mint! Plus all those who dont like the robin/purple and lime would not have to see the team play in it too often, and all the fans who want the robin back will be able to get one! Problem solved! What sort of compromise is that....purple and lime is slime! robins are sick! you crazy coot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCAGFC Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 What economic benefit is there for BCFC to be called the Robins but display the Unicorn on shirts? A strong identity it is not. Weren't the EE campaigners given an opportunity to design & produce a range of clothing with the Robin on?. BCAGFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everreddy Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Rubbish, defeatist talk . Its there for the taking ! . ...better a magpie: robbin' from others! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the frampton balti Posted December 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 What economic benefit is there for BCFC to be called the Robins but display the Unicorn on shirts? A strong identity it is not. were not known as the unicorns though are we? We are known as the robins by most of the media .....a strong identity it is. We have no other bar the wurzels lets be honest. Lets just embrace what we are! We are robins. what are you..............City?....oh thats original. Well im a ******N Unicorn just get used to it. Up the unicorns! Up the Unicorns.Up the Unicorns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 were not known as the unicorns though are we? We are known as the robins by most of the media .....a strong identity it is. We have no other bar the wurzels lets be honest. Lets just embrace what we are! We are robins. what are you..............City?....oh thats original. Well im a ******N Unicorn just get used to it. Up the unicorns! Up the Unicorns.Up the Unicorns How far? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the frampton balti Posted December 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 much further than you think. Personally im getting a bit sick and tired of this throw away society. Weve got something good .Its part of our tradition .lets not discard it like an unwanted toy to the graveyard of football memorabilia. COME ON YOU UNICORNS!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliftonville Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Weren't the EE campaigners given an opportunity to design & produce a range of clothing with the Robin on?. BCAGFC Fans have designed and produced their own ranges of items already. So there could be a benefit in BCFC looking at using a clear and obvious symbol of the clubs history, rather than an emotive re-brand, while not linking it to one stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider head Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 The supporters club and trust along with Bristol city fc are in process of compiling a fans survey on various topics and i feel this Robin badge v Crest badge should be put on the survey list. How ever as posted before. The Robin is undoubtedly a icon of Britain featuring on Christmas cards but from 1976 for nearly two decades was along with the Suspension bridge the emblem of Bristol City fc. This period was without doubt the most successful but also turbulent in the clubs history. For a time during this period it seemed City had established themselves in the first division before becoming the first ever team to suffer three successive relegations and occupying bottom spot of the fourth division by early 82. In the mid nineties the decision was taken to change the clubs emblem back to a crest. Now some ten years and more on this move has still yet to really catch the imagination of fans or even become an instantly identifiable image associated with Bristol City fc. Ask most fans of other fans what is the nickname of Bristol City fc? Instantly it's the Robins. Ask what features on the club badge and the answer is the Robin and Suspension bridge not the crest of Bristol! Even the media constantly use the Robin and Suspension bridge seemingly in the mistaken belief it really is Citys current badge. There's something unlovable about the Crest. Its not really ours, Bristol City have no greater claim on it than anybody else and parts of the design have indeed been used by the noxious Gas in the past, the egg chasing lot up Gloucester road, the Bristol Car company and part currently looks suspiciously like the anti sport loving tofu eating councils image. The Gas have as much claim to this badge as we do and we do not need a symbol that represents all of Bristol including Easton, East Vile, Fishponds and Whorefield. In the Robin and Suspension bridge we have the perfect emblem of our club. Here with its Suspension bridge is a celebration of a marvel of architecture which nobody else can lay claim to. Couple this with the Robin a Spirited fierce fighter, willing to battle with rival birds to the death to defend its territory and we have something to be proud of. This robin works, its simple, instantly recognisable with a perfect balance of red , white and black catching the onlookers attention and remaining in the memory. The Crest simply does not work in the same manner, its fussy, unoriginal, forever tainted with its association with others and the terrible and the repellent stigma pictured . All supporters groups (including the supporters trust & club) bare a robin in some form, the club has the nick name the robins and has a mascott of a robin but use the bristol crest that has no personal identity, we feel it's time for the robins return. Bring back the Robin! The red red robin, finally, has died - or so it would seem. On 22nd August 1994 Bristol city football club announced that the Robin would be removed from all club stationary and memorabilia and replaced with the so called more popular city of Bristol emblem. Such a replacement would end an on off association of over 70 years between the red-breasted one and the red-shirted ones but, evidently, there are those who disagree with the decision to this day. Back in 1994 on the way to the Northampton game the City Away Travel Service launched a petition in an attempt to keep the well-known emblem and it appeared that those making the journey were quite prepared to sign it. Back then we signed it but, like many others, have reservations about the fate of the bird and it's continued association with City. Ther club's claim in 1994 was that the Robin/Suspension Bridge/Football emblem looks like an amateur club's attempt at a logo from the mid-70's. Such a design is no way to present the clubs official documents - the city of Bristol emblem was said to be much more appropriate; it is geographically specific and so say more professional than the old combination od bird, bridge and ball. It is also fair to state that the Robin is not unique to Bristol. Talk of the 'Robins' can relate equally to Swindon, Wrexham, Cheltenham or even Charlton which was seen by the club as a reason further to support it's continuation: some of the most popular club nicknames are those which relate to the historical occupations of the fans - Luton will always be the 'Hatters,' Rotherham the 'merry Millers,' and Crewe Alexandra the Railwaymen.' Whilst We accept that City could never be the ''Faggers,' 'Smokers' or 'Tobacconists,' from obvious links with the now destroyed factory, there is also the docking history of the area to consider. It seems some people think that the 'Robins' simply comes about as a result of the red shirts which we wear'', and hardly the most original of sources some would think and really just a more innovative form of the 'Reds' or Blues' which so many clubs still use, however 'not only does the robin come from Bristol city wearing red, it also ties in to our westcounty & cider history as for generations people have carred out the tradintion of Wassail! The villagers form a circle around the largest apple tree, hang pieces of toast soaked in cider in the branches for the robins, who represent the 'good spirits' of the tree. A shotgun is fired overhead to scare away evil spirits and the group sings, cider and robins with Bristol city go hand in hand. In despite of this argument the Robin obviously has a distguished history and many seem to dislike the fact from 1997 to this day will have lost or lose it in this sense, many fans have been trying to get the robin back since 1994 up to 2011 and other forms of the Robin including the Eastend fans Robin ''fondly known as ernie'' which unofficially are keeping the Robin history alive. Oddly enough since the Robin was no longer officially the clubs' emblem it appears to have preserved it as a nickname and has a mascot ''Robin'' parading around the pitch on match days which ''Scrumpy'' has its merchandise sold in the club shop!. If there is no link between City and The Robin other than the colour red which the two share, it would ludicrous to maintain the link? would it not??? - it is the use of the Robin in the emblem, and this only, that sets us apart from Swindon or Wrexham. As fans we need identity and this is one of the strongest arguments for a return of the Robin as from 1994 our nickname and the Bristol emblem has been irrelevant to Brisol City Football Club, lets bare in mind the Bristol City supporters trust bare a Robin as it's own emblem/logo. The historical connotations are also important. It is well known that the Robin has been accociated with Bristol City for well over 70 years and was well supported by a number of former players and club associates. Indeed, Donnie Gilles said that he was disgusted by the decision to part with the Robin emblem. The say progress must continually be made and occasionally it goes against popular opinion - removing the Robin was just as much a commercial decision as changing the colour of the away kit is; the club is not trying to be vindictive towards fans by replacing the Robin, they were simply making a decision which they believed will be beneficial to Bristol City in the long term (which from 1994 to 2011 is questionable considering the amount of fans wanting the Robins return) We do not want to see the history of our club eroded. There are said to be three other points that so say favour the club's decision in 1994; When the Robin was replaced on the strip by the Bristol emblem an Evening post poll showed the majority of fans in favour of change; (although evening post polls like other polls can be used as great fun for rival fans). Secondly, when was the last time that the accompanying song was sung by all corners of of the ground as Drink Up Thy Cider now is??? (mind you these days it is a struggle to get all corners of of the ground singing in union if at all) we do though seem happier singing about our drinking habbits than our flying/bobbing habbits and, what's more, without the Robin the Gas will be entirely without any vaguely original songs; there will be no more shooting of the illegitimate bird; thirdly, the Robin, to many suggests weakness (those that are at least no nothing about birds) - it's so say a really little bird that ends up getting eaten by bigger birds or cats; a club like Crystal Palace have adopted a so called dominent, powerful bird in the eagle as their club mascot/emblem type of thing. So say the Robin is the root of endless jibes and jokes, so should it be a problem not to bring the Robin back?... As it is fairly obvious we at robinback.co.uk are in favour of bringing the Robin back, officially, to Bristol City FC. As The Robin will always be associated with Bristol City (we have a robin mascot and nick name) and i think that changing the clubs nick name is highly unlikely - there will always be that association. Therefore we would suggest a return of the Robin or at least some form of comromise, courses of action could be a re-designed, modern, professional Robin logo/emblem that represents Bristol City and the clubs nick name, this would appease the long suffering supporters of the Robin. Ok there are people who have Bristol emblem tattoo's the club could still keep the crest on the shorts for them but when did the club spare a thought for the many fans who have Robin tattoo's??? memorabilia should not be a problem for the club shop to stock both? for choice?? the choice the many Robin fans do not have. The robin was first used in 1949 on the shirts but it was a very different design I feel we should have our oven badge and ID to Bristol city not just Bristol as a whole ie: the gas, glous cricket, the council etc. The rovers using the pirate is a part of Bristols history (read up on it) but in itself represents them alone and a few schools call themselfs Bristol ie: Bristol grammar school, but have their own emblem, badge and rovers dumped the crest years ago for this reason that they are Bristol but not South Bristol. And that is the deep root point here as they have their own badge/emblem identity which represents them in side their club as opposed to a Bristol crest used by every tom, dick and harry, the Badge of Bristol, which is Bristol as a whole, does not represent them by geography as of Ashton or Bedminster which is where Bristol city fc represent, ok you may not feel it is a robin to your taste but we should go the way the gas or pirates have gone and have our own Badge and identity but still be Bristol city. Do the club have a motto? most traditional organisations do. It is interesting the nickname, i like the robins and the robin badge, i like scrumpy our mascot and i didn't get the point when city had a cat? however what would fans consider being called? just city? i don't think this is a modern americanisation of clubs as nicknames have been around for a very, very long time in football but i read a few posts saying i don't like the robins without very little alternative? the robin was a nickname given to us years back by the press and locals who for the basic reason we play in red '''robin red breast'''.... Ah! We were called the Bristol babe i hear some say!! the Bristol babe thing, is that Bedminster fc or Bristol south end? that was about on the clubs merger moving in to the football league as we were new, reading some city history books it was quoted the club and players didn't like it. Have a read up, the robin has been around in some form and used for a long time (even if no badge appeared on the shirts) looking at a picture in 1957- 58 a chap looking like dads army with a robin on the end of a stick pointing it at the rovers mascot ''a pirate''. We are the robins everyone else does not matter. Now the supporters trust to other fan groups are proud to use the robin rather than a crest, we have a robin mascot not a unicorn or a ship, the press still refer to us as ''the robins''. The crest (bristol coat of arms) was a re-brand and meger with in itself back in the day with ship and castle (coat of arms) and crest supporters (unicorns) putting the two together so it's not as traditional as people like to make out. The arms are based on the early seals of Bristol, from which the ship and castle theme (signifying a strongly fortified harbour) developed (part of that is slavery). The shield was in use from about the 14th century, and to this was added in 1569 supporters (the two unicorns) and the crest (two arms rising from the clouds holding scales and a serpent). The significance of these various items is recorded in the City Audit Books of this time:- the Unicorns will only do homage to men of virtue; the arms in the crest signify that good government depends on wisdom (the serpent) and justice (the scales) and that these are divine gifts from above.http://www.ngw.nl/in...r/b/bristol.htmhttp://brisray.com/bristol/bsal1.htm In the 1949-50 season the first robin badge was on the shirts of Bristol city, so the year 1949 the supporters club was formed the supporters club would have been around a robin badge. The picture shows this actual badge design of that time Bristol city's Alec Eisentrager in 1949 wearing the first ever version of the robin badge on theshirts. The Robin, mascott and crowd announcer is nothing new and nothing to do with America, Bristol city vs Bristol rovers 1957/58 FA cup tie, in this picture the city mascot was known as ''Ashton Alf'' Picture below is Mr Jenkins contemporary audience, note the very early version of a megaphone and the crowd holding up a banner ''up the robins'' this being 1935 the fans showing interest in the robin https://twitter.com/Nibor_bcfc http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/groups/14488683348/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East end Forever Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 How about incorporating the traditional badge with our favorite Robin like this? erniebadge.gif this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poland_red Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 The supporters club and trust along with Bristol city fc are in process of compiling a fans survey on various topics and i feel this Robin badge v Crest badge should be put on the survey list. How ever as posted before. The Robin is undoubtedly a icon of Britain featuring on Christmas cards but from 1976 for nearly two decades was along with the Suspension bridge the emblem of Bristol City fc. This period was without doubt the most successful but also turbulent in the clubs history. For a time during this period it seemed City had established themselves in the first division before becoming the first ever team to suffer three successive relegations and occupying bottom spot of the fourth division by early 82. In the mid nineties the decision was taken to change the clubs emblem back to a crest. Now some ten years and more on this move has still yet to really catch the imagination of fans or even become an instantly identifiable image associated with Bristol City fc. Ask most fans of other fans what is the nickname of Bristol City fc? Instantly it's the Robins. Ask what features on the club badge and the answer is the Robin and Suspension bridge not the crest of Bristol! Even the media constantly use the Robin and Suspension bridge seemingly in the mistaken belief it really is Citys current badge. There's something unlovable about the Crest. Its not really ours, Bristol City have no greater claim on it than anybody else and parts of the design have indeed been used by the noxious Gas in the past, the egg chasing lot up Gloucester road, the Bristol Car company and part currently looks suspiciously like the anti sport loving tofu eating councils image. The Gas have as much claim to this badge as we do and we do not need a symbol that represents all of Bristol including Easton, East Vile, Fishponds and Whorefield. In the Robin and Suspension bridge we have the perfect emblem of our club. Here with its Suspension bridge is a celebration of a marvel of architecture which nobody else can lay claim to. Couple this with the Robin a Spirited fierce fighter, willing to battle with rival birds to the death to defend its territory and we have something to be proud of. This robin works, its simple, instantly recognisable with a perfect balance of red , white and black catching the onlookers attention and remaining in the memory. The Crest simply does not work in the same manner, its fussy, unoriginal, forever tainted with its association with others and the terrible and the repellent stigma pictured . All supporters groups (including the supporters trust & club) bare a robin in some form, the club has the nick name the robins and has a mascott of a robin but use the bristol crest that has no personal identity, we feel it's time for the robins return. Bring back the Robin! The red red robin, finally, has died - or so it would seem. On 22nd August 1994 Bristol city football club announced that the Robin would be removed from all club stationary and memorabilia and replaced with the so called more popular city of Bristol emblem. Such a replacement would end an on off association of over 70 years between the red-breasted one and the red-shirted ones but, evidently, there are those who disagree with the decision to this day. Back in 1994 on the way to the Northampton game the City Away Travel Service launched a petition in an attempt to keep the well-known emblem and it appeared that those making the journey were quite prepared to sign it. Back then we signed it but, like many others, have reservations about the fate of the bird and it's continued association with City. Ther club's claim in 1994 was that the Robin/Suspension Bridge/Football emblem looks like an amateur club's attempt at a logo from the mid-70's. Such a design is no way to present the clubs official documents - the city of Bristol emblem was said to be much more appropriate; it is geographically specific and so say more professional than the old combination od bird, bridge and ball. It is also fair to state that the Robin is not unique to Bristol. Talk of the 'Robins' can relate equally to Swindon, Wrexham, Cheltenham or even Charlton which was seen by the club as a reason further to support it's continuation: some of the most popular club nicknames are those which relate to the historical occupations of the fans - Luton will always be the 'Hatters,' Rotherham the 'merry Millers,' and Crewe Alexandra the Railwaymen.' Whilst We accept that City could never be the ''Faggers,' 'Smokers' or 'Tobacconists,' from obvious links with the now destroyed factory, there is also the docking history of the area to consider. It seems some people think that the 'Robins' simply comes about as a result of the red shirts which we wear'', and hardly the most original of sources some would think and really just a more innovative form of the 'Reds' or Blues' which so many clubs still use, however 'not only does the robin come from Bristol city wearing red, it also ties in to our westcounty & cider history as for generations people have carred out the tradintion of Wassail! The villagers form a circle around the largest apple tree, hang pieces of toast soaked in cider in the branches for the robins, who represent the 'good spirits' of the tree. A shotgun is fired overhead to scare away evil spirits and the group sings, cider and robins with Bristol city go hand in hand. In despite of this argument the Robin obviously has a distguished history and many seem to dislike the fact from 1997 to this day will have lost or lose it in this sense, many fans have been trying to get the robin back since 1994 up to 2011 and other forms of the Robin including the Eastend fans Robin ''fondly known as ernie'' which unofficially are keeping the Robin history alive. Oddly enough since the Robin was no longer officially the clubs' emblem it appears to have preserved it as a nickname and has a mascot ''Robin'' parading around the pitch on match days which ''Scrumpy'' has its merchandise sold in the club shop!. If there is no link between City and The Robin other than the colour red which the two share, it would ludicrous to maintain the link? would it not??? - it is the use of the Robin in the emblem, and this only, that sets us apart from Swindon or Wrexham. As fans we need identity and this is one of the strongest arguments for a return of the Robin as from 1994 our nickname and the Bristol emblem has been irrelevant to Brisol City Football Club, lets bare in mind the Bristol City supporters trust bare a Robin as it's own emblem/logo. The historical connotations are also important. It is well known that the Robin has been accociated with Bristol City for well over 70 years and was well supported by a number of former players and club associates. Indeed, Donnie Gilles said that he was disgusted by the decision to part with the Robin emblem. The say progress must continually be made and occasionally it goes against popular opinion - removing the Robin was just as much a commercial decision as changing the colour of the away kit is; the club is not trying to be vindictive towards fans by replacing the Robin, they were simply making a decision which they believed will be beneficial to Bristol City in the long term (which from 1994 to 2011 is questionable considering the amount of fans wanting the Robins return) We do not want to see the history of our club eroded. There are said to be three other points that so say favour the club's decision in 1994; When the Robin was replaced on the strip by the Bristol emblem an Evening post poll showed the majority of fans in favour of change; (although evening post polls like other polls can be used as great fun for rival fans). Secondly, when was the last time that the accompanying song was sung by all corners of of the ground as Drink Up Thy Cider now is??? (mind you these days it is a struggle to get all corners of of the ground singing in union if at all) we do though seem happier singing about our drinking habbits than our flying/bobbing habbits and, what's more, without the Robin the Gas will be entirely without any vaguely original songs; there will be no more shooting of the illegitimate bird; thirdly, the Robin, to many suggests weakness (those that are at least no nothing about birds) - it's so say a really little bird that ends up getting eaten by bigger birds or cats; a club like Crystal Palace have adopted a so called dominent, powerful bird in the eagle as their club mascot/emblem type of thing. So say the Robin is the root of endless jibes and jokes, so should it be a problem not to bring the Robin back?... As it is fairly obvious we at robinback.co.uk are in favour of bringing the Robin back, officially, to Bristol City FC. As The Robin will always be associated with Bristol City (we have a robin mascot and nick name) and i think that changing the clubs nick name is highly unlikely - there will always be that association. Therefore we would suggest a return of the Robin or at least some form of comromise, courses of action could be a re-designed, modern, professional Robin logo/emblem that represents Bristol City and the clubs nick name, this would appease the long suffering supporters of the Robin. Ok there are people who have Bristol emblem tattoo's the club could still keep the crest on the shorts for them but when did the club spare a thought for the many fans who have Robin tattoo's??? memorabilia should not be a problem for the club shop to stock both? for choice?? the choice the many Robin fans do not have. The robin was first used in 1949 on the shirts but it was a very different design I feel we should have our oven badge and ID to Bristol city not just Bristol as a whole ie: the gas, glous cricket, the council etc. The rovers using the pirate is a part of Bristols history (read up on it) but in itself represents them alone and a few schools call themselfs Bristol ie: Bristol grammar school, but have their own emblem, badge and rovers dumped the crest years ago for this reason that they are Bristol but not South Bristol. And that is the deep root point here as they have their own badge/emblem identity which represents them in side their club as opposed to a Bristol crest used by every tom, dick and harry, the Badge of Bristol, which is Bristol as a whole, does not represent them by geography as of Ashton or Bedminster which is where Bristol city fc represent, ok you may not feel it is a robin to your taste but we should go the way the gas or pirates have gone and have our own Badge and identity but still be Bristol city. Do the club have a motto? most traditional organisations do. It is interesting the nickname, i like the robins and the robin badge, i like scrumpy our mascot and i didn't get the point when city had a cat? however what would fans consider being called? just city? i don't think this is a modern americanisation of clubs as nicknames have been around for a very, very long time in football but i read a few posts saying i don't like the robins without very little alternative? the robin was a nickname given to us years back by the press and locals who for the basic reason we play in red '''robin red breast'''.... Ah! We were called the Bristol babe i hear some say!! the Bristol babe thing, is that Bedminster fc or Bristol south end? that was about on the clubs merger moving in to the football league as we were new, reading some city history books it was quoted the club and players didn't like it. Have a read up, the robin has been around in some form and used for a long time (even if no badge appeared on the shirts) looking at a picture in 1957- 58 a chap looking like dads army with a robin on the end of a stick pointing it at the rovers mascot ''a pirate''. We are the robins everyone else does not matter. Now the supporters trust to other fan groups are proud to use the robin rather than a crest, we have a robin mascot not a unicorn or a ship, the press still refer to us as ''the robins''. The crest (bristol coat of arms) was a re-brand and meger with in itself back in the day with ship and castle (coat of arms) and crest supporters (unicorns) putting the two together so it's not as traditional as people like to make out. The arms are based on the early seals of Bristol, from which the ship and castle theme (signifying a strongly fortified harbour) developed (part of that is slavery). The shield was in use from about the 14th century, and to this was added in 1569 supporters (the two unicorns) and the crest (two arms rising from the clouds holding scales and a serpent). The significance of these various items is recorded in the City Audit Books of this time:- the Unicorns will only do homage to men of virtue; the arms in the crest signify that good government depends on wisdom (the serpent) and justice (the scales) and that these are divine gifts from above.http://www.ngw.nl/in...r/b/bristol.htmhttp://brisray.com/bristol/bsal1.htm In the 1949-50 season the first robin badge was on the shirts of Bristol city, so the year 1949 the supporters club was formed the supporters club would have been around a robin badge. The picture shows this actual badge design of that time Bristol city's Alec Eisentrager in 1949 wearing the first ever version of the robin badge on theshirts. The Robin, mascott and crowd announcer is nothing new and nothing to do with America, Bristol city vs Bristol rovers 1957/58 FA cup tie, in this picture the city mascot was known as ''Ashton Alf'' Picture below is Mr Jenkins contemporary audience, note the very early version of a megaphone and the crowd holding up a banner ''up the robins'' this being 1935 the fans showing interest in the robin https://twitter.com/Nibor_bcfc http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/groups/14488683348/ not seen those pics before, cracking post!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall King Blox Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 If we have the robbin, and i say IF, then it's gotta be Ernie,he is an awsom lookin robbin ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCAGFC Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Fans have designed and produced their own ranges of items already. So there could be a benefit in BCFC looking at using a clear and obvious symbol of the clubs history, rather than an emotive re-brand, while not linking it to one stand. Why can't you accept the badge as the official club emblem & the robin as a secondary emblem?. Why do you want to force something on fans that at least 50% don't want?. BCAGFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertine Dream Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 How about robin on the home shirts crest on the away? Comprimise? Btw cracking post ch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider head Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 To say there is a lifelong association with the crest is not strictly true as the robin has been there along with Bristol city in some shape or form for many, many years, Even if not on the shirts it was used as a merchandise selling point: A robin badge could well be re-designed in some form but a return would be nice The oldest robin pin badge or name for citys robin was ''robbie robin'' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliftonville Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Why can't you accept the badge as the official club emblem & the robin as a secondary emblem?. Why do you want to force something on fans that at least 50% don't want?. BCAGFC I suggested that the club using a clear symbol of it past could be of benefit. That does not mean a re-brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Why can't we have two badges? Some italian teams have them. One on the left breast and one in the middle or on the sleave. It would be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogbad the Bad Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 I've voted for 'on the shirt', but of course this really means on the shirt and the badge. I always thought the emblem of the Robin and the Gate on the front of the Sir Geoffrey Merrick programme featured in Cider Head's post was superb and something very similar to that would be ideal. If City up sticks to AV I would also keep the ground name as Ashton Gate - New Ashton Gate or whatever - no need to shed what I've always thought is one of the best ground names in the League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo7 Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 This is a fascinating debate on a number of levels. Unlike most debates (e.g. the new stadium) it is not a conflict between progress and tradition as both side can rightly claim history, tradition and feeling of belonging on their side, One point that has been made strongly is that the Robin & Bridge is our own whereas the Ship & Castle is 'borrowed' and represents the whole of Bristol rather than the south-west quarter. This is true but seems contrary to our legitimate claim to be the "One Team in Bristol" and our history as Bristol's first league team. Truth is that on one-level we are South Bristol, the right side of the river, the Somerset contingent etc. - bit on another no other football club in Bristol is or ever could be of comparable importance - even in the darker suburbs of the North-East! Personally I favour the Ship & Castle because: our club founders overcame significant resistance to obtain Gloucestershire FA approval for us (alone) to take the name of our fair City) recognising that in adopting this name we would henceforth represent the City for good or ill - it is therefore wholly appropriate that our team should wear the badge of the City with pride; the name "City" like "Borough", "County" or "Town" carries a representative significance which is completely missing from "Wanderers", "Athletic", "United" or "Rovers" and even permits the abbreviation of our name by some to simply "Bristol" because we are more than simply a football club and "Bristol" can only ever really mean us; whilst I have no complaint or resistance to the little red-breasted feathered one, I cannot recall a single instance in forty years where I have heard a supporter in face-to-face discussion refer to our beloved as "the Robins" - in contrast it seems to me that "Magpies", "Baggies", "Wolves", "Canaries" and "Irons" are commonly used by all to describe those teams; and although it can of course be updated - the 70's badge does look a bit well "70's" like that peculiar one-eyed smiley face adopted at the time by Dirty Leeds. It matters not to me who else might or might not borrow or adopt the City's emblem - in choosing (and fighting) to carry the name we earned the inalienable right and proud duty to represent the City and hence we should wear the badge with pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider head Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 This is a fascinating debate on a number of levels. Unlike most debates (e.g. the new stadium) it is not a conflict between progress and tradition as both side can rightly claim history, tradition and feeling of belonging on their side, One point that has been made strongly is that the Robin & Bridge is our own whereas the Ship & Castle is 'borrowed' and represents the whole of Bristol rather than the south-west quarter. This is true but seems contrary to our legitimate claim to be the "One Team in Bristol" and our history as Bristol's first league team. Truth is that on one-level we are South Bristol, the right side of the river, the Somerset contingent etc. - bit on another no other football club in Bristol is or ever could be of comparable importance - even in the darker suburbs of the North-East! Personally I favour the Ship & Castle because: our club founders overcame significant resistance to obtain Gloucestershire FA approval for us (alone) to take the name of our fair City) recognising that in adopting this name we would henceforth represent the City for good or ill - it is therefore wholly appropriate that our team should wear the badge of the City with pride; the name "City" like "Borough", "County" or "Town" carries a representative significance which is completely missing from "Wanderers", "Athletic", "United" or "Rovers" and even permits the abbreviation of our name by some to simply "Bristol" because we are more than simply a football club and "Bristol" can only ever really mean us; whilst I have no complaint or resistance to the little red-breasted feathered one, I cannot recall a single instance in forty years where I have heard a supporter in face-to-face discussion refer to our beloved as "the Robins" - in contrast it seems to me that "Magpies", "Baggies", "Wolves", "Canaries" and "Irons" are commonly used by all to describe those teams; and although it can of course be updated - the 70's badge does look a bit well "70's" like that peculiar one-eyed smiley face adopted at the time by Dirty Leeds. It matters not to me who else might or might not borrow or adopt the City's emblem - in choosing (and fighting) to carry the name we earned the inalienable right and proud duty to represent the City and hence we should wear the badge with pride. Even Gloucester cricket club who play at the County Cricket Ground in Bristol use a Bristol crest and can be said the logo is odd for their personal ID but then again, any of the Bristol city fans who live outside of Bristol where a Bristol badge may have no meaning to them but a personal Club ID would do, that is very much detached from the Bristol crest. I know a fair few people from weston and taunton, radstock & frome areas who could not give a rats about Bristol and the badge but love Bristol city fc, it goes to show how the ernie robin became popular to the point people had tattoo's of this image as it represented a personal ID to them and their football club. A bit long winded but history can be just that: As i said The crest (bristol coat of arms) was a re-brand and meger with in itself back in the day with ship and castle (coat of arms) and crest supporters (unicorns) putting the two together so it's not as traditional as people like to make out. The arms are based on the early seals of Bristol, from which the ship and castle theme (signifying a strongly fortified harbour) developed (part of that is slavery). The shield was in use from about the 14th century, and to this was added in 1569 supporters (the two unicorns) and the crest (two arms rising from the clouds holding scales and a serpent). The significance of these various items is recorded in the City Audit Books of this time:- the Unicorns will only do homage to men of virtue; the arms in the crest signify that good government depends on wisdom (the serpent) and justice (the scales) and that these are divine gifts from above. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_slave_trade Bristol's Seals, Arms and Logos Seals were introduced as a way of authenticating documents. A blob of soft sealing wax was melted and the seal, often in the form of a signet ring, pressed into it. Seals have been in use for a long time and there is a mention of them being misused in the Bible's Old Testament, 1 Kings 21:8 in King James version says... So she [Jezebel] wrote letters in Ahab's name, and sealed them with his seal, and sent the letters unto the elders and to the nobles that were in his city, dwelling with Naboth. The first known seal used by the City of Bristol was issued early in the reign of King Edward I who reigned from 1272 to 1307. This seal has two halves that were aligned using the lugs seen on the above image. It was used not only on official city of Bristol documents but was used by city burgesses whose seals were not sufficiently well-known. A burgess was originally any freeman of a particular borough but was later redefined as any city official either elected or not. One side of the seal shows the castle, which was built between 1130 and 1150, including the great keep on which a watchman stands with a trumpet. The reverse shows a ship approaching the castle watergate along the Avon which teems with fish and eels. Ships at that time were steered using a broad board over the side of the ship and not with a rudder at the stern. A watchman points out the entrance to the watergate. The text on this side of the seal reads "Secreti clavis sum portus. Navita navis Portam custodit. Portum vigil indice prodit." A translation of this is "I am the key of the hidden port. The sailor watches the port side of the ship. The watchman points out the port with his finger", an alternative translation is "I am the key of the secret port. The pilot steers the helm of the ship. The warder points out the port with his fore-finger." This seal is the only one that I have seen where the ship is entering the castle watergate, all seals after this show the ship leaving the watergate. This seal was in use until 1569 when Bristol was granted a crest with supporters - the golden unicorns - for the civic arms. There was another seal apparently also issued in the reign of Edward I and that now shows the ship leaving the castle... City seal from the the reign of Edward I Image from "Bristol Past and Present" by James Fawckner Nicholls and John Taylor, published by J. W. Arrowsmith, 1881 The text reads "Sigillum Maioritatis Ville Bristolie." Another seal was issued during the reign of Edward III in 1359... Second mayoral seal - 1359 Image from "Civic Treasures of Bristol" by Mary E. Williams, published by City of Bristol, 1984 This seal replaced an earlier seal that was produced earlier in Edward III's reign. What happened was that Edward had assumed the title of "King of France" in 1340 and the old seal did not acknowledge this fact in the Royal Standard shown on it. The seal above shows a ship departing from the castle's watergate. The Royal Standard flying from the bow of the ship shows the arms of both England and France. Standing on the castle ramparts are two watchmen. The one on top of the castle has a trumpet and is standing with a signal beacon and a flag bearing a fleur-de-lis. The on on the right in one of the turrets simple has a trumpet. This seal was also in use, usually countersigned by the mayor's personal seal, until the 16th century. James Fawckner Nicholls and John Taylor in "Bristol Past and Present" describe another seal that was in use during the reign of Henry VIII (reigned from 1509 to 1547). They say that this seal shows a castle with two warders on separate towers, both blowing trumpets. The bow of a ship is seen leaving the watergate flying a Royal Standard that shows the arms of England and France with the number fleur-de-lis in the first quarter reduced to three, a change that took place in the reign of Henry V, who was King of England from 1413 to 1422. Whilst searching online for information for these pages I came across the website at Florida Educational Technology Clearinghouse which shows another version of the city seal... City of Bristol seal Arms of the City of Bristol From left to right these date from the 14th, 16th and 17th centuries Image from "John Cabot" by Marquis of Dufferin and Ava, published in Scribner's Magazine, Vol XXII, 1897 Crest and Supporters The biggest change to Bristol's arms came on 20th August, 1569 when Bristol was granted the right add supporters, the golden unicorns, and a crest, the arms rising through the clouds holding a serpent and scales it's arms. John Latimer in "Sixteenth Century Bristol" explains how this came about. In 1558, Queen Elizabeth I ascended the throne. Until then the annual muster of the "trained bands" had been largely ignored by Bristol, as well as most other cities. The governement started to insist that the annual muster of trained, armed men should take place and in 1561, some rusty old armour was found and dusted off. Twenty men were sent off with a quantity of gunpowder to the Gloucestershire muster with 6s 8d each for their trouble. They were not a success and their inclusion in the muster was regarded as derogatory. The city chamberlain was dispatched to London to plead for a reaffirmation of the city's rights and privileges which was granted. A little "grease" to oil the wheels of beaurocracy had to be applied though. For example, the Earl of Pembroke who was Lord High Steward of Bristol received a butt of sack - that is, 108 gallons of sweet wine, for his inconvenience. Amongst other things, the privileges meant that Bristol would now carry out its own annual musters. To add splendor to the muster, Latimer tells us that "12 ells of sarsanet, red, blue and yellow was purchased in London for £5 3s to make an ensign for the troops which was decorated with two buttons of gold and tassells. Sarsanet was a type of silk first imported by the Crusaders. An ell was a measure of cloth. 1 ell = 20 nails = 5 quarters (of the yard) = 45 inches. Also purchased were two drums to provide the marching beat. The next year the muster was carried out on the Marsh in Bristol where men with new uniforms were gathered. Payment of the troops cost the city £4 16s 8d. It was at this muster where feelings began to arise that what Bristol really needed was a crest and supporters to for its arms - just like London had theirs. The new crest and supporters cost Bristol £7, and once that was granted, a further £4 for a new seal engraved by goldsmith Giles Unyt. By 1570, the city could muster 160 men with new uniforms, equipment and guns with enough for 20 more stored in the Guildhall. The uniforms cost the city another £65 and consisted of cassocks with laced sleeves, breeches and iron corslets. This was quite a sizable force for a city of 6,000 inhabitants as Bristol then was. John Evans in his 1824 book "A Chronological Outline of the History of Bristol and the Stranger's Guide" describes the letter of patent... By a patent of "Robert Cooke esq, alias Clariencieux, principall and kinge of armes of the southe easte and weste partes of this realme of England from the river of Trente southewardes," the arms of the City of Bristol are declared to be "gules on a mount vert, issuant out of a castle silver upon wave, a ship golde;" and the crest and supporters now granted, "upon the heaulme in a wreathe golde and gules; issuant out of the cloudes two armes in saltour charnew, in the one hand a serpent vert, in the other a pair of balance gold; supported with two unicornes seant gold mained, horned; and clayed sables mantled gules dowbled silver." The motto, "Virtute et industria." The full text of this letter of patent is in both "Proceedings of the Clifton Antiquarian Club for 1904 - 1908" and John Latimer's "Sixteenth Century Bristol" To ALL AND SINGULAR AS WELL NOBLES AND GENTLEMEN and others to whom these presents shall come Robert Cooke esquire alias Clarencieux, Principall Heraulte and kinge of armes of the southe easte and weste partes of this realme of England from the river of trent southwardes sendithe humble comendacons and greeting FORASMOCHAS aunciently from the begining the valiaunt and vertuous actes of worthi persons have ben comended to the worlde with sondry monumets and remembrances of their good deserts, emongst the which the chiefest and most usuall hathe ben the bearing of signes in shildes caled armes which are evident demonstracons of prowes diversly distributed accordinge to the qualities and deserts of the persons meretinge the same to the end that suche as have done comendable service to their prince or country eyther in warre or peace may both receave due honor in their lives and also derive the same successively to their posteretie after them. AND WHEREAS THIS CITIE OF BRISTOLL hath of long time ben incorporate by the name of mayor and comonalty as by the moste noble prince of famouse memory Kinge Edward the third and laitely confirmed by the Quenes Majestie that now is by the name and names as is aforesaid by virtue of which corporation and sithens the first grant thereof there hathe ben auncient armes incident unto the said mayor and comonaltie that is to saye, gules, on a mount vert issuant out of a castle silver, uppon wave a ship golde, YET NOT UPSTANDING, UPPON divers consideratons they have required me the said Clarencieux kinge of armes to grant to their auncient armes a creaste, withe supportars due and lawfull to be borne, WHEREUPPON, CONSIDERING their worthines and knowenge their request to be reasonable, I have by vertue of my office of Clarencieux kinge of armes confirmed given and granted unto John Stone now mayor, John Hipsley recordar, David Harris, Willm Pepwell, Robert Sayer, Roger Jones and Willm Lawe, Aldermen, Thomas Crickland and Richard Yonge sherives, Robert Halton chamberlayn and Richard Willimot towneclarke, and to their successors in lief office, this Creaste and supportars herafter followenge that is to say, uppon the heaulme on a wreathe golde and gules, issuant out of the clowdes, two armes in saltour charnew in the one hand a serpent vert, in the other a pair of balance gold, supported with two unicorns seant gold mayned horned clayed sables mantled gules doubled silver as more playnely aperth depicted in the margent, To HAVE and HOLDE THE SAID armes creaste and supportars to the said mayor and comonalty and to their successors, and they it to use beare and shew for ever more without impediment let or interuption of any persons or persons, In Witness whereof I have subscribed my hande and set hereunto the seale of my office the fower and twentithe day of August in the yere of our Lorde God A thousand five hondrethe thre score and nyne, and in the eleventh yere of the reigne of our sovereigne lady Elizebethe, by the grace of God Quene of England France and Irelande, Defendor of the Faithe, et cet "Robert Cooke Alias Clarencieux" "Roy D'armes." Notice that the full version does not mention the city's motto "Virtute et industria." The article in "Proceedings of the Clifton Antiquarian Club for 1904 - 1908" also gives an illustration of the city of Bristol arms... City of Bristol arms Image from "Proceedings of the Clifton Antiquarian Club for 1904 - 1908" Symbolism The various elements that make up the arms mean something. The oldest part, the ship and castle, are pretty obvious.. other elements not so much. The unicorns will only do homage to men of virtue, hence the unicorns are seant (seated) rather than rampant (rearing up on their hind legs). The arms in the crest signify that good government depends on wisdom (the serpent) and justice (the scales) and that these are divine gifts from above - which is why the arms are rising out of a cloud. I've not found an explanation, or even a hint, of why the crest includes a helm. A search of internet heraldry websites does give a rough idea though. When included on arms the helm is placed above the shield and supports the crest. It does not always signify any particular achievement in armed conflict but the style does depend on the social rank of the bearer. Open helms were reserved for the nobility whilst closed helms, like that on the city's arms, were used for the commonality. Two slightly different version of Bristol's arms The Motto Although the text in John Evans' 1824 book "A Chronological Outline of the History of Bristol and the Stranger's Guide" gives the impression that the motto was introduced at the same time as the crest and supporters, the full text of the letter of patent by Robert Cooke Alias Clarencieux makes no mention of it. Mary Williams, the City Archivist, in her 1984 book, "Civic Treasures of Bristol", says that... "It is not known when Bristol first began to incorporate the motto "Virtute et Industria" (by Virtue and Industry), but this was possibly in the early eighteenth century." Errors of Depiction Alderman W. R. Barker J.P. (Justice of the Peace - a magistrate) made a study of the various forms of the arms and lamented on January 17th, 1908, as reported in "Proceedings of the Clifton Antiquarian Club for 1904 - 1908", the lack of conformity when reproducing the City of Bristol arms. He said "I might go so far as to say that every engraver and die-sinker, every printer and stationer, in dealing with our much-displayed city arms has put forward what has been most ready to hand, or what has appeared to make the prettiest picture, as the correct thing. There are several common errors which can sometimes be seen. One is that instead of issuing from the castle's watergate the ship is sometimes seen passing in front of the castle, or in Alderman Barker's words "creeping round from behind the castle". Sometimes the unicorns are seen rampant (rearing on their hind legs) instead of sitting on their haunches or even one or both replaced by lions. Alderman Barker also decried the use of the city's arms being unofficially used by various organizations and businesses, especially when they made changes to the design. Of course, some people are not happy with the addition of the crest and supporters at all. James Fawckner Nicholls and John Taylor in their 1881 book, "Bristol Past and Present" say... I cannot conclude this paper without expressing my regret that such a crest should have been assigned by any king of arms to such a grand old coat as that which has for six centuries distinguished the city of Bristol. The unicorns, but for their unpicturesque attitude, might be accepted, though not in the least applicable to the city; but the crest is designed in the very worst style of heraldic composition. They then illustrate the article with a version of the arms that Alderman Barker would not have liked at all as it shows the ship "creeping round from behind the castle"... Image from "Bristol Past and Present" by James Fawckner Nicholls and John Taylor, published by J. W. Arrowsmith, 1881 Badge As well as the seal and arms Bristol has a badge. Over the years many organizations and businesses have wanted to use all or portions of the arms as their logo or in advertising. The arms are properly reserved for the use of the city council but on 16th February, 1983, Bristol was granted the use of a badge for use by organizations other than the city council City of Bristol badge Image from "Civic Treasures of Bristol" by Mary E. Williams, published by City of Bristol, 1984 The badge symbolizes Bristol's maritime heritage and depicts the ship and castle surrounded by a rope. The fleur-de-lis represent the points of the compass and Bristol sailor's role in exploration. Logo Almost every department of the city council has its own logo as do organizations funded or sponsored by it. The main city council logo is a representation of the original seal of the city of Bristol... Bristol City Council logo There were other logos produced for special occasions or campaigns. One of the best was produced for the Bristol 600 celebrations in 1973 when Bristol celebrated it's 600th year of being a county in its own right... Bristol 600 logo Image from Bristol Evening Post, Bristol 600 souvenir program, 1973 This logo shows the supersonic airliner Concorde overflying a sailing ship. Concorde entered service in 1976 and was retired in 2003 - a remarkable length of time for a single type of civil aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Determined little bruiser that protects its territory with a vigour that belies its modest size. LJ.x Not sure the robin is ideal bird to represent us this season, FB. Can any ornithologists suggest a bird that doesn't defend its territory but stands around looking panic striken when other birds invade it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider head Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Not sure the robin is ideal bird to represent us this season, FB. Can any ornithologists suggest a bird that doesn't defend its territory but stands around looking panic striken when other birds invade it? Very much like our back four then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 I am very much in the camp of the City Crest on the shirt. Nevertheless we are and have always been called the Robins, so I would say put it on the shorts. It will represent the club and its nick name and the club will be able to market (differentiate) the shorts from run of the mill red/white shorts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the frampton balti Posted December 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Not sure the robin is ideal bird to represent us this season, FB. Can any ornithologists suggest a bird that doesn't defend its territory but stands around looking panic striken when other birds invade it? Woooooooah! The Robin is extremely famous for this in ornithological circles! true it has been said that 90% of birdsong is actually agressive behaviour. There is none so tough and yet still endearing as our little redbreasted friend. Do the people who want to persist with the city crest not accept that we are known as 'the robins' to the majority of the country. Lets embrace our little warrior. Pesonally i like the crest also but think it looks better when released from its white shield and on the sleeve. can the club not make a competition to design our new robin badge. cheltenham seem to have come up with something decent! We can do better! our identity is being hijacked by one of our closest neighbours. Lets get this sorted ASAP. Ps i seemed to have perched on the wrong end of the stick. I remember some time ago a certain Mr lansdown was considering rebranding with a new nickname similar to the cardiff dragons type thing . Apparently Robins arent tough enough.....!!! While were on the subject of ornithology I genuinely believe that if we'd got the RSPB involved in our wetland centre Stadium plans (less housing more wetland!) we could be looking forward to our first season at AV already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo7 Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Cider Head makes some very fair points, many of which are hard to disagree with. There is no doubt that we have many fans both in Bristol and otherwise who have no particular affection for the City of Bristol but it seems to me that if this is a valid argument for breaking (or even eroding) the link the link between City and Club it is an equally strong argument for changing the name of the Club - would supporters from Weston Super Mare and beyond prefer Robins FC or perhaps this is something else we could sell to the highest bidder? Any such move would certainly open the range of available sites for a new stadium. Association with (as well as location in) the City can be inferred from the name of the club. Conversely, a nickname is meaningless in the absence of common (affectionate or otherwise) usage and in my experience there has been little if any such common usage of the name "Robins" for several decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 I liked the Robin as a kid, but I really don't want it back now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the frampton balti Posted December 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 I liked the Robin as a kid, but I really don't want it back now. How interesting.....Whats changed? might it not be good to encourage young supporters then? robins are for kids, i prefer pirates these days!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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