International Cricket

[Lew-T]

5 hours ago, Lrrr said:

If its a spinner I think it'll be Jacks, Moeen can't hold up an end like Leach is used for so would say that rules him out of a possible return.

Either that or 4th seamer and Root filling in patches

Would agree with that in his early days, but he’s much more accomplished now I think. He’s got so much experience, it will be fantastic to have him in.

I also think the Australians will be more fearful of Moeen Ali with the bat and ball, than Will Jacks imo. He’s a big name in the game…

[Lrrr]

31 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Would agree with that in his early days, but he’s much more accomplished now I think. He’s got so much experience, it will be fantastic to have him in.

I also think the Australians will be more fearful of Moeen Ali with the bat and ball, than Will Jacks imo. He’s a big name in the game…

Moeen still bowls a full toss every half dozen overs or so and Moeen at test level with the bat wasn't to be feared any more, below is his last 39 innings in which he had 3 50's, 8 ducks and 17 single digit scores, almost as many single digit scores as reaching double figures. So no I don't think Mo with the bat would make Australia afraid of him even with our new style of play. I think someone fresh(er) to the team and hungry whose not just going to go into retirement again at the end of the series would be of more concern to them.

       Runs.     Mins.   Balls.  4's    6's     SR

Edited June 5, 2023 by Lrrr

[Lew-T]

13 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Moeen still bowls a full toss every half dozen overs or so and Moeen at test level with the bat wasn't to be feared any more, below is his last 39 innings in which he had 3 50's, 8 ducks and 17 single digit scores, almost as many single digit scores as reaching double figures. So no I don't think Mo with the bat would make Australia afraid of him even with our new style of play. I think someone fresh(er) to the team and hungry whose not just going to go into retirement again at the end of the series would be of more concern to them.

       Runs.     Mins.   Balls.  4's    6's     SR

Moeen Ali coming in at number 8/9 surely would put fear into any opposition. There’s no real pressure at that stage, and have him possibly batting with the tail would be a bonus. The chance of a quick fire 50-100 runs could be crucial…

I understand your point looking at those stats. But Mo is a gamble that I would take all day long.

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, Lew-T said:

Moeen Ali coming in at number 8/9 surely would put fear into any opposition. There’s no real pressure at that stage, and have him possibly batting with the tail would be a bonus. The chance of a quick fire 50-100 runs could be crucial…

I understand your point looking at those stats. But Mo is a gamble that I would take all day long.

It really wouldn't put any fear into anyone given he was coming out 7/8 before and often in situations of little pressure and still couldn't perform, he's turning 36 this month and has shown he has no interest in the red ball game otherwise, if anything I'd say its insulting to our other spinners that he could just waltz back in when they've put the shift in playing red ball or going on other tours with England. 

[Lew-T]

9 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

It really wouldn't put any fear into anyone given he was coming out 7/8 before and often in situations of little pressure and still couldn't perform, he's turning 36 this month and has shown he has no interest in the red ball game otherwise, if anything I'd say its insulting to our other spinners that he could just waltz back in when they've put the shift in playing red ball or going on other tours with England. 

Get your point on the second part of your post. It’s an awkward one, do you give the chance to Jacks or Ahmed in a massive series like this?

In hindsight it would have been ideal to give Jacks/Ahmed a run out against Ireland to give them more international test experience. 

[Lrrr]

43 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Get your point on the second part of your post. It’s an awkward one, do you give the chance to Jacks or Ahmed in a massive series like this?

In hindsight it would have been ideal to give Jacks/Ahmed a run out against Ireland to give them more international test experience. 

My main option would be 4 seamers with Root rotating in at times, would also give us a way to have a Wood/Tongue in the team adding some extra pace to the attack. If we're talking about an ability to hold up an end Leach's economy rate is 3.03, Ali's is 3.61 but Root's is 3.25, so having Root would actually be closer to replicating Leach then Ali. if we wanted to go down the spinner route because of surface I would then go for a Jacks/Ahmed/Parkinson etc, in that scenario would Ali want to come out of retirement for one or two games? I imagine he'd only consider it to feature in all 5, could you then imagine him performing badly and the discussion having to be do you drop him after coming out of retirement to then have to go to one of the players you originally overlooked? 

[And Its Smith]

Moeen is better at batting than Leach so any talk of his batting not being good is moot really.  The Aussies would go after Leach and they will go after Moeen.  I don’t see Moeen as any better or worse than Leach at dealing with that really.  Personally, I’d go with four seamer’s for the first test unless it looks like a bit of a turner and it’s not often I say that. 

[And Its Smith]

14 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

My main option would be 4 seamers with Root rotating in at times, would also give us a way to have a Wood/Tongue in the team adding some extra pace to the attack. If we're talking about an ability to hold up an end Leach's economy rate is 3.03, Ali's is 3.61 but Root's is 3.25, so having Root would actually be closer to replicating Leach then Ali. if we wanted to go down the spinner route because of surface I would then go for a Jacks/Ahmed/Parkinson etc, in that scenario would Ali want to come out of retirement for one or two games? I imagine he'd only consider it to feature in all 5, could you then imagine him performing badly and the discussion having to be do you drop him after coming out of retirement to then have to go to one of the players you originally overlooked? 

Parkinson can’t get into Lancashire’s team can he? Jacks not good enough for me.  Ahmed not yet good enough either.  If I had to pick one I’d be tempted by Liam Dawson. 

[Globe Trotter]

1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

Moeen is better at batting than Leach so any talk of his batting not being good is moot really.  The Aussies would go after Leach and they will go after Moeen.  I don’t see Moeen as any better or worse than Leach at dealing with that really.  Personally, I’d go with four seamer’s for the first test unless it looks like a bit of a turner and it’s not often I say that. 

Also under Stokes, economy rate is not a priority - he’ll set attacking fields to take wickets and support the spinner whoever that might be, as he’s done with Leach over the past year.
 

We’ve already moved a long way from trying to ‘slow the runs’ - this England team demands attacking cricket whether that’s bowling or batting and I love it. 

If Mo is up for it get him in I say 

[TonyTonyTony]

Ali has taken 195 test wickets and his batting skills are still obvious.

its a no brainer to ask him back. 

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, Globe Trotter said:

Also under Stokes, economy rate is not a priority - he’ll set attacking fields to take wickets and support the spinner whoever that might be, as he’s done with Leach over the past year.
 

We’ve already moved a long way from trying to ‘slow the runs’ - this England team demands attacking cricket whether that’s bowling or batting and I love it. 

If Mo is up for it get him in I say 

His whole thing with Leach is trusting that he won't get hit at 4/5 an over so that he can rotate the quicks, it allows England to play a 3 seam attack rather than needing a 4 seam attack

[Lrrr]

5 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Ali has taken 195 test wickets and his batting skills are still obvious.

its a no brainer to ask him back. 

Ali's batting skills flatter to deceive in international cricket, Woakes has a batting average 0.3 less than Ali does, for someone with the level of ability he showed earlier in his career he just didn't replicate often enough at test match level and my post above about his last 30/40 test match innings is evidence of that.

[Globe Trotter]

8 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

His whole thing with Leach is trusting that he won't get hit at 4/5 an over so that he can rotate the quicks, it allows England to play a 3 seam attack rather than needing a 4 seam attack

And the reason he doesn’t get hit for runs is he’s hugely improved his confidence under Stokes thanks to how he’s been handled - being thrown the ball and told to attack and take wickets which he has done. a by-product of that is that his economy rate is generally good 

[TonyTonyTony]

6 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Ali's batting skills flatter to deceive in international cricket, Woakes has a batting average 0.3 less than Ali does, for someone with the level of ability he showed earlier in his career he just didn't replicate often enough at test match level and my post above about his last 30/40 test match innings is evidence of that.

He is a better batsman than Jack Leach.

Any comments on his 195 test match wickets?

[Globe Trotter]

6 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Ali's batting skills flatter to deceive in international cricket, Woakes has a batting average 0.3 less than Ali does, for someone with the level of ability he showed earlier in his career he just didn't replicate often enough at test match level and my post above about his last 30/40 test match innings is evidence of that.

This England team is less concerned about batting averages and more interested in the impact individuals can have on the game. Stokes himself has a modest batting average  
 

Ali is, if he’s in the right frame of mind and up for it, someone who has exactly the right mentality and attitude (and skills) for this England side - batting or bowling 

[Lrrr]

19 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

He is a better batsman than Jack Leach.

Any comments on his 195 test match wickets?

Its like saying Cook has 12,000 test match runs, should we get him back to replace Crawley. Leach is there because we want Leach's ability with the ball Ali's not at the same level he used to be, he never plays red ball cricket anymore and at the back end of his last stint in test match cricket he didn't have the control to hold up an end, he bowls way to many full tosses and bad balls that allow the opposition to release the pressure.

20 minutes ago, Globe Trotter said:

And the reason he doesn’t get hit for runs is he’s hugely improved his confidence under Stokes thanks to how he’s been handled - being thrown the ball and told to attack and take wickets which he has done. a by-product of that is that his economy rate is generally good 

As said just above Ali doesn't have the control in his bowling required, he bowls too many full tosses/bad balls that release any pressure he builds, therefore meaning he can't hold down an end and meaning England can't rotate the seam bowlers as well, Ali would have to play in a 4 seam attack. Its not the total runs conceded as such its that he won't be able to stay on in one stint long enough to allow enough rest time for the seamers.

17 minutes ago, Globe Trotter said:

This England team is less concerned about batting averages and more interested in the impact individuals can have on the game. Stokes himself has a modest batting average  
 

Ali is, if he’s in the right frame of mind and up for it, someone who has exactly the right mentality and attitude (and skills) for this England side - batting or bowling 

If you want to talk about impact I posted this below a little bit earlier, in his last 39 innings he had almost as many single figure scores as getting to double figures, thats definitely not having a good impact

2 hours ago, Lrrr said:

Moeen still bowls a full toss every half dozen overs or so and Moeen at test level with the bat wasn't to be feared any more, below is his last 39 innings in which he had 3 50's, 8 ducks and 17 single digit scores, almost as many single digit scores as reaching double figures. So no I don't think Mo with the bat would make Australia afraid of him even with our new style of play. I think someone fresh(er) to the team and hungry whose not just going to go into retirement again at the end of the series would be of more concern to them.

       Runs.     Mins.   Balls.  4's    6's     SR

 

Taking his own words from his 2nd retirement in a year

Ali had announced his retirement from the format last year in September, citing the reason that he wasn’t “fully wholeheartedly into it”.

“I’ve had an honest chat with Baz (McCullum) and I can’t see myself being stuck in hotels for another month and playing to the best of my ability”, Moeen wrote in his column for the Daily Mail.

“Baz phoned me, we spoke at length and I said, ‘Sorry, I’m done. He understands, he knows the feeling. Test cricket is hard work. I’m 35 and something’s got to give”.

“I want to enjoy my cricket and it wouldn’t be fair to reverse my decision and then struggle to give it my all. It’s time to close the door on that side of my career. To play 64 tests for England has been a privilege and a dream fulfilled”, he added.

 

And yet now he's fully committed again? Knowing he'll just be retiring in another 5/6 weeks time again?

Edited June 5, 2023 by Lrrr

[Northern Red]

29 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Parkinson can’t get into Lancashire’s team can he? Jacks not good enough for me.  Ahmed not yet good enough either.  If I had to pick one I’d be tempted by Liam Dawson. 

Not in red ball cricket no, so much so that he's already been on loan at Durham this season in order to get game time. Think England have decided that he bowls it too slowly for international cricket.

The one at Lancs to keep an eye on is Tom Hartley. Not played that much red ball cricket until this season, but has become first choice spinner ahead of Parkinson and is also a very handy batsman lower down the order.

[TonyTonyTony]

12 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Its like saying Cook has 12,000 test match runs, should we get him back to replace Crawley. 

 Not a bad shout 

Losing Leach is a body blow no doubt, but bringing back a player active on the international scene, albeit in the short form game, that is the 3rd highest wicket taker for spinners in England is a no brainer. And he can bat. And is another leader on the field

Struggling to see how its bad???

Edited June 5, 2023 by TonyTonyTony

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, TonyTonyTony said:

 Not a bad shout 

Losing Leach is a body blow no doubt, but bringing back a player active on the international scene, albeit in the short form game, that is the 3rd highest wicket taker for spinners in England is a no brainer. And he can bat. And is another leader on the field

Struggling to see how its bad???

As said before, he's not the same player he used to be, based off his last run in test cricket even then he wasn't the same player, add another 2 years of not playing red ball cricket. Also turning 36 this month a point could have to be raised is he still at a level in the field or would we have to hide him a bit? 

[TonyTonyTony]

13 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

As said before, he's not the same player he used to be, based off his last run in test cricket even then he wasn't the same player, add another 2 years of not playing red ball cricket. Also turning 36 this month a point could have to be raised is he still at a level in the field or would we have to hide him a bit? 

On balance he is is clearly the best option. Hence why Ben Stokes spoke to him….

[And Its Smith]

Jacks hasn’t bowled this summer apparently so can’t see him getting a call up 

[PHILINFRANCE]

3 hours ago, Lew-T said:

Get your point on the second part of your post. It’s an awkward one, do you give the chance to Jacks or Ahmed in a massive series like this?

In hindsight it would have been ideal to give Jacks/Ahmed a run out against Ireland to give them more international test experience. 

Perhaps, but then, had Jack not played against Ireland, he might not have injured his back* and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

*I am, of course, assuming that Jack's back injury was caused during the last Test, 

[Super]

I'm unsure about Moeen. His bowling record against the Aussies is shocking although he can obviously bat. 

[Dolman_Stand]

Moeen added to the squad for the first two games, adds to the batting line up for sure and between him and Root hopefully can cover the spin bowling duties

Edited June 7, 2023 by Dolman_Stand

[Markthehorn]

Gone for the experience of someone who has played Ashes cricket rather than throw a younger player in ?

[1960maaan]

I think if it's any other series they would look at a genuine front line spinner, as it's the Ashes, well....
My first thought when Leach pulled up lame was Moeen . Adds massively to the batting and his bowling has come on plenty. 
Unless they want another pace bowler to cover where Stokes would have chipped in, I think he starts. That may have been why he took a day to consider, would it be worth the effort if he was just carrying drinks ?
I may be wrong, but that's how it looks to me. 

[Super]

Just watching the test final. India have bowled 23 overs in 2 hours!

[TonyTonyTony]

10 minutes ago, Super said:

Just watching the test final. India have bowled 23 overs in 2 hours!

I promised myself i wouldnt watch it. Either of them winning it is horrible. The Indians will be unbearable, and the Australians will be ungracious and unbearable.

Lets hope for rain 

EDIT: Rain day 4/5 

Edited June 7, 2023 by TonyTonyTony
Added forecast

[Lrrr]

9 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I promised myself i wouldnt watch it. Either of them winning it is horrible. The Indians will be unbearable, and the Australians will be ungracious and unbearable.

Lets hope for rain 

EDIT: Rain day 4/5 

There's a 6th day incase of a draw

[Lrrr]

I think England may well go down the 4 seamers route with Root as a spin option, Stokes not bowling would put too much on a 4 bowler attack including Moeen I think so I can see the first 2 tests being Anderson, Broad, Robinson and one of Wood/Tongue/Woakes, I definitely think Woakes will play at Lords as his record there is fantastic.