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Playing out from back


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16 hours ago, Magger1 said:

Can anyone see why we play out every time from the back we are not Barcelona,today we lost the ball on numerous accounts from OVER PASSING , it allows teams to push high on you and soon as a pass goes astray then your deep in the shit 

City don't play the ball out from the back every time. In seasons the team has not conceded a significantly high number of goals from doing so. The team is not even a Bournemouth who also build attacks from the first third and the intent is clearly not to play like Barcelona (4-3-3 etc).

What would your alternatives be? 

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8 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Acutally, it was Baker followed by Brownhill. Pereira's pass success rate was 53% which is very poor but vitally important goal. Big problem was Palmer and O'Dowda. Dispossessed 3 times each. The former far more guilty of over playing/too many tricks.

i'm surprised it was as low as 3 times for Palmer. 

It seemed like every time he had the ball, he lingered on it, trying to work out the best pass, but was robbed while he was still pondering.

O'Dowda did at least win us some ground with his forward runs.

 

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51 minutes ago, BigTone said:

We had a habit last season of taking quick free kicks which regularly backfired. Sometimes I think it is better to take your time, get players into position (and get their breath) and take it from there,

Hmmmm.....the counter argument to that Tone is that when time is taken over a free kick the opposition have time to get in position which if they’ve done it properly leads to them nullifying the free kick.

On the other hand a quickly taken free kick can catch the opposition cold. 

Ultimately it’s down to the instinct of the player over the ball of course.

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2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

i'm surprised it was as low as 3 times for Palmer. 

It seemed like every time he had the ball, he lingered on it, trying to work out the best pass, but was robbed while he was still pondering.

O'Dowda did at least win us some ground with his forward runs.

 

Similar to Palmer, O'Dowda does not know when to release the damn thing! We have many players who need to get their heads up a bit more.

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Hmmmm.....the counter argument to that Tone is that when time is taken over a free kick the opposition have time to get in position which if they’ve done it properly leads to them nullifying the free kick.

On the other hand a quickly taken free kick can catch the opposition cold. 

Ultimately it’s down to the instinct of the player over the ball of course.

The ref stopped us taking a few quick free kicks yesterday. That does not help.

 

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14 hours ago, Simon79 said:

It’s all well trying to play out from the back, but firstly you have to pass the ball with purpose ( getting it from A to B as quickly as possible), but to do this, you have to one be confident in your passing ability & secondly be confident in your teammate handling the ball. I’ve noticed a few on here have mentioned Williams not going forward, I believe he did, every time he had the option to ( I’ll come back to that in a bit ). But for me, when he passes it, it’s with a real zip. Some though, it takes an age to get to the attended target, thus slowing down the play. Then after that, coming back to my options point, it’s the bloody lack of movement. Not just that, but it’s the unintelligent movement. Weimann making runs that are not going to be picked up or no likelihood of being executed. Elliasson showing his back to the player on the ball. Players standing behind opposition players, move two yards left or right, create a bloody angle. It’s my pet hate, a lack of movement. Players not being able to find pockets of space or creating angles to receive the ball. But once you have the option,  pass it with some purpose, don’t bloody flick it! COYR 

Massively spot on....some of the most unintelligent movement I've ever witnessed yesterday. Was like schoolboys sometimes.

 

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2 minutes ago, spudski said:

Massively spot on....some of the most unintelligent movement I've ever witnessed yesterday. Was like schoolboys sometimes.

 

Actually wanting the ball helps as well. The more the groans grew, the more certain players wanted to hide. Szmodics berated by many on here but has come on in two difficult games recently. HOWEVER: He wanted the ball, showed for it and often pointed to where he wanted it. I'd give him a go over Palmer in a central role. The kid wants to drive forward. + don't get me started on our throw ins. We waste so much time on these. When a player shows, they are often ignored then we invariably want to throw it back. At times in front of the Lansdown, our lads were screaming at the thrower to put it forward. Clearly, we weren't all on the same page yesterday.

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2 minutes ago, spudski said:

Massively spot on....some of the most unintelligent movement I've ever witnessed yesterday. Was like schoolboys sometimes.

 

Very unusual for City. In normal circumstances movement is pretty good but yesterday - largely down to Wigan’s pressing style , City just weren’t able to find enough space.

I and the guy next to me both noticed the lack of proactive passing from City and agreed that it was largely down to the opposition.

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29 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Hmmmm.....the counter argument to that Tone is that when time is taken over a free kick the opposition have time to get in position which if they’ve done it properly leads to them nullifying the free kick.

On the other hand a quickly taken free kick can catch the opposition cold. 

Ultimately it’s down to the instinct of the player over the ball of course.

Take your point but sometimes we take it so quick we muck ourselves up. That's football I suppose. Does make me laugh when some say why play out from the back when you can kick it long. Then others moaning about Warnockesque hoof ball instead of playing it out from the back. Better in all instances that we have a mixture of both.

Edited by BigTone
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58 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

i'm surprised it was as low as 3 times for Palmer. 

It seemed like every time he had the ball, he lingered on it, trying to work out the best pass, but was robbed while he was still pondering.

O'Dowda did at least win us some ground with his forward runs.

 

Again it’s a lack of movement around him , where was his out ball ? 
 

Of course every time he had possession Wigan pressed  him quickly  , without Massengo close to him he was vulnerable.

 

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10 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Again it’s a lack of movement around him , where was his out ball ? 
 

Of course every time he had possession Wigan pressed  him quickly  , without Massengo close to him he was vulnerable.

 

I think he was looking for the spectacular when sometimes the simple would've been better.

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Very unusual for City. In normal circumstances movement is pretty good but yesterday - largely down to Wigan’s pressing style , City just weren’t able to find enough space.

I and the guy next to me both noticed the lack of proactive passing from City and agreed that it was largely down to the opposition.

There was movement fella...but it was into the wrong areas.

I gave an example yesterday where Pedro repeatedly had the ball wide on the halfway line...with a defender in front of him. So what do Eliasson and Weimann do?..they run into positions directly in line with the defender behind and away. The one spot it is impossible to pass too. It was mental. One had to drop inside on the angle at least.

Then on the other side, Rowe had the ball in the same position on the left, after receiving a cross field pass. He receives, looks up, and where are Weimann and Rodri...waiting in a line on the other side of the pitch. Literally no diagonal movement across to receive or draw players.

At one point when we were chasing the game yesterday, we had five players stood in a straight high line, all with defenders on them...not one of them moved...just stood there.

Our defence and Keeper have all been excellent in the majority of games, and I thought they were against Wigan again. The majority of the rest looked like school boys who'd never played together. Literally no understanding, or no natural football movement to create space, angles or to receive the ball.

Imo... Brownhill apart from his goal recently has been really below par. So many passes going awry. Odowda tried to keep dribbling instead of passing...Palmer kept trying to beat players in ridiculous dangerous areas... overplaying instead of passing, and Eliasson...well he's really doing my head in. If he ever gets the ball at his feet..skip, skip...cross....and that's pretty much it. His understanding of what is needed the rest of the time in offensive link up play and defending is infruriating. It's an absolute joke.

Poor Massengo is literally covering every blade of grass to cover so many errors of judgement.

Our offensive players look like they've never trained or played together. We look like half a team and a bunch of individuals running around doing their own thing.

Worst team performance I've seen in years.

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3 minutes ago, spudski said:

There was movement fella...but it was into the wrong areas.

I gave an example yesterday where Pedro repeatedly had the ball wide on the halfway line...with a defender in front of him. So what do Eliasson and Weimann do?..they run into positions directly in line with the defender behind and away. The one spot it is impossible to pass too. It was mental. One had to drop inside on the angle at least.

Then on the other side, Rowe had the ball in the same position on the left, after receiving a cross field pass. He receives, looks up, and where are Weimann and Rodri...waiting in a line on the other side of the pitch. Literally no diagonal movement across to receive or draw players.

At one point when we were chasing the game yesterday, we had five players stood in a straight high line, all with defenders on them...not one of them moved...just stood there.

Our defence and Keeper have all been excellent in the majority of games, and I thought they were against Wigan again. The majority of the rest looked like school boys who'd never played together. Literally no understanding, or no natural football movement to create space, angles or to receive the ball.

Imo... Brownhill apart from his goal recently has been really below par. So many passes going awry. Odowda tried to keep dribbling instead of passing...Palmer kept trying to beat players in ridiculous dangerous areas... overplaying instead of passing, and Eliasson...well he's really doing my head in. If he ever gets the ball at his feet..skip, skip...cross....and that's pretty much it. His understanding of what is needed the rest of the time in offensive link up play and defending is infruriating. It's an absolute joke.

Poor Massengo is literally covering every blade of grass to cover so many errors of judgement.

Our offensive players look like they've never trained or played together. We look like half a team and a bunch of individuals running around doing their own thing.

Worst team performance I've seen in years.

And there was I giving credit for City's poor showing to Wigan......:cool2: who I thought were excellent btw......


Let’s not forget the opposition play a huge factor in stifling City’s play and yesterday the Ltics did that particularly well.

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19 hours ago, Robbored said:

Why not consider the simple fact that Wigan stifled our play? They pressed extremely well and frequently the likes of Williams and Baker had no out pass available so passed along the back line or back to Bentley. The crowd became increasingly impatient with the lack of forward play and that was entirely down to the Latics.

Wigan looked a decent side imv.

This. 1000% 

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9 minutes ago, Robbored said:

And there was I giving credit for City's poor showing to Wigan......:cool2: who I thought were excellent btw......


Let’s not forget the opposition play a huge factor in stifling City’s play and yesterday the Ltics did that particularly well.

They did play well RR...however...they pressed high and that gave us loads of space in behind to move into. We just didn't do it.

It frustrates me so much when I hear fans moaning when we play backwards or across the back four. Why can they simply not see there is no movement into the correct areas for our defensive players to pass too.

When Palmer dropped...what did he do? He received the ball and he allowed two players onto him. Did anyone move to receive a pass from him into the space left by the opposition? Hardly ever. And even if they did, Palmer's natural reaction is to try and wriggle and beat the players on him, regardless of where he is on the pitch. Never a simple give and go.

The simple basics of give and go, creating angles has gone out of the window.

I agree Wigan played to their strengths, but they also gave us lots of room to play.

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8 minutes ago, spudski said:

They did play well RR...however...they pressed high and that gave us loads of space in behind to move into. We just didn't do it.

It frustrates me so much when I hear fans moaning when we play backwards or across the back four. Why can they simply not see there is no movement into the correct areas for our defensive players to pass too.

When Palmer dropped...what did he do? He received the ball and he allowed two players onto him. Did anyone move to receive a pass from him into the space left by the opposition? Hardly ever. And even if they did, Palmer's natural reaction is to try and wriggle and beat the players on him, regardless of where he is on the pitch. Never a simple give and go.

The simple basics of give and go, creating angles has gone out of the window.

I agree Wigan played to their strengths, but they also gave us lots of room to play.

Maybe that’s what was referring to post match. He didn’t throw anyone under the bus but clearly wasn’t happy with certain player’s performances.

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4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Maybe that’s what was referring to post match. He didn’t throw anyone under the bus but clearly wasn’t happy with certain player’s performances.

Yep...said players were carrying 4 or 5 players. Basically half the team...well I can't see Bentley, Rowe, Pedro, Williams, Moore and maybe Baker being any of them...and he said Odowda played well, so that leaves the rest. I wouldn't blame Massengo...however imo the rest were dire. I'd forgive Rodri.

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On several oaccasions we played the ball out from our area, then sideways, backwards, sideways again, and back to Bentley who just hoofed it forward anyway.

What's the point of that? So pedestrian, it didn't move Wigan around or disrupt their set up.

So, given that we don't (at the moment) have the players with speed, accuracy or creativity required to play it out from the back, Bentley may just as well have hoofed it first-time.

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13 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

On several oaccasions we played the ball out from our area, then sideways, backwards, sideways again, and back to Bentley who just hoofed it forward anyway.

What's the point of that? So pedestrian, it didn't move Wigan around or disrupt their set up.

So, given that we don't (at the moment) have the players with speed, accuracy or creativity required to play it out from the back, Bentley may just as well have hoofed it first-time.

All passes move the opposition unless the opposition decide to let the opposition have it in areas unopposed. 

You do go backwards to go forwards. Its stretches the pitch and creates space to move into. Citys players do split to create space. They do make the pitch big. But that is just the primary stage. The second stage should be movement short and long, and players in diangles (triangles & diamonds) creating options not in straight lines as Spudski mentions. Players for teams building from the back should be showing between lines and City need to build on this, it Is something a Lee Johnson Bristol City side has done well before. 

There is still merit in holding onto it then going long if the opposition press the ball, the opposition have moved and a % ball has improved numerically.  

 

Edited by Cowshed
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14 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

All passes move the opposition unless the opposition decide to let the opposition have it in areas unopposed. 

You do go backwards to go forwards. Its stretches the pitch and creates space to move into. Citys players do split to create space. They do make the pitch big. But that is just the primary stage. The second stage should be movement short and long, and players in diangles (triangles & diamonds) creating options not in straight lines as Spudski mentions. Players for teams building from the back should be showing between lines and City need to build on this, it Is something a Lee Johnson Bristol City side has done well before. 

There is still merit in holding onto it then going long if the opposition press the ball, the opposition have moved and a % ball has improved numerically.  

 

I understand the theory, and teams like Man City do it well.

But you need the right kind of players (and coaching ) to make it work.

Man City, and similar teams with right kind of players, usually play it from the back with some pace and urgency.

Like yesterday, we've been doing it too slowly and predictably.

 

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1 minute ago, Bazooka Joe said:

I understand the theory, and teams like Man City do it well.

But you need the right kind of players (and coaching ) to make it work.

Man City, and similar teams with right kind of players, usually play it from the back with some pace and urgency.

Like yesterday, we've been doing it too slowly and predictably.

 

LJ wants to play this way, so we need players that can do it. Moore is very good at it. Need more like him, and sell Baker and Wright.

I think we have the midfielders now to do it better without Pack. I thought he was guilty of doing everything too slow, coming too deep too often too.

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27 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

I understand the theory, and teams like Man City do it well.

But you need the right kind of players (and coaching ) to make it work.

Man City, and similar teams with right kind of players, usually play it from the back with some pace and urgency.

Like yesterday, we've been doing it too slowly and predictably.

 

Bristol City have done what they do well in the past.

A team like Man City use the principle of immediate support of the ball, as the ball enters zones players have to move to relational distances to the possession so the players has multiple options to select. Movement … It hardly exclusive to the right sort of player

If Bristol City do not have players who can understand it goes backwards I move, if the player is facing towards me in possession that is my trigger to move again, and have the ability to check their shoulders I would question what Mr Johnson has recruited and what players have been doing in the long term at the club.

Bristol City recruited a keeper who is as good as it gets for distributing the ball outside of the Premiership if he is not here to assist the team to move the ball fluently, break lines, hit receivers I would question again what he is doing here. 

City do have the players to improve here now. 

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Been disappointed with how City have played the ball out from the back this season as was expected. Webster was always going to be a loss and CB's have not stepped up to fill the gap but midfielders need to do more. There is too much facing the ball  instead of getting on the half turn

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2 hours ago, BCFCadam said:

Baker never looks for the forward option. Webster would always either pump it forward whereas Baker looks to the wings, and Rowe isn't as capable on the ball as Dasilva therefore we struggle.

Not sure what Baker's strengths are.

Very wayward distribution on the few occasions he attempts it, and all too often beaten in the air.

Our defence tends to look less secure and more vulnerable, particularly to to crosses and corners, when he's picked imo.

 

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Hard- not impossible, but hard- to play out from the back without a more defensive minded player in CM.

Don't mean a destroyer type but someone reasonable defensively, and technically good- makes it very hard to negate the press, when up against a CM three- now maybe if very quick, yet precise breaks it's different but without it, it feels like a mismatch.

Overall though, 3 for Wigan vs what is in effect Brownhill, a number 10 and a winger/CAM...that's going to cause problems for us!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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