alexukhc Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Any black people on this forum? What are your views? My view, a white male there are black managers but most are starting off at conference level or at an even lower level, yet a white man with next to nothing/ considerably less experience is given more of a chance in the leagues. I don't agree with what Roberts is saying, he brings on more than the question asked, but essentially football is still struggling with even the simplistic of things these days like race and homophobia and it's getting old and boring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Any black people on this forum? What are your views? My view, a white male there are black managers but most are starting off at conference level or at an even lower level, yet a white man with next to nothing/ considerably less experience is given more of a chance in the leagues. I don't agree with what Roberts is saying, he brings on more than the question asked, but essentially football is still struggling with even the simplistic of things these days like race and homophobia and it's getting old and boring Hope so otherwise we will get slated by Roberts and Co! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK0wnag3 Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Hope so otherwise we will get slated by Roberts and Co! No more white guys on this forum until every other race is properly represented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Any black people on this forum? What are your views? My view, a white male there are black managers but most are starting off at conference level or at an even lower level, yet a white man with next to nothing/ considerably less experience is given more of a chance in the leagues. I don't agree with what Roberts is saying, he brings on more than the question asked, but essentially football is still struggling with even the simplistic of things these days like race and homophobia and it's getting old and boring - Chris Powell, started as caretaker at Leicester then got the Charlton Job in League One. - Chris Hughton, started as a coach in the Prem (Spurs, Newcastle), Caretaker at Newcastle in Championship, took the job, then Brum job in Championship, then Premier League Norwich. - Paul Ince, coach at Swindon, then managed Macclesfield league two, then MK Dons, then Premier League Blackburn, back to MK Dons, then Notts County, then Blackpool - Note 6 managerial stints in 8 years and this bloke is calling for the Rooney rule - he ain't effing struggled has he? - Chris Kiwomya, started reserve manager at Ipswich, Notts Countyjob in League One. - Edgar Davids, player manager in Barnet at League two. So contrary to what you think, not one of those black managers in the game last year started their career in the conference or lower... in fact all started in League One or above with the exception of Edgar Davids, which itself was a player manager role and slightly different circumstances, and Paul Ince, who had only just done his badges and no real background coaching role to demonstrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexukhc Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Edgar Davids was appointed purely on what he's done in the game Chris Kiwomya worked towards getting his last job, but where next? Chris Houghton fair play, very respected in the game and gas been coaching for awhile, probably our finest black coach and should get a job soon Paul Ince, pure poor, shows good captains don't make great good coaches Chris Powell did well at Charlton, but after the foreign ownership of them take over the club it was clear they had someone else in mind, the person taking over got the sack soon after and have someone else in charge now, I hope Chris does well for Huddersfield But who else? Leroy R was an ok coach, so was Noel Blake when at Exeter, the late Keith Alexander did very well at Macclesfield and Lincoln, but that was a couple tears ago now Who's next in line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTFiGO!?! Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Edgar Davids was appointed purely on what he's done in the game Chris Kiwomya worked towards getting his last job, but where next? Chris Houghton fair play, very respected in the game and gas been coaching for awhile, probably our finest black coach and should get a job soon Paul Ince, pure poor, shows good captains don't make great good coaches Chris Powell did well at Charlton, but after the foreign ownership of them take over the club it was clear they had someone else in mind, the person taking over got the sack soon after and have someone else in charge now, I hope Chris does well for Huddersfield But who else? Leroy R was an ok coach, so was Noel Blake when at Exeter, the late Keith Alexander did very well at Macclesfield and Lincoln, but that was a couple tears ago now Who's next in line?S'pose the question is, which black guys are not given an opportunity who want one? Another point is that, in the football media on TV, there is no under-representation. Dwight Yorke, Rio Ferdinand, Garth Crooks, Jason Roberts, Clarke Carlisle have all done stints of punditry... Ruud Gullit, John Barnes, Ian Wright. It's all a little uncomforting to be honest, the best people for the job should get the jobs, but the world doesn't work like that. Another issue is: why at City are the predominant of attendees white? A whole host of reasons I should think, only hope an undercurrent of racism isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Edgar Davids was appointed purely on what he's done in the game Chris Kiwomya worked towards getting his last job, but where next? Chris Houghton fair play, very respected in the game and gas been coaching for awhile, probably our finest black coach and should get a job soon Paul Ince, pure poor, shows good captains don't make great good coaches Chris Powell did well at Charlton, but after the foreign ownership of them take over the club it was clear they had someone else in mind, the person taking over got the sack soon after and have someone else in charge now, I hope Chris does well for Huddersfield But who else? Leroy R was an ok coach, so was Noel Blake when at Exeter, the late Keith Alexander did very well at Macclesfield and Lincoln, but that was a couple tears ago now Who's next in line? That's not the point though. You said Black managers have to start at the conference or below disproportionately to white manager and there's a third of licence holders who didn't have to which shows that simply isn't the case. The 'perceived' racism just is not true. Those managers between them have 15 or so appointments at one time or another all within the football leagues. As for who next, that depends who has the desire and appetite for it as opposed to the plethora of other options, such as that taken by Patrick Viera at Man City. I might be banging on about this but cheap shots using racism as a sword really are sickening and disgust me when there is no reasonable basis or substance to it. Paul Ince, with the number of appointments he has at premiership, championship' leagues one and two really is taking the mick throwing his weight behind a Rooney rule. If anything he should be standing up and saying 'I'm proof that you can get appointed and so are X, Y, Z; there must be other reasons'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin1988 Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 It would be fair to say none of us can form any kind of informed opinion on this really; without knowing the shortlists and being inside the managerial game, how exactly can you say there is or isn't bias? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Just a thought/question: why are people labelled as white, black and mixed race with the mixed race people being classed as black? Surely mixed race is just as much white as black but the emphasis is on the black? Does this come from the person themselves or the media saying anything other than pure white is different? I couldn't care less what colour a person is as long as they do their job correctly and professionally, whether it is managing my football team or serving me in the supermarket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiz Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 What ever next a female prime minister a black president ...... being serious how far do you go ....why are there no females in the prem. I do believe it will evovle and we will see black managers. And in time a players sexuality will not matter. I believe in equality but equality means that everyone gets a fair chance and the best person gets the prize Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephjnr Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 There aren't any blind managers in the top leagues. Disgraceful. There are also no 75-year-old prostitutes managing football teams. I think this rule could start to reverse that trend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 There aren't any blind managers in the top leagues. Disgraceful. There's a few blind refs though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Litoris Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 There's a few blind refs though! Getting a bit slow Robbo! Joke done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Getting a bit slow Robbo! Joke done... Or a bit blind meself....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridge Batch Red Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Where are the homosexual football managers? In fact where are the homosexual footballers? What's going on? We know we've got Brighton proudly flying the pride flag as homosexual football fans but something is amiss on the field and in the dugout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPegg Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 There are 192 Uefa Pro Licence owners in England, and 14 of those are black coaches Shows that more need to do there badges before they can say that from seeing this, like others have said if you're good enough you'll be considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Radio 5 live talking to Brooking and our Paul Mortimer right now about this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Litoris Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Radio 5 live talking to Brooking and our Paul Mortimer right now about this god, he was shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 god, he was shit. Yup, and apparently the discussion was so interesting they have made it the phone in, so he is on again right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne allisons tongues Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 The annoying part was Paul Mortimer saying he applied for jobs and never very often got a reply. Doesn't that happen to everyone in life when applying for jobs. Football is a funny business, one manager is sacked and 24hrs later someone else is in place. Unless the whole manager interview thing is changed completely can't see how this will work properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 The annoying part was Paul Mortimer saying he applied for jobs and never very often got a reply. Doesn't that happen to everyone in life when applying for jobs. Football is a funny business, one manager is sacked and 24hrs later someone else is in place. Unless the whole manager interview thing is changed completely can't see how this will work properly. how many clubs has mortimer managed? how many clubs has he coached at? does he hold the uefa licences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 how many clubs has mortimer managed? None how many clubs has he coached at? Four, the latter 2 under his mate Leroy at Torquay and latterly at Brentford where they were extremely unsuccessful. does he hold the uefa licences? No idea, also I would love to know which jobs he has applied for and considers himself viable for and then which managers were appointed instead of him. It's very easy to tell half of a story to suit your own purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockleazeRed Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Deleted post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Where are the homosexual football managers? In fact where are the homosexual footballers? What's going on? We know we've got Brighton proudly flying the pride flag as homosexual football fans but something is amiss on the field and in the dugout. I'm no expert, but I would suggest that it's comments such as this, in which you've attempted to dress up homophobia as humour, that are part of the problem. Even if only because it shows the attitude towards gay people held by many football fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manon Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 That's actually a fair comment. You've kind of answered your own question there KC. With regards to the Rooney Rule, it's a bit pathetic, as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 I don't see any problem with this rule being adopted whatsoever. Nobody would be forced to give a black candidate job; just give them the opportunity to present themselves and see what they say. I completely agree with the people saying this shoudln't be necessary but the bottom line is that there's a wealth of evidence that the proporition of black managers compared to the proportion of black players which shows there is a problem and black people are not being considered. I think half the problem is that football seems to exempt itself from standard employment law. As TheKeynshamPele says, most companies would - by law - have a defined interview process where anyone could see how the decision made. Instead football acts as an old boys' network where, say, Vincent Tan decides that Russell Slade would be quite good for the Cardiff job so picks up the phone and offers it to him. And the problem is that clubs are scared to take risks so won't gamble on new managers and tend to go for managers who fit a model of what's gone before. Mourinho does well and lots of European managers get offered jobs in England, for example. So, because there are no role models for successful black managers, black managers are seldom given the opportunity. Obviously you can point to Powell and Ince but really all that they prove is that, once a black manager does get an opportunity and is perceived as a manager, other opportunites will come their way but that does nothing to fix how hard it is for black managers to get their first chance. I completely agree things should be purely merocratic. But the fact is they aren't and it's just burying heads in the sand to keep giving white managers opportunites only and pretend it's a level playing field. and what would happen if black applicants still didn't get very many jobs?, what will it prove?, the same people would use the figures as being discrimination, it proves nothing except that one short listed applicant may only be there by default and not by right, this won't help it'll make matters worse if anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Discrimination is discrimination and whatever form is abhorrent - that includes the so called "positive" (sic). The issue with under representation is usually the gobsh**e mouthpieces are prime examples of why certain racial minorities don't break through to the top. For every elegant Henry there are dozens of Jason Roberts. I recall one of his first outings on radio when he opined on this very subject. I was beaten to the phone-in by one fan who reminded the unreliable nomark that the attitude he displayed at our place was exactly the reason he subsequently struggled to gain post retirement employment and given his banal prattle there's an argument to be had that he owes his current employment at the Beeb more to their Rooney Rule than any semblance of talent. Of course the bloke was cut short at risk of being accused of racism. I also had an unusual meeting with Curle in an offbeat venue whilst watching football and frankly, were I a Chairman, I wouldn't have the bloke cutting the grass let alone building the team. Chris Powell is hugely popular in my neighbourhood and is going about building his reputation in exactly the right way, by showing his skill in creating a team in his own likeness - the bloke's a class act. He dies so by letting his actions do the talking. Hopefully other Black players will follow his lead. Note too those who clamour for quotas probably exacerbate the problem. I wonder how many chairman have pulled back from appointing a manager for fear if and when they needed sacking the race card (a la Ince) would be played? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olé Posted October 4, 2014 Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 I already knew a lot about the Rooney rule as I've followed the NFL, and to say it should apply here is nonsense, there is no comparison. The number of black players in the NFL was by proportion far higher as far back as the sixties, but this wasn't translating to top level head coaching roles in the 80s and 90s. But there was a far bigger selection pool as every team has 10+ coaches for different positions, 3 of which at least are effectively head coach elect. That's nearly 100 potential head coaches just in the NFL, then the same again across 50+ college teams. There were and are black coaches throughout that, but in some "boardrooms" that wasn't translating into black head coaches as the figurehead of the team. The Rooney rule was to prevent "good old boys" white owners turning a blind eye but also just to give black coaches the experience of going through the process so they could get future jobs on their own merits. This was a particularly emotive issue, a majority of the players were and are black, and far more people in the stands are compare to football. Now, in football, the pool of potential Prem managers is not 150 people, nor is it even in the Championship either. So there isn't that group from which there are plenty of overlooked black candidates. Further, as others have said, unlike the NFL we have a qualification system (licences) which specifically measure the suitability of candidates so the potential to interview for jobs is a matter of public record, if taken alongside experience at other clubs moving up the ladder. So there isn't any affirmative action needed to promote the credentials of black coaches for new jobs, other than black coaches doing the licences and taking on appropriate level jobs. There is plenty wrong in how football is run, but hiring managers is not one of them, it is self policed, can you imagine the outcry from fans if a club hired someone who wasn't thought to be the best or best available for the job? (cough Steve Cotterril cough) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted October 4, 2014 Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 Imagine Arsene Wenger gets sacked at Arsenal. The chairman says to the Director of Football "So, who are we interviewing for the manager's position then?" "Well, we have Pepe Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp, Marco Van Basten and Paul Ince." Ridiculous. Dave you have just restored my faith in humanity and perhaps liberalism can survive the last 5 years of 'incest', if you believe it to be ridiculous, then it must be a no brainer. Where would one draw the line?. Black. Asian. Hispanic. Mediterranean. Gay. Female. The list is endless and it could be held that if Black people are specifically included then it must be wrong not to include any other minority. The upshot will be clubs will not ask for applicants or hold interviews, they will just select their new man, game over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted October 4, 2014 Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 Dave you have just restored my faith in humanity and perhaps liberalism can survive the last 5 years of 'incest', if you believe it to be ridiculous, then it must be a no brainer. Where would one draw the line?. Black. Asian. Hispanic. Mediterranean. Gay. Female. The list is endless and it could be held that if Black people are specifically included then it must be wrong not to include any other minority. The upshot will be clubs will not ask for applicants or hold interviews, they will just select their new man, game over. As indeed we did when we appointed SC. Have you ever been at a job interview and realised from moment one that you're there to make up the numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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