Concourse seating (lack of)

[Nibor]

No room for seats nor is there any need. 

[Blagdon red]

52 minutes ago, Tomarse said:

I note the SAG for Hull City for example publish all minutes of meetings.  Ours refuses to do so even via FOI requests. 

It is also now Sports Ground Safety Authority poilcy that SAGs should invite a supporter representative to sit on their committee. Despite our SAG having been reminded of this on several occasions, they have declined to take the SGSA's advice.

Just don't want to engage, do they!

[myol'man]

There are lots of concrete benches behind the Landsdown stand 

[Frenchay Red]

4 hours ago, Mkelly said:

 

There are a couple of solutions we are looking at with our fire risk assessors on leaner shelving which will help. 

Mark 

 

 

 

I know, make the leaner shelving a bit wider, a bit stronger and at thigh height.

Sorted.

[Redsi2]

In the area between the South stand and the Dolman there are some glass panelled rooms I believe sometimes say press but are never really used. Could this not be opened up as a seating area?

[Red DNA]

5 hours ago, Mkelly said:

We are unable to provide traditional seating areas with the concourses due to the following stipulation in the planning application:

Concourse's are both a means of escape and a first sterile area of safety should a stand have to evacuate.  No extra fire loading or obstruction can be introduced within these areas.

The bins are perceived as reasonable as they are a means to remove rubbish (itself a risk) 

The vendors trolley had to go be customised to be fully fire proofed.

I can assure you that if we could add seating areas and other aspects to the concourses we would.  Clearly after investing £40m +, there would be no aspiration to skimp on a small cost.

There are a couple of solutions we are looking at with our fire risk assessors on leaner shelving which will help. 

Mark 

 

 

 

The word 'traditional' in regards to seating is the problem. 

We're not asking for traditional seating, we're asking for 'jump' seats similar to what are provided for flight attendants on aircraft, fixed to a wall, hinged and spring loaded to return to an upright position when not in use. They could be provided in groups of 4 with the usual blue 'disabled' badge and protected from the main concourse by a rail / barrier to ensure the flow of people exiting the stadium is not restricted. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Blagdon red said:

It is also now Sports Ground Safety Authority poilcy that SAGs should invite a supporter representative to sit on their committee. Despite our SAG having been reminded of this on several occasions, they have declined to take the SGSA's advice.

Just don't want to engage, do they!

Really?

That's very bad. No legal requirements on them to do this I assume...?

Jumpseats- that's an interesting solution. My suspicion though is that SAG would again err on side of caution.

[Vincent Vega]

On 01/09/2017 at 07:25, Mkelly said:

The south stand, yes, that particular corner with less rows within the rake no.

This stuff isn't made up..

I stand at the rear of S25, fairly sure its the same rake as the rest of the stand.

[Blagdon red]

9 hours ago, Vincent Vega said:

I stand at the rear of S25, fairly sure its the same rake as the rest of the stand.

Nope. Like most modern stands, the rake in the SS is 'parabolic', i.e. it gets steeper the further back you go.

That doesn't, however, in my humble opinion, justify any different approach to tolerating or not tolerating standing on any particular row, as the angle of rake for any individual fan between his/her standing position and the nearest barrier (i.e. the seat in front of them - albeit at shin height) is ZERO DEGREES, whether in row A or row Z.

The whole rake argument when applied to standing in a seated area is a complete red herring. It is only relevant to a terrace. There you have several tiered steps that a spectator might stumble down before reaching the nearest barrier. The steepness of that slope is therefore clearly relevant to safety. There is NO SUCH SLOPE between a standing fan and next nearest barrier in the case of standing in areas of seating, no matter what row they are stood on.

 

 

[lenred]

On 01/09/2017 at 09:48, Tomarse said:

I think its this bunch of clowns known as the stadium advisory group who seem to have complete say over what we can or cannot do since the rebuild.  No seats, lights on during the game, no chip fyers etc.

They seem to not acknowledge they are 100 x overkill compared to over similar groups in the country. Personally its time fans and the club started fighting back.. its redic that we have to have lights on during a game after what.. 30-40 years of not having to do so and every other ground in the country not doing so either. 

My biggest bug bear. Is there an official reason for why the lights have to stay on? It's so bloody annoying. 

 

[Rich]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 10:25, Mr Popodopolous said:

I have noticed this- they seem to like it in secrecy.

I did a bit of casual research a while back and the last one which published some minutes on this was 2014, just before 2014-15 season.

@Tomarse @Rich I think they are overkill, I would agree on that in a number of areas.

For all that though, Mark Kelly is of course right. Absolutely right- this is all legit.

I'm sure Mark is correct in what he says, it might have helped had he replied to the original question, rather than waiting for the debate to air on the main forum. That's not getting away with the fact that there are people effectively excluded from those areas. I know there are special arrangements for people with disabilities but I can't help thinking that certain supporters with other needs, were not considered during the planning process, and still aren't.

The Dolman stand concourse is much bigger than the South Stand concourse, in proportion to the slight difference in capacity, yet, it only has one main exit, without going through to the South Stand concourse. There are dead areas which do not aid the flow of people to areas of safety/exit, these areas could be utilised for seating. The corner of the Dolman and South Stand is a pinch point for the free movement of supporters, yet it has a food outlet/bar located right at the narrowest point, this is close to where the glass fronted offices are, which also reduce that area. If there were such concerns for the welfare of patrons at planning stage and indeed now, why are these pinch points allowed. One can only assume the club wanted them included and that, they must have met the planning criteria, which throws up the question of, if that area is big enough to satisfy planning criteria, why not reduce the Dolman concourse and install a seating area. The same applies to the dead areas within the South and Lansdown concourses. There are also areas within those two concourses which have small shelves adjacent to the glass exteriors. Able bodied people sit on those shelves, and they're allowed to, why not put drop down seating in those recesses, where the less able could sit, obviously as they are recessed, they would not cause obstruction..

 

I'm sure we do have a problem with over enthusiastic enforcement by the safety advisory group. I remember a time when the Atyeo stand was being built, I could not believe the amount of gangways and exits the club had to put in, to satisfy our local planners. Liverpool had a stand at the opposite end to the Kop which had a capacity of about 8,000 (I believe ). It was about a quarter bigger than the Atyeo (4,000) yet they were allowed to enter and exit the stand by walking pitch side. The stand had straight gangways between each block, somewhat like the Dolman stand. I suppose, the planners were more lenient in Liverpool.

Shelving as Mark has indicated, would be helpful for people who have purchased drinks from the outlets. Let's make sure we help out those buying drinks, eh! He said cynically.

[Rich]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 10:41, Nibor said:

No room for seats nor is there any need. 

No need for response from someone who obviously knows jack shyte about, what everyone's needs are.

[Meh]

Concrete does burn - every substance on earth burns - at a certain temperature !!

Anyway, if the problem is seating within the concourse, is there anything stopping the club building  a room in the concourse - bottom corner of dolman for example -- therefore making this not part of the concourse and then putting tables and chairs in that? Just curious!!

[Rich]

6 minutes ago, Neo said:

Concrete does burn - every substance on earth burns - at a certain temperature !!

Anyway, if the problem is seating within the concourse, is there anything stopping the club building  a room in the concourse - bottom corner of dolman for example -- therefore making this not part of the concourse and then putting tables and chairs in that? Just curious!!

I doubt there'd need to be a room. Sectioned off areas with barriers to direct people to the exits without causing congestion, would do. After all, we have sectioned off areas where the queues are for the food and drink outlets, all be it removable, which would tie up around someone's ankles a treat, if there was a rush to escape.

[Pickle Rick]

So H & S is being used as a scapegoat by these SAG folk. 

H & S isn't the problem then. It would be fine to include benches or even a few double sided seats, much like what you see in airports etc. Doesn't have to be a lot and can be labelled specifically for the elderly or disabled.

It would be argued that it's actually discrimination and doesn't comply with equality and diversity.

It would be suitable and sufficient and wouldn't impact an evacuation beyond the means of what would be classed as reasonably practicable.

There's no clear means to prove otherwise, unless this SAG folk want to demonstrate and time an evacuation of a full stand with and without seating.

[Pezo]

From what I'm reading its not chairs that are required its tables.

I cant understand the need for chairs - there is a whole stadium with a designated seat just for you that you will be walking to at some point and its just waiting for you if you want to sit down. If you are having problems standing up then go and sit down.

If what your trying to do is balance a molten hot pie and coffee or cider while you try to organise yourself then what you really need is a table.

[Fiale]

12 hours ago, lenred said:

My biggest bug bear. Is there an official reason for why the lights have to stay on? It's so bloody annoying. 

 

Yeah that is really annoying. Night games Under the flood lights used to be magical, the pitch pipes out, rain, mist, the heat reveling played bodies all snowing up under the glare. But when you have stadium lights on it detracts, worse in the south stand for example the lights are spot lights aimed at the crowd. They are not blindingly bright but they do detect from the pitch. 

 

Other clubs seem to be able to turn out the lights, I am not sure why we cannot challenge some of the decisions. 

[Nibor]

11 hours ago, Rich said:

No need for response from someone who obviously knows jack shyte about, what everyone's needs are.

What a lot of silliness.  Putting in seats will inconvenience everyone as it will be far more crowded than it already is and it is too crowded now, and nobody needs them.  Those that can't stand for 15 minutes already have an alternative - sitting in their seats or using facilities for people with disabilities.  Your idea is rubbish.

[Rich]

5 hours ago, Nibor said:

What a lot of silliness.  Putting in seats will inconvenience everyone as it will be far more crowded than it already is and it is too crowded now, and nobody needs them.  Those that can't stand for 15 minutes already have an alternative - sitting in their seats or using facilities for people with disabilities.  Your idea is rubbish.

Do me a favour and read my first few posts. Without meaning to sound rude, you are ignorant. Ignorant of other peoples needs and the location and type of seating proposed, which, will not cause congestion. 

So imagine yourself less mobile than you currently are, having to go to a seat within the stand on your own, without having the opportunity to have a drink, because all of your other friends (if you have any ) or family members are in the concourse.

Go to the Dolman stand and see the spaces in the corners, along with the other areas I've referred to. Don't forget to use your imagination and consider that some of those in the areas which are too crowded already might just benefit from having a seat.

Your responses are ill thought out and without beating around the bush, selfish.

[Rich]

7 hours ago, Pezo said:

From what I'm reading its not chairs that are required its tables.

I cant understand the need for chairs - there is a whole stadium with a designated seat just for you that you will be walking to at some point and its just waiting for you if you want to sit down. If you are having problems standing up then go and sit down.

If what your trying to do is balance a molten hot pie and coffee or cider while you try to organise yourself then what you really need is a table.

Try having a drink with your family or friends when you're sat in the stand. This is about being able to enjoy the facilities within the concourse as everyone else can, when you have different needs than able bodied people.

There are the elderly, people with mobility problems and, even some people temporarily afflicted that would benefit from having a perch to rest themselves while enjoying the company of other members in their group. 

I really fear for those people that cannot hold a pie and hot drink, the poor souls, that must be awful when compared to the fun some people have walking with crutches or between two able bodied people for support.

[Pezo]

5 minutes ago, Rich said:

Try having a drink with your family or friends when you're sat in the stand. This is about being able to enjoy the facilities within the concourse as everyone else can, when you have different needs than able bodied people.

There are the elderly, people with mobility problems and, even some people temporarily afflicted that would benefit from having a perch to rest themselves while enjoying the company of other members in their group. 

I really fear for those people that cannot hold a pie and hot drink, the poor souls, that must be awful when compared to the fun some people have walking with crutches or between two able bodied people for support.

Sorry if I'm being a bit simple but what facilities? From my experience there are food kiosks and toilets and I assume your not talking about seats for the queues for these facilities.

Can you give an example because I feel like I'm missing the point, you mention crutches or support from able bodied people, as someone who has had to do this in the past it is clear to me that there are always going to be problems simply due to the number of people that are in the vicinity and no chair is going to help someone with the crowd. If someone cant support themselves at football then surely this is a day to day problem for them and they should probably be looking at a wheelchair or something to help.

Maybe I'm not considerate enough but like I say I feel like I'm missing the point.

[Rich]

4 minutes ago, Pezo said:

Sorry if I'm being a bit simple but what facilities? From my experience there are food kiosks and toilets and I assume your not talking about seats for the queues for these facilities.

Can you give an example because I feel like I'm missing the point, you mention crutches or support from able bodied people, as someone who has had to do this in the past it is clear to me that there are always going to be problems simply due to the number of people that are in the vicinity and no chair is going to help someone with the crowd. If someone cant support themselves at football then surely this is a day to day problem for them and they should probably be looking at a wheelchair or something to help.

Maybe I'm not considerate enough but like I say I feel like I'm missing the point.

People go to the ground with either friends or family, if they have either. They go to the concourse and purchase drinks or food and consume them within the company of their group. It is a sociable event enjoyed by many. Usually followed by a trip to the loo and watch a good match. 

My brother in law has learning difficulties and is sometimes unsteady on his feet, so it's best to have someone walk alongside him as a steadying influence. If he used a wheelchair, this would undermine his confidence further and he'd end up in a wheelchair all the time, something which we want to avoid. He loves his football but, his only option now, is on TV. We take him to the races and other events where there are crowds, he copes with those crowds as he has our support and there is seating available at those venues. Unfortunately, this is not the case at Ashton Gate. It would be nice to include him on occasions in the match day experience enjoyed by the majority.

[exAtyeoMax]

31 minutes ago, Rich said:

People go to the ground with either friends or family, if they have either. They go to the concourse and purchase drinks or food and consume them within the company of their group. It is a sociable event enjoyed by many. Usually followed by a trip to the loo and watch a good match. 

My brother in law has learning difficulties and is sometimes unsteady on his feet, so it's best to have someone walk alongside him as a steadying influence. If he used a wheelchair, this would undermine his confidence further and he'd end up in a wheelchair all the time, something which we want to avoid. He loves his football but, his only option now, is on TV. We take him to the races and other events where there are crowds, he copes with those crowds as he has our support and there is seating available at those venues. Unfortunately, this is not the case at Ashton Gate. It would be nice to include him on occasions in the match day experience enjoyed by the majority.

I totally understand where you are coming from. A simple bench around the perimeter walls would make it much easier for people to converse pre-match and at half-time, without feeling left out. Simple seating would help groups of friends/families with wheelchairs, and small children too. I hope a solution can be found as I would like your brother-in-law to be able to enjoy the whole match day experience as much as anyone else. 

[Pezo]

38 minutes ago, Rich said:

People go to the ground with either friends or family, if they have either. They go to the concourse and purchase drinks or food and consume them within the company of their group. It is a sociable event enjoyed by many. Usually followed by a trip to the loo and watch a good match. 

My brother in law has learning difficulties and is sometimes unsteady on his feet, so it's best to have someone walk alongside him as a steadying influence. If he used a wheelchair, this would undermine his confidence further and he'd end up in a wheelchair all the time, something which we want to avoid. He loves his football but, his only option now, is on TV. We take him to the races and other events where there are crowds, he copes with those crowds as he has our support and there is seating available at those venues. Unfortunately, this is not the case at Ashton Gate. It would be nice to include him on occasions in the match day experience enjoyed by the majority.

Thanks, I understand your issue much better now (and I probably should have been able to do this without your excellent explanation), it shouldn't be beyond the wit of the club to be able to help you without making a big deal of it and trying to make you seem special which seems to be what your trying to achieve. I guess the only thing that strikes me as a hole in your comparison to other event is you are able to watch those events while being social (i.e. drinking, eating, chatting - generally having a laugh) whereas obviously at football were not allowed to drink in view of the pitch, its difficult to get seats together and chatting is difficult in rows - so I can understand the use of the concourse.

Have you tried going to the rugby? Just out of curiosity the issues I highlight above shouldn't be such a big issue at the rugby and I was wondering if you had experienced them?  To be clear I'm not recommending you go to the rugby instead of football just wondering if you have what the experience was like and was it different.

[Nibor]

2 hours ago, Rich said:

Do me a favour and read my first few posts. Without meaning to sound rude, you are ignorant. Ignorant of other peoples needs and the location and type of seating proposed, which, will not cause congestion. 

So imagine yourself less mobile than you currently are, having to go to a seat within the stand on your own, without having the opportunity to have a drink, because all of your other friends (if you have any ) or family members are in the concourse.

Go to the Dolman stand and see the spaces in the corners, along with the other areas I've referred to. Don't forget to use your imagination and consider that some of those in the areas which are too crowded already might just benefit from having a seat.

Your responses are ill thought out and without beating around the bush, selfish.

I have read your posts. There's nothing selfish about recognising that there's no room and your wish is impractical. Right now it's dangerously crowded and adding seating makes either the same number of people take up more space or encourages more in. Missing out on 15 minutes of annoying mayhem at half time is hardly a big deal and whinging about it and accusing the club of penny pinching in the face of a £40m spend and the irrefutable fact of the crowding is churlish idiocy. 

[Rich]

49 minutes ago, Pezo said:

Thanks, I understand your issue much better now (and I probably should have been able to do this without your excellent explanation), it shouldn't be beyond the wit of the club to be able to help you without making a big deal of it and trying to make you seem special which seems to be what your trying to achieve. I guess the only thing that strikes me as a hole in your comparison to other event is you are able to watch those events while being social (i.e. drinking, eating, chatting - generally having a laugh) whereas obviously at football were not allowed to drink in view of the pitch, its difficult to get seats together and chatting is difficult in rows - so I can understand the use of the concourse.

Have you tried going to the rugby? Just out of curiosity the issues I highlight above shouldn't be such a big issue at the rugby and I was wondering if you had experienced them?  To be clear I'm not recommending you go to the rugby instead of football just wondering if you have what the experience was like and was it different.

No not been to the rugby since I was about thirteen. It holds little appeal us. Obviously the rugger fellows are allowed to take their food and drinks into the stadium and socialise there, us footy plebs are deemed second class citizens in comparison.

[RedM]

The rugby today had their inflatable pitch bouncy thing in a corner of the concourse as usual, (between the SS and the Dolman) they sometimes have tables with flags, face paints on too. We don't have these for the football so can that area have a few removeable chairs available @Mkelly ?

They could be kept just inside that area, maybe roped off like the queuing lanes perhaps so people don't remove them? This can be a temporary arrangement, maybe just a few stacks of plastic chairs people can restack when they have finished with them. If it gets abused the trial ends. It can be self policed without too much staff involvement. Maybe the Fans Liason Officer can get involved, not Adam as he is busy on match day  but Rachel? This way the concourse can be used for the rugby inflatable or other events quite easily. The area isn't in an area where people would be walking though in the first instance of a means of escape, and it must be ok health and safety wise or the rugby inflatable wouldn't be allowed. 

Thoughts? 

[Rich]

30 minutes ago, Nibor said:

I have read your posts. There's nothing selfish about recognising that there's no room and your wish is impractical. Right now it's dangerously crowded and adding seating makes either the same number of people take up more space or encourages more in. Missing out on 15 minutes of annoying mayhem at half time is hardly a big deal and whinging about it and accusing the club of penny pinching in the face of a £40m spend and the irrefutable fact of the crowding is churlish idiocy. 

As I have said, you just do not understand the issue and you obviously have not read or digested what I have said, or you are too pious and obnoxious to even try to understand, probably a mix of all four. Firstly who has ever mentioned half time? 

Are you serious? you claim that our new stadium facilities are "dangerously" crowded. Wow! what are we going to do if we ever reach capacity? Perhaps some of that major investment, should have been spent reducing that risk by say, not having bars at pinch points and not putting offices and shops into such a restricted stadium. You are as one might say, talking out of your arse. And you accuse me of idiocy.

We as a group, would like to go to the match at an hour before kick off time, with the intention of getting my brother in law to his seat about twenty minutes before kick off, plenty of time to enjoy a drink and social event prior to the rush and the match. On one occasion we did this but had to take him into the stadium to afford him some comfort, as he couldn't stand for too long. We then had to bring him back down for a toilet break prior to going in for the match. This could have been so much easier at the earlier times when there are fewer people and he would have used the loo before going in, easy.

As for the seating you have not understood what seating I refer to, as it would not cause congestion and especially in the locations stated. Obviously you have a problem reading, probably a sight issue, as you also can't see the areas I refer to either. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though and assume you only go to the football at times when it's really busy, which would affect you vision.

 

[Rich]

6 minutes ago, RedM said:

The rugby today had their inflatable pitch bouncy thing in a corner of the concourse as usual, (between the SS and the Dolman) they sometimes have tables with flags, face paints on too. We don't have these for the football so can that area have a few removeable chairs available @Mkelly ?

They could be kept just inside that area, maybe roped off like the queuing lanes perhaps so people don't remove them? This can be a temporary arrangement, maybe just a few stacks of plastic chairs people can restack when they have finished with them. If it gets abused the trial ends. It can be self policed without too much staff involvement. Maybe the Fans Liason Officer can get involved, not Adam as he is busy on match day  but Rachel? This way the concourse can be used for the rugby inflatable or other events quite easily. The area isn't in an area where people would be walking though in the first instance of a means of escape, and it must be ok health and safety wise or the rugby inflatable wouldn't be allowed. 

Thoughts? 

As many people thought, down to interpretation of the laws. Obviously the numbers are less but, same principal.

[RedM]

6 minutes ago, Rich said:

As many people thought, down to interpretation of the laws. Obviously the numbers are less but, same principal.

Yes I agree that there are less people attending rugby on the whole, but last season they had some respectable crowds and they could still use the area I have mentioned.