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The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)


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Posted (edited)
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Just hope now that people get behind mel and the team now, I get mel has not done every thing correct and mistakes have been made but this really feels like a fresh start now.the man has done wonders for this club and continues to show his class and put Derby first.we now have the right manager and team of people you will start to see derbys stock rise.to all the journalists, ex footballs, chairmen, pundits,EFL and many more who have jumped on the bang wagon and tryed to put us down f@#$ you.we are Derby super Derby super rams.

😂

Quote

If the EFL appeal, sue them.

If they don’t, let it go. We’ve won - on the inside circles the EFL have come out as incompetent, that’s a big win for Mel as well.

Time to focus on the footy only.

Erm, interesting interpretation of the Arbitration agreement right there!

In some ways yes, and yes the EFL under the old regime very much incompetent. However clubs hate you I reckon- opposing fans have a certain antipathy. Or vice versa.

There is still the question of the following with respect to Derby:

  1. Stephen Pearce- EFL Board, how can he be fit and proper now? I know innocent but all of the many issues.
  2. The loan arrangement.
  3. Keogh- I do hope he will pursue his case against the club to the fullest extent possible.
  4. The nonsense over Lawrence and Bennett being kept on- but Keogh sacked. How they got off so lightly with drink driving and crash is also beyond me, criminally speaking!

Oh they play Luton and Blackburn in Match days 2 and 3- and Barrow in the Cup, Sheffield United in a friendly in a week.

Hope there's no dodgy tackles! :laughcont:

To my Derby audience, I know a few of you have read my posts on and therefore, certain bits are for your benefit. :sub:

Still there are worse motivational techniques a manager might use. Nothing to lose certainly, to help an opposition side 'get into them' so to speak.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Posted (edited)

Am half tempted to join the Derby forum to meet my critics head on but probably not worth it.

However, I do hope that the EFL and other clubs keep an eye on Derby and keep pressure on over a variety of issues.

Legal action should lead to repercussions at a membership level. Or investigation into the possibility.

On another note, this thread by fans of a club I CAN respect. Sums up Derby quite nicely. 

http://barnsleyfc.org.uk/threads/derby-fans-and-club-a-disgrace.283815/

One of the first games post drink driving trio etc.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Posted (edited)

Would be interested in @Coppello take

Derby innocent in all but notifying the EFL of the change in policy??

I want to now see clubs take matters into their own hands. Maximum pressure using all avenues possible on Derby, by clubs and hopefully via this as a vehicle, the EFL.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Posted (edited)

On a Reading note, interesting theory on their forum about Howe standing down as CEO.

Quote

So, random theory time.

Howe, in his capacity as EFL board member knows that the EFL has decided to "freeze" FFP this season given COVID i.e. last season's and this seasons accounts will not have any baring on FFP calculations as they accept that clubs are working with contracts signed under very different financial circumstances and a large number of clubs will miss the target due to decreased income - i.e. less matchday income etc.

Knowing this, he advised the owners. They make the decision that, as they have the money, it is now or never to push for the PL - Howe, whilst not completely disagreeing, he doesn't feel like he can stay in the CEO role whilst the club takes this gamble, due to his EFL board seat (potential conflict of interest) so agrees to step down but remain at the club as Vice-Chairman, so that he (and the club) retain that spot on the board but focus, officially, on non-football club interests.

The owners employ one of their guys as a CEO but he is essentially just a man in a seat - the owners (with support from Howe, one of the reasons he stayed at the club) still run the football business side alongside Bowen - who is widely respected by the owners.

As the club hope to push for promotion, they feel they need a "name" manager to attract players who can make that possible - they have approached and are in discussions with a particular manager and an agreement is reached - Bowen is asked to move back upstairs as the club are impressed with the work he has done to reshape the philosophy of the club and want him to continue that work without the distraction of running the first team. His move will only be announced when the new manager can also be announced.


So yeah, probably all complete bollocks but if there really is a "strategic review" in place then given that Howe hasn't left this would fit. Either way, nowt we can do about it and more important things to worry about.

Long wondered about whether Howe has been leaking info from EFL to club, or perhaps favoured journalists. The odd article made me wonder- like when a local Reading journo a number of weeks, maybe a month ago declared that FFP was suspended in 2020/21! Get him and Pearce off the EFL board tbh. The latter especially.

As for this Derby debacle- was thinking about it and it's brutal. However.

For the benefit of my Derby audience .:sub: Some might say it needs a big club to go pop to get the message home about FFP and the importance. Given you're taking loans here, there and everywhere and somehow wriggled off you could be an ideal candidate! 

Aston Villa could have been the one really in 2018.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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There is nothing wrong with the loans from Rams Investment Limited (Gabay) and MCD (Dell), they are both third parties.  The amounts, unless converted into equity, cannot be used for FFP purposes. 

Having lent all that cash the lenders have security with the charges over all the assets of the companies, that is not unusual, and no different from the arrangements for a house mortgage.

It continues to look like Morris has had enough though, he is no longer funding the club.

As to the disciplinary panel decision best to await a copy of the decision and the outcome of any appeal before commenting.

A quick look at the accounts for 2018 show that the position is still dire.  At 30 June 2018 the football club lost £26 million before the stadium transfer, and there is no indication that matters have improved in 2019 and 2020.  They also had £50 million of intangible assets on the balance sheet, those will need to dealt with through the Profit and Loss account at some point in time.

So let's say £25 million a year loss for 2018, 2019 and 2020, so £75 million, less the profit on disposal, gives you £35 million.  Disposals of players will not benefit the club to the same amount as others for the reasons already stated.

 

Edited by Hxj
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

@Mr Popodopolous you seemed a lot more reasonable in your views up until yesterday. It may also upset you now Villa will almost certainly avoid punishment when they drop down. Your anger should be directed at those at the EFL who are responsible for this mess.

Some of my points were aimed at clowns on Dcfcfans, once I knew I was being cited.  :sub:

Choosing to cite a few of my posts, so may as well give them something to cite! 

On a more serious note, think the verdict is a bit of a travesty tbh and given the amount of controversy your club appears to create, Pearce should be removed from the EFL Board and replaced by someone more suitable. Norwich CEO perhaps, or I dunno Luton? Pick a club that aren't already on there but are less offensive! 

I also believe that if Derby take legal action against the EFL, then all avenues of action against your club should be explored.

Some of those characters on Dcfcfans should read and interpret (if they can) the section of Arbitration on the EFL website.

Terms of Membership include an 'Agreement in writing to Arbitrate'. Happy to double check tbh. Idiots on there appear not to mention it at all.

I still wonder about Aston Villa on two counts. Firstly each case differs and the verdicts seem less than predictable- talking about all Disciplinary not just FFP. See also Bolton and Macclesfield for non-fulfilment of fixtures.

Secondly, the payment terms for Villa Park took the form of Loans Receivable. Balance sheet item, not even the money in cash flow so I wonder from a P&L POV.

Final point, I hope that the EFL appeal.

Feel a great deal of anger towards a minority of clubs especially persistent and flagrant offenders. However a lot of blame should be attached to Shaun Harvey and his final couple of years in charge!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Posted (edited)

A point I still do stand by though is that a big club going under, this would get home the message about the importance of FFP. 

*Derby appear to be Loans R Us so again, price worth paying?

*Notably aimed at Clown in Chief Dopey David on their site. :sub:

Serious note however, big club going *pop* would lead to financial mismanagement of clubs being taken more seriously.

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Posted (edited)

I see conflicting reports that quite a few clubs are angry at the EFL for pursuing the case. Also reported that various clubs angry at the panel over the verdict.

As for my posts the other day, I see Luton are one of the angry clubs. Now they play Derby in a few weeks. 

I have read in the past that under Pulis, when Stoke played Arsenal he used to wind his players up pre game. Really wind them up possibly.

Didn't Jones play under Pulis- or have some kind of prior connection? Harness that knowledge with anger about this, the fact that Luton likely to be bottom third or scrapping against the drop. Let's face it they won't be able to outplay Derby.

Send them out, both to win and get into the players head with the FFP grievance. Could have a lovely physical approach if it aligns!

RandomAccessMemory on Dcfcfans.uk is clearly one eyed. Where does legal action arise given all clubs in writing agree to arbitrate. That said EFL would pay legal costs for this case surely.

I'd be thinking along the lines of:

"We cut our cloth accordingly. We strain to breakeven or make acceptable losses, easily funded but we're well within FFP. 

"This club. These tossers are the king of the loopholes. Rooney is paid for by a sponsor effectively! 

"FFP? What's that then! Sold a ground on a questionable basis. Amortisation of players also suspect, both of which artificially increase scope for expenditure. 

"We cut cloth, they cut rules. 

"We can't outplay them, but as well as club size they are artificially boosted by dubious means. 

Lads, get into them (and **** them up)!" (It's a terrace chant).

I'd properly rile and needle my side vs Derby pregame were my club legitimately within FFP.

I'd also add bits about suing the EFL being antisocial to the needs of the club and League as a whole. Luton won't outplay Derby but they could approach like Pulis era Stoke v Arsenal.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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2 hours ago, Hxj said:

There is nothing wrong with the loans from Rams Investment Limited (Gabay) and MCD (Dell), they are both third parties.  The amounts, unless converted into equity, cannot be used for FFP purposes. 

Having lent all that cash the lenders have security with the charges over all the assets of the companies, that is not unusual, and no different from the arrangements for a house mortgage.

It continues to look like Morris has had enough though, he is no longer funding the club.

As to the disciplinary panel decision best to await a copy of the decision and the outcome of any appeal before commenting.

A quick look at the accounts for 2018 show that the position is still dire.  At 30 June 2018 the football club lost £26 million before the stadium transfer, and there is no indication that matters have improved in 2019 and 2020.  They also had £50 million of intangible assets on the balance sheet, those will need to dealt with through the Profit and Loss account at some point in time.

So let's say £25 million a year loss for 2018, 2019 and 2020, so £75 million, less the profit on disposal, gives you £35 million.  Disposals of players will not benefit the club to the same amount as others for the reasons already stated.

 

Not sure how you've reached that conclusion. Since that period we've seen a drastic reduction in wages.

Out: Palmer (1/2 season loan), Winnall (1/2 season loan), Russell (1/2 season), Vydra, Weimann, Shackell, Hanson, Jerome, Baird, Ledley, Bent, Thomas, Nugent, Butterfield, Blackman, Pearce, Johnson, Bryson, Thorne, Carson, McAllister, Keogh, Olsson, Anya, Huddlestone, Martin
In: Waghorn, Marriott, Jozefzoon, Holmes, Malone, Evans, Bielik, Shinnie, Rooney, te Wierik, Marshall, Clarke (loan), academy lads

Even using conservative estimates for wages that's at least a £15m saving. Income (excluding impact of coronavirus) will have also increased in that time with a notable increase in sponsorship (thanks to Rooney/32Red), greater TV income (new TV deal with sky, a couple extra games on TV, and a big increase in RamsTV subscriptions), and general increases elsewhere.

The next two sets of accounts to be released won't be pretty - I wouldn't bet against c£25m losses in those years  (I estimated abour £24.8m and £27.2m) due to amortisation finally catching up with us from the 2015 and 2016 years. But, we're past that now and on very safe ground financially. From a P&S perspective this will be the toughest year with us just scraping the right side of the line. Thankfully, Mel's long term investment is starting to bear fruit - more minutes given to former academy players than any other club last season, and close to 75% of players used so far in pre-season having been involved in the academy process at some point (mostly youth level, a few U18 signings, and two U23 signings).

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@AnotherDerbyFan 

The consolidated accounts are or should be used for FFP. 

The consolidated accounts showed a £1m loss in 2017/18 even WITH the stadium sale, Rowett compensation, and profit on transfer disposal.

Clearly there are healthy adjustments out of these but remember those big losses stay on the books.

I don't think the EFL should especially adjust FFP for Covid either. Taking your figures as the ones, if FFP not adjusted for Covid you're walking the line somewhat until 2022/23.

No Covid allowances for clubs IMO. Or very few. Don't know clubs losses due to Covid tbh.

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Posted (edited)

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2020/08/derby-county-club-statement-26th-august-2020

Derby statement. 

Clubs must now act to remove Pearce from the EFL Board.

Morris should be treated as far as possible as a pariah.

They also appear to have unilaterally published the written reasons!?

Further, the fact that they ie their legal team and that Sheffield Wednesday appeared to work together, any rules against? 

@Davefevs you know a bit of law from memory, joint coordination on cases any thoughts?

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Posted (edited)

Calling one or two on their site pillocks a bit uncalled for though I consider 'Dopey David' not bad as far as nicknames go! :whistle:

Dopey David on DCFCFANS

"Sooner we can get out the Football League the better."

I quite agree. Suspension of membership or expulsion for as long as Morris remains would be great! See Dale at Bury as an example.

Gee Screamer!!, interestingly we are cited as a comparable in the report.

Land value in Bristol surely is worth more than in Derby. How Pride Park worth a lot more than Ashton Gate is puzzling.

Ellafella "Heads need to roll at the EFL". 

Quite agree. Stephen Pearce, will most clubs appreciate his ongoing presence?

Hi Dopey D. Sure you're reading. 

Opinion on auditor being Derby fan? Lot of interesting stuff out there on them. Might also add, Pulis sent out Stoke really wound up vs Arsenal especially so it's a legitimate tactic in football.

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2 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Not sure how you've reached that conclusion. 

From the same place as you I think 😉

 

2 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

The next two sets of accounts to be released won't be pretty - I wouldn't bet against c£25m losses in those years  (I estimated abour £24.8m and £27.2m) 

Your guess was £52 million mine is £50 million 🤣🤣🤣

Although we now know fromthe decision that the FFP figures for 2018 was a £7 million profit and predicted for 2019 a £34 million loss!

I can see points deductions for 2019/20 and 2020/21 with all those intangibles to deal with.

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11 minutes ago, Hxj said:

From the same place as you I think 😉

 

Your guess was £52 million mine is £50 million 🤣🤣🤣

Although we now know fromthe decision that the FFP figures for 2018 was a £7 million profit and predicted for 2019 a £34 million loss!

I can see points deductions for 2019/20 and 2020/21 with all those intangibles to deal with.

Without knowing the 18/19 amortisation it’s hard to make a judgement on the following years. I’m willing to bet the P&S total from 18/19 and 19/20 will be close to the £50m figure we previously estimated. I am a bit more concerned about how close we’ll be for the 3 years to 2021 though

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Calling one or two on their site pillocks a bit uncalled for though I consider 'Dopey David' not bad as far as nicknames go! :whistle:

Dopey David on DCFCFANS

"Sooner we can get out the Football League the better."

I quite agree. Suspension of membership or expulsion for as long as Morris remains would be great! See Dale at Bury as an example.

Gee Screamer!!, interestingly we are cited as a comparable in the report.

Land value in Bristol surely is worth more than in Derby. How Pride Park worth a lot more than Ashton Gate is puzzling.

Ellafella "Heads need to roll at the EFL". 

Quite agree. Stephen Pearce, will most clubs appreciate his ongoing presence?

Hi Dopey D. Sure you're reading. 

Opinion on auditor being Derby fan? Lot of interesting stuff out there on them. Might also add, Pulis sent out Stoke really wound up vs Arsenal especially so it's a legitimate tactic in football.

Grow up

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30 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Without knowing the 18/19 amortisation it’s hard to make a judgement on the following years. I’m willing to bet the P&S total from 18/19 and 19/20 will be close to the £50m figure we previously estimated. I am a bit more concerned about how close we’ll be for the 3 years to 2021 though

Grow up

Okay daft nicknames aside, I do think Pulisball a legitimate tactic. Read up on it, he did really rile his team up when at Stoke ahead of games vs Arsenal. There's an article on it online.

It is also worth reading up on your auditors. How can we be guaranteed of arms length impartiality?

I still have doubts about about the valuation and how the proposed annual rent fell from £4.16m to £1.1m. 

The profits method of valuation is debatable given that a lot of football stadia run at a loss. 

On the other hand the above could well be acceptable IF commercial revenue doesn't flow to the club. Or the rent or price should be restated- can't have it both ways.

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The report so far makes for interesting reading. Don't think EFL come out so well. 

Bit of a way to go on it. Certainly don't see good grounds for the one eyed jubilation on Dcfcfans.

In conclusion, I still consider Mel Morris to be a fairy entitled disreputable (albeit legal) *****. Appears to have a bit of a persecution complex too.

Stephen Pearce and good governance don't appear to go hand in hand. Get him off the EFL board. 

Derby are a scuzzy club throughout, and their fans have all the balance and grace of that King who lost his eye. However in the Kingdom of the blind, one eyed man is King!

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Okay daft nicknames aside, I do think Pulisball a legitimate tactic. Read up on it, he did really rile his team up when at Stoke ahead of games vs Arsenal. There's an article on it online.

It is also worth reading up on your auditors. How can we be guaranteed of arms length impartiality?

I still have doubts about about the valuation and how the proposed annual rent fell from £4.16m to £1.1m. 

The profits method of valuation is debatable given that a lot of football stadia run at a loss. 

On the other hand the above could well be acceptable IF commercial revenue doesn't flow to the club. Or the rent or price should be restated- can't have it both ways.

Profits method was used for obtaining a value for the sale, but DRC was used for P&S, later to be revised up to be equivalent to the profits method. The decision from the hearing, after consulting with the credible EFL valuer, was an acceptable DRC range of £77.4m to £89.5m (mid value of £83.5m). Kind of suggests the £81.1m figure was also acceptable 👌

£1.1m figure is based on 100 days of use a year, proportional to £4.16m. I’m surprised that’s been passed, but must mean reduced non-matchday income for the club as a result. 

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49 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The report so far makes for interesting reading. Don't think EFL come out so well. 

Bit of a way to go on it. Certainly don't see good grounds for the one eyed jubilation on Dcfcfans.

In conclusion, I still consider Mel Morris to be a fairy entitled disreputable (albeit legal) *****. Appears to have a bit of a persecution complex too.

Stephen Pearce and good governance don't appear to go hand in hand. Get him off the EFL board. 

Derby are a scuzzy club throughout, and their fans have all the balance and grace of that King who lost his eye. However in the Kingdom of the blind, one eyed man is King!

Charge 1 - Stadium
The independent panel reaches the conclusion of fair value. £81.1m falls inside their concluded fair value range of £74.4m to £89.5m. 

Charge 2 - Amortisation
Concluded that the policy wasn’t made clear in the accounts. Review of the policy actual revealed it is acceptable and meets the relevant accounting standards. 

The EFL don’t have a leg to stand on any appeal. Especially when you look at one of their key experts, Mr Messenger using stadiums such as Burton, Shrewsbury, Colchester, Chesterfield and Doncaster to draw accurate comparisons. He got mixed up between capacity, number of seats and square meters!

Edited by AnotherDerbyFan
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On 25/08/2020 at 17:16, Harry said:

As Pops mentions above, the loan is from a company called MSD, and supposedly to the tune of £30m. 
MSD have previously loaned money to Southampton & Sunderland. 
The loan has been charged on Companies House to the football club - but surely they can’t inject money to the football club secured against a stadium that the football club do not own. It’s like you lending me money and saying if I don’t pay you back you’ll take my neighbours house (not mine). 
 

In essence, if Morris doesn’t pay MSD back their £30m if they ask for it, then they’ll own the ground. Even though the club don’t own the ground any more!! 
 

It’s a bloody farce. The fact Derby’s CEO sits on the EFL board is surely a conflict of interest in this matter. 
 

I just can’t see how, within FFP rules, this £30m can form part of any calculations, as it’s not ‘football club’ income - it’s technically a loan to Morris himself (as he bought the stadium). 
 

There’s got to be some sort of investigation into this. 

Is it better than yours ?

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15 minutes ago, Harry said:

Nah. I just got a brand new paved drive too. Much better. 

hope that was in ffp and not one up manship? 😀

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Posted (edited)

Thought about it a bit, and I think the aspect I dislike most about Derby is Mel Morris.

A bowling/cue ball of an owner who thinks he's bigger than the game or at least the League in which his side play. Quite clearly a horrible man with a sense of entitlement.

In short, zero redeeming features.

Fair few gobshites on their forum but it all stems from him tbh, a fish rots from the head down after all.

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