Silvio Dante

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just imagine though, if you’d used those limited funds in August rather than January!  That’s always been a big thing for me.  I will never be able to square that off in my head, coupled with “you want a CB, here’s Daniel Ayala”.  Hey ho!

“…and that was the crayoning snake with their August chart topper “Wilful Sabotage”

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

My god. No wonder he played better Saturday when the sun was out. The dazzle off those bastards must be hell for defenders.

6 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Amazing that Pearson wasn’t told that he was sacked for results and he wasnt told about the fear the players were being de-conditioned.  Shows what slime balls we have running this club 

The line on the deconditioning piece that “The chairman should have talked to the technical director” was very revealing. Basically it sounds from that like Tinnion knew the training plan and raised no objections.

So, he’s either a snake and said something to Jon he didn’t say to Nige, or had no idea Jon was going to come out with that bullshit.

Either way….

On the bit about us:

- Learnt afterwards that it was about results

- Heard in an “interview” afterwards that players were in danger of being deconditioned and the chairman should have talked to the technical director

- Didn’t know City would make “reasons” public

- Allardyce opined that City may have broken confidentiality clause and Nige could just respond and reply - Nige “Yeah but you don’t need to do that”

- Nige said he was concentrating on his health at present mentioning back and neurological problems but he was getting better. Said he was a football manager not a coach - but he could coach - and he’s not a head coach - “The fad appears to be at the moment get a young coach. Is football suffering with ageism”

- Doesn’t sound as if he’s retiring “Sure they’ll be another opportunity and when it comes I want to enjoy the challenge”

- “Success can be relative. It can be avoiding relegation and cutting a wage bill”

- Keeps an eye out on us. Enjoys living down here, beautiful area, bought some woodland. Thinks he had a good connection with a lot of the people. Some really good people here, keeps in touch with people at training ground

- Fanbase here are patient and knowledgeable - results weren’t always great but they could see past that. Complex job in reshaping the squad. It’s a good club in the sense of academy catchment area, academy tries to develop players. Circumstances in where had to reduce wage bill means fortunate that academy was producing - 

- Although didn’t end amicably the staff worked the best they could. Thinks Liam inherited “a very decent situation, let’s put it like that”

26 minutes ago, Were you at Mansfield? said:

One has just crossed into the higher category so accept that’s just life, but one is still ‘under 12’. In answer to your question,  yes it suits them better. We’re only a few blocks from section 82 and they like the atmosphere (one to debate on another topic!), and we like who we sit by.

I guess if my kids were a few years younger, maybe I would have been more open to relocating.

You kind of touch on another topic in your last line - and that is what the kids who are a few years younger do in 2-3 years time. Too young to go without an adult, too old to want to sit in the family area. By not selling new STs for the South Stand, the club have created a major problem going forward (possibly by intent) - that dad/mum with kids is forced to get a ST in a more expensive part of the ground when the move comes.

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Firstly, agree with your earlier post, as I said not black and white, more a generic thought process on ins and outs.  If Tommy goes, and we bring in Dean, then that also gives scope to improve elsewhere, so not necessarily just one out / one in.  There’s too many moving parts really to be categoric.

Re @ExiledAjax, we can’t afford for our no9 or no10 to fail.  They are the key signings.  If we get them wrong, then I think opportunity to kick on becomes so much harder.

Back to you Silv.  I’m just gonna ignore Mebude’s loan, opportunistic and poorly sold.  So we signed 4:

- Bird

- Stokes

- Murphy

- Twine

plus TGH made perm.  4 out of those 5 were on the radar before LM signed.  So I think we have to wait to see who the no9 is before deciding whether the profiling has changed under LM or not.  I also think that Stokes and Murphy have more of BT’s influence than LM’s due to their age.  So we are really left with Bird, TGH and Twine as players to go through what I’d call the “first team recruitment process”.  Add to that the number 9, and any others we sign as others depart.  LM does make a strong play about physicality, runners, etc, so interested to see who comes in.  Good to hear Knight describe Bird yesterday too.

You can’t ignore Mebudes loan, there’s a 9 page thread on it

With the recruitment I’m kind of spitballing to a degree. I do think there is potential things could be more “difficult” in (any) change of manager for a recruitment team as they’re ripping up plan A - or at best tweaking it - and mastery takes time. But OTOH, it is literally their job. I do take the point of players on radar pre Liam though - ironically the two I think he would have had significant input in are ST and DM and I don’t think they can be classed as “hits”.

Bottom line for me is that if we come out of summer with Williams re-signed, Twine signed permanently & James gone in addition to the other known deals, then I don’t think we’ll have enough if it’s Tommy out and #9 + younger player in. Ideally I’d like to see us do better than Twine in that #10 and get a 9 to augment Tommy as opposed to replace.

Just now, ExiledAjax said:

@Silvio Dante and @Davefevs I think we'd also need to allow for failed transfers. Although we've maybe been a little better over the last few windows, generally I'd guess that at least 1 in 3 transfers are "failures" or don't succeed to the extent hoped. For every Dickie and Sykes there's a Mehmeti* or Mebude.

Therefore really, to give us a hope that two work out, I'd say we'd need net 3 incoming.

Unless of course Tinman has absolutely nailed this window already and the shortlist is absolutely infallible.

*he might have had a couple of good games recently, but this summer we need immediate success, not a season and a half of getting used to the idea of actually passing the ball every now and then.

You know I’m going to agree with you about Mehmeti!!

Very good point, and to slightly link to another thread, although I think recruitment has been much improved in recent years the January “in the building” business for that month (Twine. Medube, Murphy) was poor for various reasons.

A part of me wonders how much of that was due to having to recruit a different “profile” of player from under Pearson - we can talk all we like about club identity but Liam inherently wants - ideally - different players from Nige.

I wonder how much teething problems in recruitment arose from that, and it’s hopeful to assume that’s resolved in the summer - the chance of a “miss” increases with change in manager as it’s setting different exams for the recruitment team.

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Silv - I think the 9 and 10 come in regardless of whether Tommy leaves.  If Tommy leaves we may bring in another forward, but might be one more for the future (see my Max Dean thread).

So Twine goes back - we are one down.  The new no10 (might be Twine) comes in, numbers back up.

New no9 - an extra squad member

I think King goes - one down, but replaced by Bird, numbers back up

And I think we keep one of James or Williams, so one down, but with Knight moving deeper that accommodates the duo of Stokes and Murphy as squad options.

Of course if both go, then I think we will add a player, but I think that will take budget from elsewhere if it requires a fee, hence why I think we will try to retain one, likely Williams.

So, in LM’s eyes:

- the 9 improves us

- the 10 improves us (Twine or whoever)

- Bird improves us

Everything else is a reaction to who leaves if anyone.  I know it’s not as black and white as I paint it, but if those 3 players improve this squad / 2 players if you count Twine as already here, then I do think that can be enough of a difference-maker.  The margins ARE fine.

I don’t think LM thinks he’s getting 5-6 players on top of the scenario I set out above, nor is he getting oodles spent, but he he does exoect his squad for next season to have 2 to 3 (see above) players that improve the base he has now.

Hope that makes sense.

Where this changes is with the possibility that certain players leave, e.g. Conway, Naismith, Pring, etc, who might all have suitors for different reasons.

 

 

I don’t think we’re miles off in our reading - I think in practical terms Bird is a James as opposed to King replacement (as the latter isn’t really playing). I’d see Bird as a like for like there on which basis. So not necessarily a squad improvement from where we are now - get what you’re saying about Knight but he’s already here.

Twine/ the other 10 improves us “permanently” (debate whether that should be Twine elsewhere)

So for me from what is in the building today the key question is the Tommy one. If we bring in a 9 in addition to him it’s a definite squad enhancement. If we get a 9 and a “one for the future” it isn’t.

I’d find it hard to argue it’s three players up (plus Stokes etc) from what’s here. At most it looks like one. The key, as ever, will be what quality that new 10 and 9 are.

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Agree on both those figures for those two.

I'll just say that £15k is about the max we have been paying over the last couple of seasons. It's probably about what our top earners are on. We might stretch a bit towards £17k for someone really special, but more than that and I think we're at our limit.

So, if our limit is therefore players of the quality of Vyner, Knight, Twine - then it's about getting more of that standard in. Improve the depth of the squad and the breadth of the quality. 

Go from a strong first 15 to a strong first 17. It could be enough to just get us the 10 extra points we need (just 3 wins and 1 draw) to be in that playoff mix in 12 month's time.

Don’t disagree overall but I think what’s generally being pitched is a bit of a “like for like” - two major “ins” just equalises the two major “outs”. I’d also agree that we shouldn’t go outside the structure - one of the things Nige was always big on was that players should earn broadly similar. Ways and means around that (Signing on fee structure, bonus) mind.

So to go via your route I think it’s four players to account for the likely losses, and agree they can’t be ones for the future. The wildcard is Stokes who from reports might - just might - be akin to one of those major “ins”

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Good idea. 

I had to move because of the people sat behind us and the club were very hesitant to deal with them. The easy option was to just move us. 

You said you were in the Lansdown?

People behind you a bit annoying, knew very little about football and chatted shit constantly?

Wasn’t these guys was it?

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

I think two properly ambitious and quality signings would be enough. 

But, I don't think this is the summer to sign "ones for the future" (especially given we already have Stokes, Murphy, and Bird).

If there ever was a time to go a little harder and spend two lots of £3m and £15k a week on some absolute class, it's now.

The irony there is that I’d envisage we’d have to pay a minimum of £3m for Twine and at least £15k a week, and whoever is buying Conway would expect to pay a minimum of £3m and £15k a week.

So, on those sums, it’s back to the squad being as it is broadly.

(Don’t disagree with the general thrust of argument but two quality signings that markedly improve us will be a bit more than that IMO)

4 minutes ago, One Team said:

Great post Pete. 

It’s with comments like this I am actually starting to warm a little to Manning, and at the very least have some sympathy.

If he can continue to carefully craft a “it’s not me it’s them” narrative (carefully as Nige did this very well to his downfall) then he will get fans on side. We all saw October/November for what it was after all, FBCs latest podcast confirming it. 

To your other point I understand it’s two signings at the moment. 

The broader question is that if it’s two signings whether that gives us enough to make a dent in the top six. If we assume we retain Williams but not James/King, and also assume we lose Conway, then we’re pretty much at a zero sum game (Bird for James, new 10 for Twine or Twine, new 9 for Conway).

Yes, we then have SPH and Stokes as young players to augment the squad but there aren’t any others obviously coming through.

As Bird for James can be argued as like for like, Twine for Twine is obviously like for like and the new 9 for Conway is going to be like for like broadly, then the question really is - are the current squad (as it’s not going to be markedly improved) good enough to give us what we want, and sub question, how does that play to the “his players” narrative

(For avoidance of doubt if Liam gets success without “his players” but adjusting to the squad he has then it takes away a major concern).

10 minutes ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Tommy Conway is nowhere near ready for a step up (and not sure he ever will be) and would be better off staying here at the moment.

Not sure we have seen enough of Twine to really judge him, but clearly not worth a seven figure transfer fee, at least yet.

Medube is a strange one.  Nobody really knows what has been going on with him, do they, though we have speculated 

If I had to lay odds on it I’d think that the only one who may be here next season is Twine, but I agree with your analysis of him in terms of value - the only thing I’d disagree on is in terms of pure scouting, if you’d seen someone seven times, then you’d be expected to make a call - no reason why that should change for someone we have on loan.

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Will be interesting to see, with Saturday being the last home game, whether there are any sentimental team selections?  Could be James, King and Williams last time in front of the AG crowd???

And Conway and Twine and Medube.

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

I don't think there was a change in demeanour with results, but there seemed a definite change in attitude by Pearson. I found him a bit tetchy even adversarial at times to start, but he definitely relaxed as time went on , which is interesting in someone so experienced. I think he may even have mentioned relaxing himself. 

Manning is different , this is his biggest job and he's still relatively young and inexperienced . I don't enjoy them ATM , I find them quite dull and repetitive , TBH that could be the same for any Presser . That's why I appreciate your bullet point posts. 
With luck and time he will relax and they will become better, even enjoyable. But trying to come up with new things to say , new phrases etc is almost impossible , but it's the information that is key . 

My take on Nige is that although he had an idea he was walking into a shitshow, he didn’t quite understand how bad it was. When he got here and found that out there was a degree of “WTF have I gotten into?”. I agree he then broadly relaxed into it and I think that was because he saw the trajectory was improving and he was happier with what he had. In short it was someone who enjoyed the job more the greater chance he had to shape it.

Thats always been the contrast with Liam - again, done to death but he didn’t  walk into a shitshow playing squad wise and he probably put himself under a bit of unnecessary pressure due to the reasons you outline. Hopefully he’s over that now.

44 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

What were they supposed to say when bringing him in? We are bringing in an average player to see if he's any good. It's likely because ultimately he arrived Tins and his staff were bullish about him because they thought he was good. It hasn't worked we'll send him back.

You can't selectively look at recruitment. It has to be looked at as a whole. I think we've brought in better players in areas we were lacking (not all areas) whilst keeping fees low. Those players are all fairly young too and will improve. Asides from Dickie who's been a revelation and is only coming into his prime. This has been one of our best value transfer windows since Cotts I would argue.

To be fair, you’re using windows as a plural - and I agreed if you go back to the summer the recruitment was good. There was a thread a few weeks ago on hits/misses/jury out and at that point for me the jury was out on McCrorie, Roberts and to an extent TGH. Jury in on the second of those now, and I agree, a good summer window.

But if you take window in the singular as in January then it can’t be viewed as good at present. A lot will depend on how good Bird and Stokes are but for various reasons the three arrivals haven’t worked out. I’m not sure that’s in any way a controversial take.

As in what they’re supposed to say, there would have been absolutely nothing wrong in saying “It hasn’t worked out for him in Belgium but we’re going to take a look”. They chose to fabricate a story about work permits. And to be clear, lying in football happens (it happened yesterday re saying we haven’t had discussions re OOC, it happens when we say someone isn’t fit). This wasn’t one of those. It was a totally fabricated story to cover they got it wrong, and it was easily disproven. The lying then continued with Murphy’s mystical pre season.

As we stand, the January window worked out poorly. It happens. But head in the sand over it and accepting whatever bullshit people say is never a good move.

16 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

I really don't understand all the conversations re Mebude. He has come in as a loan player with an option to buy. Likely because we thought he would strengthen us where needed but needed to show us he could before spending money on him. We've clearly taken a look and not interested for whatever reason. Seems sensible to me considering we've not bought him. The rest of our recruitment has been pretty bang on this season.

 

It’s been done to death but the main problem was in how the deal was presented. Tinnion was very bullish over him, and DM was given the whole big signing video. It was positioned as one for the first team that we’d been scouting for a while and a bit of a coup. Had it been positioned as coming over (effectively) for a trial then it’d have been viewed a lot differently.

The club then made things a lot worse by bullshitting over his work permit situation in Belgium - both Liam and Brian very guilty of that.

The bottom line is we’re not signing him (or we certainly shouldn’t) and the way the deal was presented through to how he’s been plonked on the bench with no chance of getting on (assumedly due to a “matchday clause” in the deal) has been bizarre from start to finish.

If anything, it’s a lesson to the club in communication.

As for recruitment I broadly agree if we’re going back to start of season. However, and having liked the Jan window to start with, the three signings who arrived here then can’t be classed as anything but poor on aggregate (Bird and Stokes I maintain good business to get done early but clearly can’t comment on their ability)

Medube - A load of bullshit about work permits, an abysmal 30 minutes, no sign of touching the pitch

Murphy - Seems to have a chronic injury, probably pointing to why we passed in the summer

Twine - Largely indifferent

With the benefit of hindsight it looks pretty poor. The get out here is that we can send two of them back and one is likely to have not been expensive and we can claim on insurance if he’s totally unable to play (hopefully!)

5 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

@Silvio Dante did you do these for all of Nige's pressers? I can't recall. 

Nope. Can’t recall the first one of Liams I did but as @1960maaan said, it seems to be appreciated so I’ll keep doing them if I have time.

Its been interesting both because you can see that a change in demeanour leads to better answers (I don’t think there was a Pearson change in demeanour against results that was as clear) and because Piercys bit is always good value (I tend to want the RB bit to be done so I can get to him). 
 

Title of thread is pretty clear so if it’s not something people are interested in they can always skip past

31 minutes ago, eardun said:

And possibly also linked to Twine - he wants him. 

And tbh that kind of worries me. I’ve not seen enough in Twine over his games to date that he’s a worthwhile signing. I don’t concur that he’s “unlocked” Knight - his movement isn’t great, he’s not drifting into spaces, he’s just “there” - no more than any other AM (or even AM) would be. A presser like today was Liam giving “come here” vibes to Twine and Burnley will have picked up on that and negotiate accordingly - and I’m not sure Scott is worth what they will want.

And again, in terms of results, correlation doesn’t equal causation. Scott has shown a real lack of desire at times and has also tended to be - in short - a bit of a whiner. He gets fouls but it’s not a “Scott” in drawing fouls - it’s going to ground easy, getting some, and not getting others and being affronted by it.

I said when we signed Twine that the best case may have been an underwhelming loan spell which kept the price down. We’ve got that. But we’ve also got a head coach making “**** me” eyes at him which pushes the price back up. Worst of all worlds.

32 minutes ago, phantom said:

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion and let's be honest this forum would be dull if we didn't, but surely you must be seeing things differently now? 

I’d hazard a guess it’s how it’s cached.

Take the sentence “I didn’t explain myself probably as well as I could, I want players to be emotional” and contrast it with what was said of “People don’t listen properly”

The fact is that he did say what @Superjacksays he did in the manner he did. The way he’s cached it - when he could have made the point so much better - is a bit “I was always right and you were wrong”. 
 

I thought it was a decent presser overall, and again, I’ve made the point before when he said emotion that he didn’t really mean that and had explained himself poorly. But a flag that remains is “are we changing to save his job and he’ll revert to type”. Comments of this nature add, understandably, to that concern.

Just now, Davefevs said:

I heard it as he picked up back “issue” at the weekend, and this was a “test” that he was ok???

Haha, must be aimed at the players and the press, because he doesn’t read social media.

+++++

2+2=4 we are gonna try everything to sign Twine!

JKL - yeah it was. He was carrying a knock as opposed to got a knock.

Twine - yes we are, that’s my reading. I wouldn’t based on evidence to date and I’ve not seen great signs of a Palmer-Afobe type link between Twine and Conway (neither of whom may be here next season). I think he likes the player and he’s reading correlation and not causation.

As for the people not understanding - no comment!

1 minute ago, mozo said:

In all seriousness, I'm interested to know how he knows that there's that preconception of him. Someone obviously told him. I'm sure Nige use to reference things that the fans thought too. How do they know?

Ummm….its a public forum where you don’t need a membership to view? 
 

I know Liams denied being on social media before but I’ll be damned sure that the club (and we’ve seen posters here from the club) are tasked with trawling social media to gauge the fanbase - that’s not a bad thing, it’s sensible management. It follows that they’d then brief the manager/head coach.

This isn’t the masons.

I visited Solihull Moors as part of my boys “groundhopping” earlier this year pre West Brom. It’s pretty much right next to the NEC as a ground - closest ground is St Andrews so I’d guess Brum would be rivals (particularly as there may only be one division between them next year!)

2 minutes ago, phantom said:

On the point about contract discussions, it seems a common theme when other Managers and players are asked they usually say it's not discussed until the end of the season so no reason to disbelief what he said 

I think it’s a case of a collective fib. From both sides perspective, once the division they are in is known (or even highly likely) then there is no reason for as a minimum representatives not to talk. In practical terms discussions start a long way before that.
 

Anything else is naive. Why would the head coach and TD have:

- Identified the players they want (confirmed ongoing)

- Planned pre season in intense detail (confirmed)

…but not spoken to members of the squad to determine if they’re going to (or likely to) stay and how that wage impacts the budget. The point fundamentally feeds the recruitment strategy and leaving it until 5th May wastes a lot of time where replanning/rebasing will be needed thereafter.

It’s a dance. We know he’s fibbing. He knows we know he’s fibbing. 

Antoine Semenyo scoring for Bournemouth at Wolves too.

(Mods - Please move to ex players forum  )