Spine of squad ripped out - Part 2

[Fordy62]

It’s going to happen again isn’t it? Last year we lost Reid, Bryan & Flint. 

I think the reality is that this summer we’re more than likely going to lose one or more of the following:

Webster, Brownhill & O’Dowda. 

Add to that the loss of Kalas (almost certainly) and da Silva (maybe). 

Now obviously the club don’t have to sell (although they’ll probably have to sell O’Dowda), but the money in football nowadays is such that I suspect that a number of clubs will meet our valuations.

LJ certainly has a job on his hands this summer and I don’t envy him one bit... the only way out is probably promotion. Fingers crossed eh. 

[ZiderEyed]

Vyner/Moore/Kelly

Bakinson/Morrell

Adelakun/Edwards

Its not like we haven’t brought in young players with scope to develop and replace players like them.

fwiw I don’t think we’ll lose Webster or Brownhill mind

[Ivorguy]

That is exactly the point a number of us have been making about the SL plan.  Every August is starting with massive team changes with no guarantee that we will have upgraded or even replaced.

The loss of Kalas will be a great blow and if Webster goes too we start all over again with the defence.  DaSilva also likely to go back to Chelsea, who are now on a transfer ban. Coming back however is Vyner, giving us four right backs and one left back. Great.

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, ZiderEyed said:

Vyner/Moore/Kelly

Bakinson/Morrell

Adelakun/Edwards

Its not like we haven’t brought in young players with scope to develop and replace players like them.

fwiw I don’t think we’ll lose Webster or Brownhill mind

Ooh. Brave call. I hope we don’t. But I just can’t see Webster & Brownhill not being on bigger clubs radars. Webster especially. 

I also get that we’ve have the players you’ve mentioned above, however would you really have confidence that they’ll be as good as Webster & Brownhill? Time will tell I guess. 

[Red Army 75]

8 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Vyner/Moore/Kelly

Bakinson/Morrell

Adelakun/Edwards

Its not like we haven’t brought in young players with scope to develop and replace players like them.

fwiw I don’t think we’ll lose Webster or Brownhill mind

We would be ****** 

[E.J.Thribb]

6 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

That is exactly the point a number of us have been making about the SL plan.  Every August is starting with massive team changes with no guarantee that we will have upgraded or even replaced.

The loss of Kalas will be a great blow and if Webster goes too we start all over again with the defence.  DaSilva also likely to go back to Chelsea, who are now on a transfer ban. Coming back however is Vyner, giving us four right backs and one left back. Great.

Unlikely Webster will leave and if he does it'll be for a hefty wedge. More than enough to get a good quality replacement in. Vyner is a centre-back who can play right back btw. 

 

[Red Army 75]

12 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

It’s going to happen again isn’t it? Last year we lost Reid, Bryan & Flint. 

I think the reality is that this summer we’re more than likely going to lose one or more of the following:

Webster, Brownhill & O’Dowda. 

Add to that the loss of Kalas (almost certainly) and da Silva (maybe). 

Now obviously the club don’t have to sell (although they’ll probably have to sell O’Dowda), but the money in football nowadays is such that I suspect that a number of clubs will meet our valuations.

LJ certainly has a job on his hands this summer and I don’t envy him one bit... the only way out is probably promotion. Fingers crossed eh. 

It’s just a matter of time before LJs head is turned IMO . Very ambitious person 

[Vincent Vega]

12 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

It’s going to happen again isn’t it? Last year we lost Reid, Bryan & Flint. 

I think the reality is that this summer we’re more than likely going to lose one or more of the following:

Webster, Brownhill & O’Dowda. 

Add to that the loss of Kalas (almost certainly) and da Silva (maybe). 

Now obviously the club don’t have to sell (although they’ll probably have to sell O’Dowda), but the money in football nowadays is such that I suspect that a number of clubs will meet our valuations.

LJ certainly has a job on his hands this summer and I don’t envy him one bit... the only way out is probably promotion. Fingers crossed eh. 

Interesting to wonder how many games Brownhill would have got,had it not been for Smith's injury ?

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, Vincent Vega said:

Interesting to wonder how many games Brownhill would have got,had it not been for Smith's injury ?

I think LJ is a big JB fan. I think he would have found a way to accommodate him on the RHS if Smith were fit and he wanted both. 

[mozo]

17 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

It’s going to happen again isn’t it? Last year we lost Reid, Bryan & Flint. 

I think the reality is that this summer we’re more than likely going to lose one or more of the following:

Webster, Brownhill & O’Dowda. 

Add to that the loss of Kalas (almost certainly) and da Silva (maybe). 

Now obviously the club don’t have to sell (although they’ll probably have to sell O’Dowda), but the money in football nowadays is such that I suspect that a number of clubs will meet our valuations.

LJ certainly has a job on his hands this summer and I don’t envy him one bit... the only way out is probably promotion. Fingers crossed eh. 

If we get promoted, we're well-placed to keep them all.

If not, yeah you're right. I guess that's a reason to enjoy it while we can. 

[Carey 6]

7 minutes ago, Vincent Vega said:

Interesting to wonder how many games Brownhill would have got,had it not been for Smith's injury ?

Probably the same amount in the league. 

I think we'll be able to hold onto both him and Webster for one more season. 

Will be a shame to lose Kalas, but I feel that's inevitable. Dasilva I hope will sign for us permanently.

Also, I think we should offer another year to Maenpaa asap. 

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

If we get promoted, we're well-placed to keep them all.

If not, yeah you're right. I guess that's a reason to enjoy it while we can. 

Very simplistic. I like it!

[mozo]

1 minute ago, Fordy62 said:

Very simplistic. I like it!

Yep. Any more problems need solving?!

I'm concerned about this too to be honest and Kalas I definitely don't expect to see beyond this season so the recruitment team are no doubt working on that.

[old_eastender]

24 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

It’s going to happen again isn’t it? Last year we lost Reid, Bryan & Flint. 

I think the reality is that this summer we’re more than likely going to lose one or more of the following:

Webster, Brownhill & O’Dowda. 

Add to that the loss of Kalas (almost certainly) and da Silva (maybe). 

Now obviously the club don’t have to sell (although they’ll probably have to sell O’Dowda), but the money in football nowadays is such that I suspect that a number of clubs will meet our valuations.

LJ certainly has a job on his hands this summer and I don’t envy him one bit... the only way out is probably promotion. Fingers crossed eh. 

A bit premature for this speculation. As for Reid, Bryan & Flint lets not forget they were all regulars in the side that blew-up last season. I'd contend we have not missed Bryan with the emergence of Kelly and Da Silva, arguably both better defenders. LJ went on record to say he would not agree to release Flint without Webster joining being in the bag, IF Webster was wanted elsewhere you'd imagine LJ would want to ensure ready replacement again. 

The only one we will need to cash in in, if he does not sign up, is COD.

It's been stated that we have already got an agreed fee for Da Silva, and if we have any sense we will pay the asking price to keep Kalas (Fulham were quoted £6m last season - he would be worth every penny).

[Fat Cigar]

39 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

It’s going to happen again isn’t it? Last year we lost Reid, Bryan & Flint. 

I think the reality is that this summer we’re more than likely going to lose one or more of the following:

Webster, Brownhill & O’Dowda. 

Add to that the loss of Kalas (almost certainly) and da Silva (maybe). 

Now obviously the club don’t have to sell (although they’ll probably have to sell O’Dowda), but the money in football nowadays is such that I suspect that a number of clubs will meet our valuations.

LJ certainly has a job on his hands this summer and I don’t envy him one bit... the only way out is probably promotion. Fingers crossed eh. 

We won't. I share your concern, but am confident the only player who might go is O'Dowda. And if he does, it'll be for something stupid like £8m. And probably only to a promoted Championship side. 

I think we'll fight tooth and nail to keep Webster. For me, he's worth more than O'Dowda, although defenders rarely seem to attract the same sort of fees. I reckon Da Silva will sign for us. Kalas is a tricky one. No doubt we want him, but the issue will be: does he want to join, and are Chelsea going to quote hefty sums at us? If we sign him, it'll probably be for an initial £5m outlay, rising to something like £8m-£10. Webster was bought for £3.5m, potential rising to £8m, so it is possible.

Brownhill? He'd attract more than O'Dowda, and like the latter, would probably only go to a newly promoted Champ club or mediocre Prem side. And he'd go for nothing less than £10m.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not worried. Players come and go all the time. Only about a handful of clubs worldwide can afford to keep hold of their best, so it's part and parcel of football. Key thing is to be a bit phlegmatic about it all. Yes, it'd be a shame to lose X, but you know what, this is why you have an academy that you invest heavily in, nurture the best players from the lower leagues, and start over.

This is exactly why we are doing things the right way and not splashing out millions on average players. FFP means every club has to be sensible. And letting one or two good players go a season is part of the process.

[Mr Popodopolous]

As it goes, our FFP position is such and the big sales, reduced amortisation etc that we don't need to. Maybe O'Dowda at most, but we don't need to let go anyone we don't want to this summer- oif course fees or wages if we try to sign permanently Kalas and Palmer in addition to what we have now and we may have to sell to buy more, to trade- but in terms of absolute necessity to sell?

Not at all- not this summer. A summer of stability and retention of Kalas- and potentially Palmer though he hasn't yet shown enough- would work wonders IMO. I wanted one in summer 2018 but financial reality collided with team stability.

Because in addition to the big overhaul, Pisano will be out of contract. Vyner or Moore will perhaps replace. One of Fielding or Maenpaa will be off, we surely won't retain both because IIRC both contracts up in the summer. Saves on wages. Doesn't feel like a re-run of Summer 2018 to me- can't underestimate the savings that have been made.

In addition, if we wanted to trade we could sell one of Wright or Taylor and it would represent pure profit because of the renewal of contract or close to pure profit. Will work it all out later but it would represent either pure profit or sound profit and reduced amortisation depending on exact rules of renewal 6 months ahead of time.

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

That is exactly the point a number of us have been making about the SL plan.  Every August is starting with massive team changes with no guarantee that we will have upgraded or even replaced.

The loss of Kalas will be a great blow and if Webster goes too we start all over again with the defence.  DaSilva also likely to go back to Chelsea, who are now on a transfer ban. Coming back however is Vyner, giving us four right backs and one left back. Great.

SL plan?

Surely this is a potential problem for every club looking to develop a strong team and squad. You identify good players and either bring them in on transfer or develop them through your academy. If they develop and progress well, then there is always the danger that they will be poachedd by bigger clubs able to offer better financial terms or a higher standard of football.

I've mentioned this a number of times before, but I do think many assume that SL's plan , i.e. buying young players or developing our own through the academy, has the sole purpose of us then being able to see them on for a substantial profit and that is the end in itself. I just don't see that, but do see that the plan is a means to an end. When the plan was set in place, our relative financial position meant we could not compete with the financial big hitters in the division, and had been bitten previously when buying "experienced" players on big wages.

That we lost 3 key players last summer but are now in a stronger position at this point in the season than we were this time last season, speaks volumes.

Buying or developing young players is more affordable and it does mean that if we have to sell then there is a profit for the club. However, the primary aim is for those players to add to and improve the squad and the team on the pitch so that we are in an ever increasing position to challenge at the top end of the table. While that process is under way, as was the case last summer, then there is aways a likelihood that some of the players will have opportunity to improve their situation, and with the nature of players contracts these days, the club will have to take a pragmatic view and take the money rather than lose the players for nothing. 

We have 3 way to combat this happening:

1. Gain promotion, so that we can offer both improved financial terms and a higher standard of football. I am certain this is the aim of SL's plan, but given the competition is going be tough to achieve. I am also certain that many of the SL's/the club's will point to failure to sign a striker as "evidence/proof' that we are are not really going for promotion, or that SL is not prepared to put his hand in his pocket to achieve it.

2. Go back to buying  journeyman pros - the so called " proven at this level" -  with big transfer fees and equally big wages, thereby reducing the chances of another club being tempted to risk big money on players often at the tail end of careers.

3. Buy players will little potential to develop to a decent standard, so that they will never be attractive to bigger and better clubs.

 

 

[1bristolcity]

1 hour ago, Red Army 75 said:

It’s just a matter of time before LJs head is turned IMO . Very ambitious person 

Henry Winter was quoted on 5 live saying Lee was the best manager outside the 'elite' few in the Prem. 

[Red Skin]

1 hour ago, Fat Cigar said:

Key thing is to be a bit phlegmatic about it all

Now there's a bit of advice that OTIBers could do with.  (I had to look phlegmatic up tbh.  I'm on antibiotics for a chest infection right now and thought it was what I was coughing up was making me this!)

I'm with you, by the way.  Enjoy these players while they are here.  And look forward to watching new one emerge as opportunities arise.

Out of the three I was gutted to see Reid go.  Always been a fan from the start.  And would be saddened to  see O'Dowda leave, but I'm also looking forward to seeing Morrell and Walsh play just as much these days. 

[bcfc01]

Cliche alert....

One door closes, another one opens.

Nobody is irreplaceable.

etc.

 

[Redtucks]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

That is exactly the point a number of us have been making about the SL plan.  Every August is starting with massive team changes with no guarantee that we will have upgraded or even replaced.

The loss of Kalas will be a great blow and if Webster goes too we start all over again with the defence.  DaSilva also likely to go back to Chelsea, who are now on a transfer ban. Coming back however is Vyner, giving us four right backs and one left back. Great.

I wish I was as happy and optimistic as you!!!

 

[Monkeh]

Every club, Man City aside, sells key players at some point,

its the nature of the game, sell players no matter how key they are isn’t the problem,

its who you replace them with that’s the issue, more often then not Ashton and Johnson has got this correct, as well as bagging is massive profit,

 

[Redrascal2]

2 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

It’s going to happen again isn’t it? Last year we lost Reid, Bryan & Flint. 

I think the reality is that this summer we’re more than likely going to lose one or more of the following:

Webster, Brownhill & O’Dowda. 

Add to that the loss of Kalas (almost certainly) and da Silva (maybe). 

Now obviously the club don’t have to sell (although they’ll probably have to sell O’Dowda), but the money in football nowadays is such that I suspect that a number of clubs will meet our valuations.

LJ certainly has a job on his hands this summer and I don’t envy him one bit... the only way out is probably promotion. Fingers crossed eh. 

Absolutely spot on. And I am not sure how we break the cycle unless at some point we compete in the transfer market with the big boys in the Championship. What is certain you cannot lose your best players each year and expect to challenge for play offs.

[Big C]

O'Dowda may well go because of his contract situation both Webster and Brownhill will remain because of their contract situation.

 

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

It’s going to happen again isn’t it? Last year we lost Reid, Bryan & Flint. 

I think the reality is that this summer we’re more than likely going to lose one or more of the following:

Webster, Brownhill & O’Dowda. 

Add to that the loss of Kalas (almost certainly) and da Silva (maybe). 

Now obviously the club don’t have to sell (although they’ll probably have to sell O’Dowda), but the money in football nowadays is such that I suspect that a number of clubs will meet our valuations.

LJ certainly has a job on his hands this summer and I don’t envy him one bit... the only way out is probably promotion. Fingers crossed eh. 

Is this not a normal challenge for a great many clubs?

These are challenges that can be expected, planned for and met by the strategy etc the club is supposed to have. If the team has to be rebuilt every season and new playing foundations put in place its not a proficient football club.

Mr Johnson should have in place the means to continue to progress the teams football regardless of promotion. Each season should be a continuation of the identity, project, philosophy, training and work already put in over seasons. 

[sh1t_ref_again]

2 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

That is exactly the point a number of us have been making about the SL plan.  Every August is starting with massive team changes with no guarantee that we will have upgraded or even replaced.

The loss of Kalas will be a great blow and if Webster goes too we start all over again with the defence.  DaSilva also likely to go back to Chelsea, who are now on a transfer ban. Coming back however is Vyner, giving us four right backs and one left back. Great.

You never miss an opportunity to have a go at SL do you - what is your problem him?

Fortunately most of us can see the benefit of developing players and enjoying them and the team being successful, which does mean we lose a few along the way, but with good profits made we have more to invest. Substitute your comments back to last year when losing 3 key players and obviously this season is going to be rubbish!

[downendcity]

9 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Absolutely spot on. And I am not sure how we break the cycle unless at some point we compete in the transfer market with the big boys in the Championship. What is certain you cannot lose your best players each year and expect to challenge for play offs.

We lost 3 of our best players last summer but approaching  the business end of this season, are challenging for a play off place.

 

[Robbored]

2 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

It’s going to happen again isn’t it? Last year we lost Reid, Bryan & Flint. 

I think the reality is that this summer we’re more than likely going to lose one or more of the following:

Webster, Brownhill & O’Dowda. 

Add to that the loss of Kalas (almost certainly) and da Silva (maybe). 

Now obviously the club don’t have to sell (although they’ll probably have to sell O’Dowda), but the money in football nowadays is such that I suspect that a number of clubs will meet our valuations.

LJ certainly has a job on his hands this summer and I don’t envy him one bit... the only way out is probably promotion. Fingers crossed eh. 

Wasn’t otib it meltdown last season at the thought of losing Flint, Reid and Bryan?  and what has actually  happened? 

We now have a far stronger defence which has proven to be the bedrock of the team. We’re now stronger and that’s all down the excellent recruiting analysts/scouts and LJ and MA making astute signings on the back of the information they receive.

Should City lose senior players this summer window then there’s absolutely no reason why those departures can’t be replaced as they were last season.

LJ knows what players he wants that will be able to play the way he wants and no doubt at all he has a shopping list well  prepared for the next window and probably the windows after that.

Have faith in our Head Coach....

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Forget this post, just reiterates and expands on my initial one earlier in thread.

[ZiderEyed]

2 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Ooh. Brave call. I hope we don’t. But I just can’t see Webster & Brownhill not being on bigger clubs radars. Webster especially. 

I also get that we’ve have the players you’ve mentioned above, however would you really have confidence that they’ll be as good as Webster & Brownhill? Time will tell I guess. 

It's evidence to me we're going about transfer business in the right way. 

All 3 players signed under LJ, all 3 players will and should demand a hefty fee to be prised away from us. 

Who would've thought a lad from Ipswich, someone signed for a few hundred grand from PNE and some Irish lad from oxford would be 3 of our most valuable assets? I've been one of Johnson's most vociferous critics but I truly believe that players will step up and fill the boots of players who have moved on, or we will bring in better alternatives.

Moore was England U21 captain. Vyner was excellent in League 1 at centre half and is making his first steps in this division. Kelly has been on Liverpool and Man United's radars for months now. As you say, time will tell, but it's not desperate I don't think. Not yet anyway.