The Rooney Rule

[LondonBristolian]

But where is this 'wealth of evidence' that black managers are being denied opportunities any more than anyone else. I agree that there is something of a jobs for the boys culture that makes it very difficult to get into football management, but that's the same for everyone. It's very difficult for any young manager to get a chance, whether they be white, black, asian whatever. I don't see it as a racial problem.

And with respect, the proportion of black players is totally irrelevant, at least for 10, 15 years until these players are retiring and looking to get into management. What is the ratio of people applying for jobs? Or getting their coaching badges? If the stat Monkeh posted above is correct, then it would suggest that the reason there aren't many black managers is that they aren't many trying to get into management.

 

We're already at the stage where players who came into football at the time there were significant numbers of black players playing are starting to retire.  I suspect if you compare the % of black players who've retired in the last ten years with the % of clubs with black managers, you'll find a significant difference between the two figures.    I don't know the ratio appyling for jobs but I'd say that, if people aren't applying for jobs because they don't think they stand a chance based on their race, that's still a problem.  I wouldn't take the fact not many black players have thought it worth their while taking the badges as proof they don't want to manage, just that they don't feel it's an opportunity for them.

[LondonBristolian]

There aren't any blind managers in the top leagues. Disgraceful.

 

Probably because of the lack of blind professional footballers.  You can't say the same of the lack of black managers.

[MarcusX]

I don't see any problem with this rule being adopted whatsoever.  Nobody would be forced to give a black candidate job; just give them the opportunity to present themselves and see what they say.

 

I completely agree with the people saying this shoudln't be necessary but the bottom line is that there's a wealth of evidence that the proporition of black managers compared to the proportion of black players which shows there is a problem and black people are not being considered.

 

I think half the problem is that football seems to exempt itself from standard employment law.  As TheKeynshamPele says, most companies would - by law - have a defined interview process where anyone could see how the decision made.  Instead football acts as an old boys' network where, say, Vincent Tan decides that Russell Slade would be quite good for the Cardiff job so picks up the phone and offers it to him.  And the problem is that clubs are scared to take risks so won't gamble on new managers and tend to go for managers who fit a model of what's gone before.  Mourinho does well and lots of European managers get offered jobs in England, for example.  So, because there are no role models for successful black managers, black managers are seldom given the opportunity.  Obviously you can point to Powell and Ince but really all that they prove is that, once a black manager does get an opportunity and is perceived as a manager, other opportunites will come their way but that does nothing to fix how hard it is for black managers to get their first chance.

 

I completely agree things should be purely merocratic.  But the fact is they aren't and it's just burying heads in the sand to keep giving white managers opportunites only and pretend it's a level playing field.

 

That's garbage. You got it partially right when you said clubs wont gamble on new managers. That's where it ends, nothing to do with colour.

 

It would be good to see if there are any black, or any other ethnicity, managers with the required coaching badges that are regularly getting overlooked? By that I mean applying for jobs and getting turned down.

 

You are right that the way owners / chairmen approach appointing a new manager is different to most businesses, but I don't see a problem with that. Its natural for an owner to look around and hand-pick a new manager based on their reputation.

 

Funnily enough, Chris Hughton was appointed by Norwich in this manner, so its not "only" white managers getting opportunities.

[MarcusX]

We're already at the stage where players who came into football at the time there were significant numbers of black players playing are starting to retire.  I suspect if you compare the % of black players who've retired in the last ten years with the % of clubs with black managers, you'll find a significant difference between the two figures.    I don't know the ratio appyling for jobs but I'd say that, if people aren't applying for jobs because they don't think they stand a chance based on their race, that's still a problem.  I wouldn't take the fact not many black players have thought it worth their while taking the badges as proof they don't want to manage, just that they don't feel it's an opportunity for them.

 

Again, rubbish. That's just a general assumption to back up your argument. That is identical to me saying they aren't applying because they don't want to manage. Neither of us know the truth or the facts behind this figure.

 

If it was the case that they don't think they stand a chance then that's just an excuse. My advice would be their attitude needs to change, get their badges, apply for jobs and then cause a fuss they aren't getting the opportunity. That goes for anyone, regardless of ethnicity.

[Guest]

I don't see any problem with this rule being adopted whatsoever.  Nobody would be forced to give a black candidate job; just give them the opportunity to present themselves and see what they say.

 

I completely agree with the people saying this shoudln't be necessary but the bottom line is that there's a wealth of evidence that the proporition of black managers compared to the proportion of black players which shows there is a problem and black people are not being considered.

 

I think half the problem is that football seems to exempt itself from standard employment law.  As TheKeynshamPele says, most companies would - by law - have a defined interview process where anyone could see how the decision made.  Instead football acts as an old boys' network where, say, Vincent Tan decides that Russell Slade would be quite good for the Cardiff job so picks up the phone and offers it to him.  And the problem is that clubs are scared to take risks so won't gamble on new managers and tend to go for managers who fit a model of what's gone before.  Mourinho does well and lots of European managers get offered jobs in England, for example.  So, because there are no role models for successful black managers, black managers are seldom given the opportunity.  Obviously you can point to Powell and Ince but really all that they prove is that, once a black manager does get an opportunity and is perceived as a manager, other opportunites will come their way but that does nothing to fix how hard it is for black managers to get their first chance.

 

I completely agree things should be purely merocratic.  But the fact is they aren't and it's just burying heads in the sand to keep giving white managers opportunites only and pretend it's a level playing field.

 

The rule is ludicrous. All it does is suggest that there is inherent racism where there is no clear evidence that it exists.

 

It is also incredibly patronising. When Man Utd were appointing Moyes' successor do you honestly think that they should waste their director's time, their secretary's time in arranging, the 'candidates' time in going and meeting and preparing just so they could fill a quota if there were no genuine viable candidate to fill said quota.

 

All the rule will perpetuate is the idea that once these ethnic minority candidates get an interview, in some instances based upon their skin colour or background and not upon suitability or viability, if and when they do not get the role there was some bias in the interview process. Absolute bollox.

 

Idea's like this, trying to create equality which in fact do nothing more than create inequality really wind me up. As someone said above, Jason Roberts is one of the biggest hypocrites in the world and I would love nothing more than to see someone put him to an intelligent debate rather than pander to his soundbites because of some sort of fear. His perpetual spouting of one of the biggest evils in the world (racism) for his own self interests is nothing short of vile. The man is scum of the highest order. Similarly with Sol Campbell trying to line his back pocket with a few more quids by playing the shock racism card. I'm sure those equality activists of years gone by would be deeply ashamed by the actions of men like these.

[bcfctim]

We're already at the stage where players who came into football at the time there were significant numbers of black players playing are starting to retire. I suspect if you compare the % of black players who've retired in the last ten years with the % of clubs with black managers, you'll find a significant difference between the two figures. I don't know the ratio appyling for jobs but I'd say that, if people aren't applying for jobs because they don't think they stand a chance based on their race, that's still a problem. I wouldn't take the fact not many black players have thought it worth their while taking the badges as proof they don't want to manage, just that they don't feel it's an opportunity for them.

If you've got an attitude of oh it's hard to get an opportunity so I won't bother trying then I'd suggest you haven't got the drive and determination required to be a good manager anyway. It's sad if some feel like that but that's a very poor attitude.

[LondonBristolian]

The rule is ludicrous. All it does is suggest that there is inherent racism where there is no clear evidence that it exists.

 

It is also incredibly patronising. When Man Utd were appointing Moyes' successor do you honestly think that they should waste their director's time, their secretary's time in arranging, the 'candidates' time in going and meeting and preparing just so they could fill a quota.

 

All the rule will perpetuate is the idea that once these ethnic minority candidates get an interview, in some instances based upon their skin colour or background and not upon suitability or viability, if and when they do not get the role there was some bias in the interview process. Absolute bollox.

 

Idea's like this, trying to create equality which in fact do nothing more than create inequality really wind me up. As someone said above, Jason Roberts is one of the biggest hypocrites in the world and I would love nothing more than to see someone put him to an intelligent debate rather than pander to his soundbites because of some sort of fear. His perpetual spouting of one of the biggest evils in the world (racism) for his own self interests is nothing short of vile. The man is scum of the highest order. Similarly with Sol Campbell trying to line his back pocket with a few more quids by playing the shock racism card. I'm sure those equality activists of years gone by would be deeply ashamed by the actions of men like these.

 

It's largely been seen as a success in America.

[Guest]

It's largely been seen as a success in America.

 

Jolly for them. Perhaps they had an issue that needed combating and perhaps that was a good method.

 

1) I don't agree we have an issue that needs sorting and there is not quantitative or qualitative evidence that we do. We have had black managers in all four divisions, we have had black managers that have been successful in repeat appointments, we have had rookie black managers get jobs at high profile clubs, we have even had a foreign manager manage our national side.

 

2) What works in one country or is seen as a success in one, may not work or may not be a success in another.

 

Finally, what on earth is considered a success. Is there some sort of follow up quota on who gets the job. Is an increase in that quota necessarily indicative of success, or could that be a danger in itself - wrong person wrong job, etc etc etc.

 

Positive discrimination is just as evil as discrimination in my eyes.

[LondonBristolian]

Jolly for them. Perhaps they had an issue that needed combating and perhaps that was a good method.

 

1) I don't agree we have an issue that needs sorting and there is not quantitative or qualitative evidence that we do. We have had black managers in all four divisions, we have had black managers that have been successful in repeat appointments, we have had rookie black managers get jobs at high profile clubs, we have even had a foreign manager manage our national side.

 

2) What works in one country or is seen as a success in one, may not work or may not be a success in another.

 

Finally, what on earth is considered a success. Is there some sort of follow up quota on who gets the job. Is an increase in that quota necessarily indicative of success, or could that be a danger in itself - wrong person wrong job, etc etc etc.

 

Positive discrimination is just as evil as discrimination in my eyes.

 

Maybe so but there's a difference between positive discrimination and equality of opportunity.  I disagree with positive discrimination but this isn't positive discrimination.  If a quota were set, or if clubs were told they had to appoint non-white managers, that would be positive discrimination.  But that's not what's happening here.

[Guest]

Maybe so but there's a difference between positive discrimination and equality of opportunity.  I disagree with positive discrimination but this isn't positive discrimination.  If a quota were set, or if clubs were told they had to appoint non-white managers, that would be positive discrimination.  But that's not what's happening here.

 

But I come back to it, where is the evidence, evidence of any actual inequality.

 

Paul Ince calls for the Rooney rule. Okay Paul, why don't you tell us which roles YOU have applied for and for which YOU were not invited to interview. Then we can identify whether it was probable that you just weren't a suitable candidate or that there may have been some other agenda.

 

Funny that Malky Mackay and Ian Moody, both very successful in there roles were quickly bombed out by football clubs when it was identified that they had acted immorally!!!!! But no there must be something inherently wrong with the system because hate campaigner Jason Roberts and his croonies suggest so.

 

Youtube 'Paul Ince too good too bad' and take a look at his tactical prowess. Racism? Nah...

 

And the equality of opportunity here is a quota - a quota to interview someone of such a background. That is positive discrimination.

[Robin1988]

The Rooney rule is counter productive. But to pretend racism isn't a problem in football is equally stupid.

[WhistleHappy]

It's largely been seen as a success in America.

.... 'Nuff said !!!

bollocks to that then ffs

[Guest]

The Rooney rule is counter productive. But to pretend racism isn't a problem in football is equally stupid.

 

There are isolated incidents of racism in football of course, just like there are throughout society and in across borders. They are fewer and further between here than say, Italy, Spain, Russia and other eastern european countries because that reflects the wider society as a whole, but I wholeheartedly do not agree that anyone can state that the lack of prevelance of black managers is because of racism.There isn't reasonable evidence to back that notion up, not systematically.

 

It may actually be the case, but no-one has put the case forward with any evidence and in fact it comes across as a hate campaign without substance.

[cider-manc]

Personally I think you only have to look at the stats on the bbc article to know that there is already a growing change.

 

At present 18% of players currently on FA coaching courses are black or other ethnic minorities. Considering that 25% of players are non-white that is a fair representation- It needs to be given time to change and can't happen over night.

 

There is racism in the game (no one is going to pretend that there isn't) and measures need to be taken to prevent it- I'm just not sure this is one of the occasions where action is needed.

[WhistleHappy]

Am I the only one to have heard of this 'Rooney rule' for the first time in this thread?

and went on to wonder wtf Wayne Rooney's interest in this subject was?

Only to check it out and discover its American origins and some other bloke called Rooney is behind it... makes sense though, that this unworkable/pointless idea (in this country, for our National game) was spawned over there.

(Wayne wouldn't be so stupid to have started this - & that says a lot)

[UK0wnag3]

There aren't any blind managers in the top leagues. Disgraceful.

I don't know about that, ol' Arsene doesn't see a lot now does he?

[The Fat Controller]

There aren't any blind managers in the top leagues. Disgraceful.

 

But plenty of partially sighted officials.

[Red Skin]

It's largely been seen as a success in America.

Lots of companies will guarantee an interview for someone who considered themselves to have a disability if the candidate chooses to take advantage of this. (I have a disability but have never took this option up). It's all about addressing under representation in the workforce and to counter the natural propensity of some people to only consider 'people like themselves'. This isn't necessarily because they are racist. Personally, I don't see the problem with giving someone the chance of an interview. If you are the best person for the job you will see off the black candidate and all the others too.

[cityexile]

I wonder if this is partially generational?

 

What I mean by that is there are more black players now than there used to be. Most managers are older clearly, and I wonder if you compare them to their generation of footballers, how out of sync the representation is? In truth I do not know, just posing the question. 

 

What was considered 'banter' back in the day, is now considered entirely inappropriate, quite rightly. I can remember going to games when other fans would chant 'we're all white', or going to work after a game with colleagues who would say 'for a laugh' Andy Cole was ok as he was now 'an honorary white man'. AG was really no better or worse than many grounds. We should not forget how far we have come, or believe it is now totally solved. 

 

For me, IF this is considered an issue that needs dealing with, I would much rather there was positive action in developing young potential black managers, giving them the skills to succeed and build successful cvs. At the stage of who gets the job, or indeed who is interviewed should be entirely colour blind in my view. If there are prats still in the recruitment system who are racist, then like any other employer, sue their butt off.

 

I would judge (I like to think) the success of any manager of this club by results, not the colour of their skin, their sexual orientation, their disability or whatever (unless they had to strong a gashead background of course...). They must however be the best candidate for the job. 

[And Its Smith]

Imagine Arsene Wenger gets sacked at Arsenal.

 

The chairman says to the Director of Football "So, who are we interviewing for the manager's position then?"

 

"Well, we have Pepe Guardiola,  Jurgen Klopp,  Marco Van Basten and Paul Ince."  

 

Ridiculous.

[BrizzleRed]

I think football must be one of the most success driven industries/professions anywhere, so anybody showing ability will be given a chance, regardless of any other factors.  

 

You only have to look at the long list of total scumbag footballers who have continued to be taken on by clubs after committing serious assaults, rapes, sexual assaults, etc.  This doesn't seem to put the clubs off re-employing them, sometimes after serving a prison sentence, as long as they do the business on the pitch, so i don't see any reason why a black coach or manager would be overlooked because of their colour.  Funnily enough, I can think of at least a couple of black footballers who have some serious misdemeanors to their names and that hasn't harmed their future employment in the game.  How can it be that black footballers with criminal records, don't appear to be discriminated against, but black coaches or managers are? 

 

If they can do a job well and get results, why would football reject them because they are black?  If they can get results, the drive by clubs for success will ensure they get the jobs and this racist crap is just an excuse used by certain people to try to cover up the fact that they just aren't very good at their jobs.

 

Paul Ince is a classic example of this and the big mouth that regularly got him into trouble on the pitch is just making him look a prat off of it ...... again!!! 

[Red Skin]

Imagine Arsene Wenger gets sacked at Arsenal.

The chairman says to the Director of Football "So, who are we interviewing for the manager's position then?"

"Well, we have Pepe Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp, Marco Van Basten and Paul Ince."

Ridiculous.

Rooneys Law isn't about giving Paul Ince an interview!! That would be ridiculous. How about Gullit, Seedorf or Kluivert being given an interview?

I know this is about Rooneys Law but British managers are under represented in the Premiership, so would interviewing at least one British manager (regardless of colour) be a good thing?

[formerly known as ivan]

Rooneys Law isn't about giving Paul Ince an interview!! That would be ridiculous. How about Gullit, Seedorf or Kluivert being given an interview?

I know this is about Rooneys Law but British managers are under represented in the Premier League, so would interviewing at least one British manager (regardless of colour) be a good thing?

Ask man utd fans that question about Moyes!

[Mike Litoris]

The interview process is not the issue. It's got everything to do with the hierarchy in English football being stuck in the 1970s.

By the 1990s over twenty percent of all footballers were black in Britain. This despite the black population being a much lower percentage. It is curious that black players are over represented but black managers are not. In the slightest.

That's an issue. Not necessarily a race issue (although with an FA ran by rich old men, it would be logical to assume that it plays a role)

Is anyone going to tell me that the likes of Cyril Regis, Luther Blisset and Ricky Hill didn't have something to offer English football beyond their playing career? That John Barnes, arguably one of the best players to play in this country had nothing to offer beyond one or two chances? But people like Dowie, John Beck and Graham ******* Kavanagh do?

What a load of shit. But let's sweep the issue under the carpet and blame those liberals and PC bellends eh? Much easier.

[Monkeh]

The interview process is not the issue. It's got everything to do with the hierarchy in English football being stuck in the 1970s.

By the 1990s over twenty percent of all footballers were black in Britain. This despite the black population being a much lower percentage. It is curious that black players are over represented but black managers are not. In the slightest.

That's an issue. Not necessarily a race issue (although with an FA ran by rich old men, it would be logical to assume that it plays a role)

Is anyone going to tell me that the likes of Cyril Regis, Luther Blisset and Ricky Hill didn't have something to offer English football beyond their playing career? That John Barnes, arguably one of the best players to play in this country had nothing to offer beyond one or two chances? But people like Dowie, John Beck and Graham ******* Kavanagh do?

What a load of shit. But let's sweep the issue under the carpet and blame those liberals and PC bellends eh? Much easier.

192 uefa pro coaches in this country only 14 of those are black,

if they got out and got their liecences and we still only had 1 black manager then it would be an issue,

 

this screams of ex footballers who still think football owes them a living dispite them not having the badges you need for modern football management these days,

[Guest]

The interview process is not the issue. It's got everything to do with the hierarchy in English football being stuck in the 1970s.

By the 1990s over twenty percent of all footballers were black in Britain. This despite the black population being a much lower percentage. It is curious that black players are over represented but black managers are not. In the slightest.

That's an issue. Not necessarily a race issue (although with an FA ran by rich old men, it would be logical to assume that it plays a role)

Is anyone going to tell me that the likes of Cyril Regis, Luther Blisset and Ricky Hill didn't have something to offer English football beyond their playing career? That John Barnes, arguably one of the best players to play in this country had nothing to offer beyond one or two chances? But people like Dowie, John Beck and Graham ******* Kavanagh do?

What a load of shit. But let's sweep the issue under the carpet and blame those liberals and PC bellends eh? Much easier.

 

Look at Monkeh's post again. The real question is why black people are underrepresented on the courses, not why they are underrepresented in managerial roles. If anything considering 14 hold them they are arguably adequately represented from that pool. There is nothing to suggest that the problem lies at the board room at football clubs, hence the rooney rule is redundant.

 

If black people become represented as licence holders and still there are only a few managers then this is a debate worth having, but until then it is just sound bites from morons who are acting in their own self interests.

 

As for John Barnes worth another shot ask yourself this: Would you be content if John Barnes replaced Steve Cotterril when his time comes to an end, or back in 2010 when Johnson left would you have given him a shot post Tranmere?.. or would you laugh your bollox off if then or now he was appointed by Bristol Rovers and consider it conclusive proof of Higgs' agent status...? Nothing to do with race there, it is pure incompentence.

 

As for John Beck getting roles correct me if I am wrong but hasn't he been outside the football league for the past decade? As for Graham Kavanagh he's only had his one chance and that was at Carlisle after becoming a coach, assistant and caretaker, rising through the ranks. I say he got his chance because he earned it. He had a very tough job there and I would expect someone would take a punt on him, just like Tranmere did on Barnes after Celtic. If after that he's no good, he may have to start as a coach again and work up, which John Barnes could have done.

[Monkeh]

the other issue I have with this is, wheres the proof black people are being over looked? how many have applied for jobs,

 

If I apply for every managers postion that becomes available between now and the end of the season can I cry foul that I'm being over looked because I'm from Bristol? or because I'm of an irish decent?

[Monkeh]

Jump media player

[Mike Litoris]

Look at Monkeh's post again. The real question is why black people are underrepresented on the courses, not why they are underrepresented in managerial roles. If anything considering 14 hold them they are arguably adequately represented from that pool. There is nothing to suggest that the problem lies at the board room at football clubs, hence the rooney rule is redundant.

If black people become represented as licence holders and still there are only a few managers then this is a debate worth having, but until then it is just sound bites from morons who are acting in their own self interests.

As for John Barnes worth another shot ask yourself this: Would you be content if John Barnes replaced Steve Cotterril when his time comes to an end, or back in 2010 when Johnson left would you have given him a shot post Tranmere?.. or would you laugh your bollox off if then or now he was appointed by Bristol Rovers and consider it conclusive proof of Higgs' agent status...? Nothing to do with race there, it is pure incompentence.

As for John Beck getting roles correct me if I am wrong but hasn't he been outside the football league for the past decade? As for Graham Kavanagh he's only had his one chance and that was at Carlisle after becoming a coach, assistant and caretaker, rising through the ranks. I say he got his chance because he earned it. He had a very tough job there and I would expect someone would take a punt on him, just like Tranmere did on Barnes after Celtic. If after that he's no good, he may have to start as a coach again and work up, which John Barnes could have done.

John Beck had a very important role at the FA.

And Kavanagh is a****. Basically.

[WTFiGO!?!]

How come Wayne Rooney got put in charge of making a rule, anyway? I thought he hated rules!

Unlike Wayne though, I'm rather undecided about all this. Just grateful that as a white, heterosexual male I'm in a majority group as I can't stand discrimination (apart from when it's against gas heads - for whom I actively encourage it ).