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108% of income go on wages


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1 minute ago, RedDave said:

City are spending 108% of income on wages. Only these teams are worse out of the 92 teams. Goes to show how tough it is to compete and how calls for Lansdown to fund a spree are ridiculous 

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Only those teams and 18 others surely?

92 League clubs and that part of the list is 61-74.

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1 minute ago, RedDave said:

City are spending 108% of income on wages. Only these teams are worse out of the 92 teams. Goes to show how tough it is to compete and how calls for Lansdown to fund a spree are ridiculous 

0B37FCC6-8D56-48D2-94DD-D19CB89FF97D.png

Was during the season where we sold very little. Tomlin was possibly to only sale. 

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2 hours ago, RedDave said:

City are spending 108% of income on wages. Only these teams are worse out of the 74 clubs that have published info. Goes to show how tough it is to compete and how calls for Lansdown to fund a spree are ridiculous 

0B37FCC6-8D56-48D2-94DD-D19CB89FF97D.png

What’s the source for those figures RD?

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6 minutes ago, santibello said:

I mean who would pay to see Scunthorpe?

Their fans? It wasn’t that long ago we were promoted to the second tier under GJ and that season they finished above us ... no need to look down on other clubs, we ain’t in a position to be condescending are we ?!

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11 hours ago, Red Right Hand said:

What the hell are Scunthorpe paying to be in that list?

I don't know a great deal about Scunthorpe's squad but are there possible parallel's with City c.2010 in a division lower?

If these figures reflect this season... Having missed out on promotion, the likelihood of them having players they don't want to play, and can't sell is higher. They also would have considered bringing in more experience, commanding higher wages than their average - and like others have pointed out, their income is going to be minuscule compared to the top earners in their league.

If they reflect last season (which I expect they are because there are 2017 figures highlighted + Chesterfield)... weren't they in the play-offs with Charlton? Chasing promotion with Blackburn & Wigan. I know Charlton have had their troubles but they have always been there or there abouts, in spite of their owners, because they are a big fish at that level. It looks like they invested wisely, but should have expected a higher than normal income with their decent season so the next figures could look a bit scary for them!

Of the remaining 31 English league clubs (of those 74, 12 were Scottish & 1 is Chesterfield) I'd fully expect Sheffield Wednesday & Bolton's 2018 accounts to show much higher than 100%, potentially Bradford (although I'm not sure about their income), as well as Fleetwood, Bury & Mansfield to spend more than 100% of their 'income' on wages - we're definitely travelling in the right direction, and reaping the benefits of having a small squad when we won league one (how many of that squad left making a profit for City?).

I'm not overlooking the increase in income since we were in the Championship last time, but I doubt we would only be paying 108% of income on wages if we hadn't had the clear out of 2013.

9 minutes ago, italian dave said:

How on earth can you spend twice your income on wages?! Presumably Wolves got away with the same way Villa have, by getting promoted and Premiership income the following year. But Birmingham, Reading???

Does this figure include bonuses? I'm not sure which are exempt from FFP, but promotion is definitely, you would assume appearances are not exempt but performance related ones could be. Anything over 100% is paid by the owners, any rainy day funds or taking out whopping great loans.

This is also only one year's figure - some of these clubs could have made a profit in the previous year & most clubs will cloud their accounts with other business that is not football related because they won't want to reveal how much they have to spend. I am confident City/Bristol Sport both made a profit the previous season and have intentionally muddied the waters somehow to make the position look worse pre-FFP adjustments.

As a fan, interested in who is breaking the rules, it's quite frustrating, but from their perspective, you can understand not wanting to weaken your bargaining position by revealing to potential negotiators how much you have available.

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My issue with Lansdown isn't that we've been spending so little. It's that over a decade into his rule, we're still in a position where we're, in football terms, living pay-cheque to pay-cheque.

That's not to say he hasn't done great work in building us up over the past decade, but it was necessary in order to compete in a league with rising costs. If we're to truly compete for a place in the Premier League, we need to be doing more off the pitch to strengthen our position on it.

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1 hour ago, EnderMB said:

My issue with Lansdown isn't that we've been spending so little. It's that over a decade into his rule, we're still in a position where we're, in football terms, living pay-cheque to pay-cheque.

That's not to say he hasn't done great work in building us up over the past decade, but it was necessary in order to compete in a league with rising costs. If we're to truly compete for a place in the Premier League, we need to be doing more off the pitch to strengthen our position on it.

Imo it's misleading to say "over a decade into his rule..."

We've only been in a position to compete properly at this level since the ground redevelopment was finished.

I look at it like this - the new Grandstand was ready, and the redevelopment of Ashton Gate completed,  for the start of season 2016-17 so this, for me, becomes Year Zero, the time at which BCFC finally became fit for purpose (an all-seater ground! executive boxes! edible food!! - all things plenty of poxy clubs had years and years before us).

This means we're only 3 seasons into being able to compete on an equal footing with other clubs at tis level.

I would agree it's taken too long to get us to this point and part of the reason for that would be poor decisions made by those running the club. But all that's been discussed to death and can be left in the past, as far as I'm concerned.

Looking to the future, next season - for me - is Year 4 of us actually being fit for purpose. And if you think of it in those terms we've made good progress since Year Zero in 2016-17, and progress that's based on solid foundations.  Rome wasn't built in a day!

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2 hours ago, EnderMB said:

My issue with Lansdown isn't that we've been spending so little. It's that over a decade into his rule, we're still in a position where we're, in football terms, living pay-cheque to pay-cheque.

That's not to say he hasn't done great work in building us up over the past decade, but it was necessary in order to compete in a league with rising costs. If we're to truly compete for a place in the Premier League, we need to be doing more off the pitch to strengthen our position on it.

You don't think that a new 27,000 all-seater stadium with corporate facilities which is used for events almost every single day of the year, and concrete plans for a brand new training facility and expansion to the Ashton Gate site including hotels and a multi-use sports and entertainment arena counts as off-field progress? 

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9 hours ago, italian dave said:

How on earth can you spend twice your income on wages?! Presumably Wolves got away with the same way Villa have, by getting promoted and Premiership income the following year. But Birmingham, Reading???

When we got relegated last time we were paying something like 250%!! 

Thats why to 5 pillars were brought in to try and stabilise us!

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20 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Cheers RD - not sure how reliable the website linked to that Twitter account is - he’s got lots of followers but that doesn’t always indicate accuracy - thanks for the information though ...

He is certainly pretty accurate- not infallible but pretty accurate, reliable.

Would be interested to know your football finance analysis.

8 hours ago, EnderMB said:

My issue with Lansdown isn't that we've been spending so little. It's that over a decade into his rule, we're still in a position where we're, in football terms, living pay-cheque to pay-cheque.

That's not to say he hasn't done great work in building us up over the past decade, but it was necessary in order to compete in a league with rising costs. If we're to truly compete for a place in the Premier League, we need to be doing more off the pitch to strengthen our position on it.

Not his fault- it is the nature of the division.

We have taken major strides- but last few years there has been a huge mismatch growing between wages/TV money. Or perhaps more accurately, football costs v TV money at this level. We can always do more though- indeed that should be the aim.

By football costs, I basically mean wages + amortisation- it is nuts. I'll go through it and work out wages/turnover ratio in Championship 2017/18 as an average, 2 clubs who haven't published aside.

@solihull cider red

Quote

 

 This is also only one year's figure - some of these clubs could have made a profit in the previous year & most clubs will cloud their accounts with other business that is not football related because they won't want to reveal how much they have to spend. I am confident City/Bristol Sport both made a profit the previous season and have intentionally muddied the waters somehow to make the position look worse pre-FFP adjustments.


 

Are you talking about us? I am not quite sure what you mean- which season do you think we made a profit in? Definitely we did not...wages though the main cost, but the only one- if wages before anything else are 108% of turnover, it's a definite loss- unless you have big sales. That is before all the other costs of running a club and then 

This season just gone, I think we have given the Kelly sale was in this seasons accounts, absolutely. 2017/18? Certainly not.

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

He is certainly pretty accurate- not infallible but pretty accurate, reliable.

Would be interested to know your football finance analysis.

I merely asked @RedDave about the source of the figures he posted - I didn’t suggest I had analysed football finance - and I’m not sure why you’d be interested to know my analysis - it wouldn’t be very fascinating .... 

Bit touchy!

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11 hours ago, EnderMB said:

My issue with Lansdown isn't that we've been spending so little. It's that over a decade into his rule, we're still in a position where we're, in football terms, living pay-cheque to pay-cheque.

That's not to say he hasn't done great work in building us up over the past decade, but it was necessary in order to compete in a league with rising costs. If we're to truly compete for a place in the Premier League, we need to be doing more off the pitch to strengthen our position on it.

Have you not noticed what’s going on off the pitch..?!

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13 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Have you not noticed what’s going on off the pitch..?!

Yep, it's in my second paragraph.

My point is that without that work, we couldn't survive as a Championship club. Since Lansdown took the helm we've seen a whole generation of talent come through - one of them being our current manager.

He's done brilliantly to build Ashton Gate into a modern stadium that fits a Championship team, and he's built a solid academy that is developing talent with the ability to play in the Premier League, but for a club with ambitions in this division, this puts us on par with everyone else.

My gripe isn't with what he's done. It's with ensuring that money comes into the club. We still struggle to get commercial money into the club, and are still heavily reliant on getting bums on seats. Building the commercial side of the club should be Lansdown's bread and butter, but it's something we've really struggled with for years.

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8 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

Yep, it's in my second paragraph.

My point is that without that work, we couldn't survive as a Championship club. Since Lansdown took the helm we've seen a whole generation of talent come through - one of them being our current manager.

He's done brilliantly to build Ashton Gate into a modern stadium that fits a Championship team, and he's built a solid academy that is developing talent with the ability to play in the Premier League, but for a club with ambitions in this division, this puts us on par with everyone else.

My gripe isn't with what he's done. It's with ensuring that money comes into the club. We still struggle to get commercial money into the club, and are still heavily reliant on getting bums on seats. Building the commercial side of the club should be Lansdown's bread and butter, but it's something we've really struggled with for years.

If only he had organised massive concerts, or started selling kits to other clubs, or wanted to build hotels, or developed a unique business model to share overheads between different sports. 

More of the same please, Sir Steve. 

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16 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

Yep, it's in my second paragraph.

My point is that without that work, we couldn't survive as a Championship club. Since Lansdown took the helm we've seen a whole generation of talent come through - one of them being our current manager.

He's done brilliantly to build Ashton Gate into a modern stadium that fits a Championship team, and he's built a solid academy that is developing talent with the ability to play in the Premier League, but for a club with ambitions in this division, this puts us on par with everyone else.

My gripe isn't with what he's done. It's with ensuring that money comes into the club. We still struggle to get commercial money into the club, and are still heavily reliant on getting bums on seats. Building the commercial side of the club should be Lansdown's bread and butter, but it's something we've really struggled with for years.

In the past, yes, but since the stadium development we have events/conferences at Ashton Gate on an almost daily basis. We have our biggest ever sponsorship deal in place. Concession turnover has increased 10 fold since the rebuild. So it’s definitely getting there. All thanks to SL and the teams he’s put in place. 

It’s difficult to step up to the next level financially, without stepping up to the premier league. Even a failed stint there would change the club’s prospects beyond recognition. It’s just bloody hard to get there..! 

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29 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

Yep, it's in my second paragraph.

My point is that without that work, we couldn't survive as a Championship club. Since Lansdown took the helm we've seen a whole generation of talent come through - one of them being our current manager.

He's done brilliantly to build Ashton Gate into a modern stadium that fits a Championship team, and he's built a solid academy that is developing talent with the ability to play in the Premier League, but for a club with ambitions in this division, this puts us on par with everyone else.

My gripe isn't with what he's done. It's with ensuring that money comes into the club. We still struggle to get commercial money into the club, and are still heavily reliant on getting bums on seats. Building the commercial side of the club should be Lansdown's bread and butter, but it's something we've really struggled with for years.

Commercial income - Championship 2017/18. We're getting better. Events seem to be growing. Add in 4 large attendance concerts...

D3T9CWwWwAIwZgf.png

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3 hours ago, View from the Dolman said:

Commercial income - Championship 2017/18. We're getting better. Events seem to be growing. Add in 4 large attendance concerts...

D3T9CWwWwAIwZgf.png

Where'd you get those figures? I'd be very interested in taking a look if there is any more detail across the league.

I'd also be very interested in how the latest development plans aim to improve those figures. It's a good sign, but momentum is key, and it'd be nice to see that number grow year on year until we can get closer to the Villa figures.

On the Villa subject, for some reason that ground seems to do far more commercial stuff than ours. A week doesn't go by without some event, party, conference, or gig happening there, and while Ashton Gate does a lot more than it used to, I can see why they're so much further ahead.

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14 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

Where'd you get those figures? I'd be very interested in taking a look if there is any more detail across the league.

I'd also be very interested in how the latest development plans aim to improve those figures. It's a good sign, but momentum is key, and it'd be nice to see that number grow year on year until we can get closer to the Villa figures.

On the Villa subject, for some reason that ground seems to do far more commercial stuff than ours. A week doesn't go by without some event, party, conference, or gig happening there, and while Ashton Gate does a lot more than it used to, I can see why they're so much further ahead.

I suspect- recognising the graph style etc- it'd be either Swiss Ramble or Kieran Maguire. :thumbsup:

The ones who are a decent amount in front are Leeds. £21.8m!! In a season in which they started well, top 6 or so around Christmas but fell away to the bottom half.

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57 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

Where'd you get those figures? I'd be very interested in taking a look if there is any more detail across the league.

The graph comes from Kieran Maguire's Twitter account - he's the guy the media call on to do football finance analysis so the numbers will be from accounts filed at Companies House.

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