Sad and embarrassed

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Chappers said:

There is also the point that Nagy and Massengo are both supposedly defensive midfielders, so in theory they should be strong enough to allow the more creative players to play. Without that solid base, your midfield falls apart. They will obviously need time to learn how to cope with the pace and physical demands of the Championship, but recent games have been worrying, with neither really looking to hold the ball, or move it forward positively.

Maybe Massengo needs a loan back to France, get some game time in a less physical environment.

I don’t think they are DMs at all.  Both want to progress their positions relevant to the position of the ball in the pitch.  Nagy, when he was playing better, broke into the box.  Massengo was just growing confidence to be a bit more expansive, until our bad run.

[spudski]

3 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Posters are picking up on a theme in Spudskis posts. He is consistently critical of City's defending and attacking, its players, the teams tactics and its leadership but it is again being overtly critical of fans who do similar.

It is uneven. 

You are wrong again in your understanding.

Critical of playing style etc is one thing,and debating that is fine.

It's the entitled grumbling of people complaining about not being in the top 6 or that it's not entertaining every week. And using the time they've supported the club as a meter to judge when they think promotion should happen. Threats of boycotts etc.

Never a thread about getting behind the lads and helping them out. If the Owner, players and coaching staff had the same defeatest attitude as some on here we'd be league 2 in no time

The bigger picture.

Being critical of each match and what happens is completely different. Talking about that and how it could be improved in our opinion, that's good debate.

Slamming the club because it doesn't suit their desired timeline is completely ridiculous.

Glad you chose to pick on a poster instead of a post.

At least it was coherent this time...mostly it's like a cut and paste job out of a coaching manual, then mixed up into incoherent jumbled mutterings...just saying I await with popcorn and coaching manual

[Red Exile]

I'm not embarrassed, although I think the current set up is a bit sad...pitiful at times.

I go to the theatre regularly and this season feels as though every week is a preview performance - the cast is a bit unfamiliar and it might go well, or fall apart. In truth at times it feels like an early rehearsal...some players don't know their lines, some are wandering around with their scripts in their hands, some don't even appear to know what part they are playing, and the director is constantly shouting prompts.

It's felt like this before. It did - to me - under SOD. I gave up the ST and became a POD supporter in the Cotts glory days, when it was clear that not only did the cast know their lines but they were putting on stunning performances week after week in the hands of a director who really knew what it was doing. It was a privilege to watch. Oh for a bit more of that! A top class director...not the son of a mate of the theatre owner putting on his second or third play (the others having attracted little attention.)

I've read things on OTIB and in the press in recent days that have suggested that the club recruits, develops and manages its playing talent in a more incoherent way than even I feared. That's sad. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Chappers said:

There is also the point that Nagy and Massengo are both supposedly defensive midfielders, so in theory they should be strong enough to allow the more creative players to play. Without that solid base, your midfield falls apart. They will obviously need time to learn how to cope with the pace and physical demands of the Championship, but recent games have been worrying, with neither really looking to hold the ball, or move it forward positively.

Maybe Massengo needs a loan back to France, get some game time in a less physical environment.

Stick Rowe between them or when (if) he's back to his old self, Smith, Brownhill can go higher up.

Never really saw Massengo as a DM as such, Nagy I'm unsure on but his goal vs QPR wasn't indicative of a defence first player.

[RedLionLad]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

Back then did any of us do anything but hope that things would improve?    

However pretty much everything has changed in the 4 decades since. The internet for one and the social media that comes with it.........

This poor run of form will be short term and is just one part of just one season........

Social media: Where a vocal minority of fans spend all day every day thinking what they say is important in the grand scheme of things.

[Judda]

1 hour ago, Redpool said:

Johnson’s got the excuse ready for the next game..

Is that Massengo they're helping up?!?

[spudski]

20 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

I agree to a point , but for me it’s not about getting promoted now. I want to see progression in term of a regular formation, continuity of team selection and a style of play . Is that too much to ask ? 
As a club we’ve progressed massively but you can’t honestly say your happy with the football, it’s dire. No one knows what formation we’re going to get from one game to the next , the same with the team. As for a style of play , I genuinely haven’t got a clue. 
we’ll win a game and he’ll stick to it the formation and team, lose and he throws the baby out with the Bath water, baffling substitutions and formation changes. Players like continuity and simple instructions . With good managers , you know how they play , same formation every week . That’s all I want . LJ comes across as arrogant , that his shit don’t stink. Throwing players under the bus rather than taking the blame at times. How many changes , formation and players have we had at half time, then blaming the players, when it’s obvious he’s got things wrong from the start. I’m done with him to be honest. If there are fans demanding promotion then it’s ridiculous but most of us just want to enjoy our football, and quite frankly it’s enough to send a glass eye to sleep . 

I agree...it has been poor, and I think we have made mistakes.

But then I sit back and ask why, and try to see the reasons and bigger picture.

It's like going over old ground. Each time we have a dip, it's the same arguement.

I've said before many times, our club set up and the way it recruits, it's development structure, pathways etc will always lead to set backs. Always 2 forward, 1 back.

Even without long term injuries and having a perfect injury free season, we'd still struggle to be a guaranteed top 6.

I really do think certain fans have an unrealistic expectation as to what the quality of our squad can give results wise.

I look at it and take into consideration the injuries, the same mistakes all teams make, the individual mistakes etc and I feel what we are seeing right now is a true reflection of our squad.

We've had exhausted inexperienced players playing and have now brought back Kalas, Smith, Nagy, DaSiva...all finding their feet again. Put the two together and you'll get the past few weeks imo. 

The Club could do better in many ways...but I'm just trying to not over react to certain situations...many brought about by our recruitment philosophy imo.

[Red Exile]

12 minutes ago, spudski said:

I agree...it has been poor, and I think we have made mistakes.

But then I sit back and ask why, and try to see the reasons and bigger picture.

It's like going over old ground. Each time we have a dip, it's the same arguement.

I've said before many times, our club set up and the way it recruits, it's development structure, pathways etc will always lead to set backs. Always 2 forward, 1 back.

Even without long term injuries and having a perfect injury free season, we'd still struggle to be a guaranteed top 6.

I really do think certain fans have an unrealistic expectation as to what the quality of our squad can give results wise.

I look at it and take into consideration the injuries, the same mistakes all teams make, the individual mistakes etc and I feel what we are seeing right now is a true reflection of our squad.

We've had exhausted inexperienced players playing and have now brought back Kalas, Smith, Nagy, DaSiva...all finding their feet again. Put the two together and you'll get the past few weeks imo. 

The Club could do better in many ways...but I'm just trying to not over react to certain situations...many brought about by our recruitment philosophy imo.

That's a very reasonable position...and more like the old Spudski I used to enjoy debating with!

A problem with expectations originates, though, with the owner and his statements of his personal expectations...inflamed by the rest of the club hierarchy. I appreciate that they want to sound positive, and aspirational, and to sell tickets...but there's a point at which people look at what they see on the pitch and ask how it matches what was promised, when what they were promised did indeed feature, however aspirationally, the words 'top 6' and 'play-off's' and suggested pushing for promotion...not consolidation.

Even the old timers like me have competition for their time. Early in the season I can get on a train to Preston with enthusiasm. At the moment the 100 mile round trip to watch a confused and disjointed home performance feels unrewarding, whatever the excuses may be. 

[spudski]

13 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

That's a very reasonable position...and more like the old Spudski I used to enjoy debating with!

A problem with expectations originates, though, with the owner and his statements of his personal expectations...inflamed by the rest of the club hierarchy. I appreciate that they want to sound positive, and aspirational, and to sell tickets...but there's a point at which people look at what they see on the pitch and ask how it matches what was promised, when what they were promised did indeed feature, however aspirationally, the words 'top 6' and 'play-off's' and suggested pushing for promotion...not consolidation.

Even the old timers like me have competition for their time. Early in the season I can get on a train to Preston with enthusiasm. At the moment the 100 mile round trip to watch a confused and disjointed home performance feels unrewarding, whatever the excuses may be. 

I consider myself old too... over 50.

I tend to ignore or read in between the lines as to what things come out of the Club.

It all has an agenda to sell or give as little away as possible.

The nature of the sport is constantly having to give excuses or try to find positives.

 

 

[Chappers]

58 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think they are DMs at all.  Both want to progress their positions relevant to the position of the ball in the pitch.  Nagy, when he was playing better, broke into the box.  Massengo was just growing confidence to be a bit more expansive, until our bad run.

Well Mr Google tells me that’s what they are, and that was how they were introduced when signed. 

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, Fuber said:

Summarises any risk of change of managerial change tho Dave. 

I think myself and a large portion of fans simply want the steaky runs to end and more consistent performances and tactics. 

Of course, and its a risk sticking too. I just keep thinking back to the days of a different manager every year! 

As for the steaky runs, personally, I've found the vegan pies to be the antidote,

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Chappers said:

Well Mr Google tells me that’s what they are, and that was how they were introduced when signed. 

Nagy - “midfielder”

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/nagy-completes-city-move/

Massengo - “young midfielder”

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/massengo-is-a-robin/

I blame football manager for introducing DMs, CAMs, into our language.

 

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

There will be some statto on here who'll be able to produce a list of all those powerhouse, mega-million spending sides who reached the Premier FOR THE FIRST TIME, overtaking us in the process, who likewise had less of a pot to pot in than us yet who managed to do what we've signally failed to do whilst squandering a fortune. To get those parachute payments one first has to get there and we never have.

Your analysis compares apples with pears. 49 clubs have reached the Premier, not us.

Now with 45 years ago is bound to be apples and pears isn't it? I'm just saying that we were a relative minnow then and we still are.

Of course We both want us to get there; I just feel that we are currently looking closer to achieving it than at any time in the past 40 of our 55 years! I can live with being patient another year or two! 

[steviestevieneville]

47 minutes ago, spudski said:

I agree...it has been poor, and I think we have made mistakes.

But then I sit back and ask why, and try to see the reasons and bigger picture.

It's like going over old ground. Each time we have a dip, it's the same arguement.

I've said before many times, our club set up and the way it recruits, it's development structure, pathways etc will always lead to set backs. Always 2 forward, 1 back.

Even without long term injuries and having a perfect injury free season, we'd still struggle to be a guaranteed top 6.

I really do think certain fans have an unrealistic expectation as to what the quality of our squad can give results wise.

I look at it and take into consideration the injuries, the same mistakes all teams make, the individual mistakes etc and I feel what we are seeing right now is a true reflection of our squad.

We've had exhausted inexperienced players playing and have now brought back Kalas, Smith, Nagy, DaSiva...all finding their feet again. Put the two together and you'll get the past few weeks imo. 

The Club could do better in many ways...but I'm just trying to not over react to certain situations...many brought about by our recruitment philosophy imo.

All valid points. Some fans will get taken in by the noise coming from the club though. You always want the club to show ambition so it’s a bit of a catch 22 .

When you hear LJ come out with statements like “we’re a big club now “ 

“we’re a premier league club in training” 

Some fans will start to expect,  and it heaps more pressure on LJ to deliver.

regarding recruitment . I totally understand the buy them young, coach them then make a profit. We need to do that to compete and fall in line with ffp

Wouldn't it  therefore make more sense, as I wrote in my earlier post about have a defined shape, style , a proper identity and buy the right players to fit that system I.E ,  Brentford.   Would that not help reduce the dips in form that seem to fall of the edge of a cliff? We’ve got all sorts of players that he seems to shoehorn into systems that doesn’t suit them . There seems to be no clear thinking. 

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Red Exile said:

I go to the theatre regularly and this season feels as though every week is a preview performance

Shouldn't that be Pantomime....

'Our Lee Babber and his 40 Thieving A Salaries.....'

[spudski]

12 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

All valid points. Some fans will get taken in by the noise coming from the club though. You always want the club to show ambition so it’s a bit of a catch 22 .

When you hear LJ come out with statements like “we’re a big club now “ 

“we’re a premier league club in training” 

Some fans will start to expect,  and it heaps more pressure on LJ to deliver.

regarding recruitment . I totally understand the buy them young, coach them then make a profit. We need to do that to compete and fall in line with ffp

Wouldn't it  therefore make more sense, as I wrote in my earlier post about have a defined shape, style , a proper identity and buy the right players to fit that system I.E ,  Brentford.   Would that not help reduce the dips in form that seem to fall of the edge of a cliff? We’ve got all sorts of players that he seems to shoehorn into systems that doesn’t suit them . There seems to be no clear thinking. 

I totally agree.

And I've written posts recently about our recruitment being disjointed.

They find talented young players that they hope they can develop into what we want, or sell them at a profit.

Imo, we are a team of talented individuals that don't work consistently as a team. Palmer, Eliasson and Famara all being the stand outs. All talented in their own way...but trying to get those three to work together as a winning combination is a struggle...like oil and water.

A lad on twitter put up a montage of Palmer's great movement into space from yesterday's game. He gets the ball...where does Famara move to? To exactly the one position that's hardest for Palmer to find him. Not into Space at an angle, but in direct line and behind an opponent. Total misunderstanding between the two. One doing it correctly...the other not having a clue about correct movement to receive.

It's this type of recruitment that will slow the progress down imo.

[chinapig]

19 minutes ago, spudski said:

I totally agree.

And I've written posts recently about our recruitment being disjointed.

They find talented young players that they hope they can develop into what we want, or sell them at a profit.

Imo, we are a team of talented individuals that don't work consistently as a team. Palmer, Eliasson and Famara all being the stand outs. All talented in their own way...but trying to get those three to work together as a winning combination is a struggle...like oil and water.

A lad on twitter put up a montage of Palmer's great movement into space from yesterday's game. He gets the ball...where does Famara move to? To exactly the one position that's hardest for Palmer to find him. Not into Space at an angle, but in direct line and behind an opponent. Total misunderstanding between the two. One doing it correctly...the other not having a clue about correct movement to receive.

It's this type of recruitment that will slow the progress down imo.

I'm with you on the recruitment angle. The primary aim of recruitment appears to be to sign players as individual assets whose value might appreciate over a period and deliver a profit.

On its own terms it has been a notable success but it is much more a financial strategy than a football one.

[glen humphries]

57 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Now with 45 years ago is bound to be apples and pears isn't it? I'm just saying that we were a relative minnow then and we still are.

Of course We both want us to get there; I just feel that we are currently looking closer to achieving it than at any time in the past 40 of our 55 years! I can live with being patient another year or two! 

Closer than when we got to the playoff final, that’s as close as you can get, with lj in charge it’ll be a lot longer than a year or two , lj has got this team in a complete mess, it’ll take a new manager a couple of years to sort lj squad out

[spudski]

1 minute ago, chinapig said:

I'm with you on the recruitment angle. The primary aim of recruitment appears to be to sign players as individual assets whose value might appreciate over a period and deliver a profit.

On its own terms it has been a notable success but it is much more a financial strategy than a football one.

Yes, that's how I see it too.

It's a gamble. 

We've got a CEO who has to make this Club financially self sustainable. And a Coach that has to find increasing success on the pitch every season.

Getting to two to gell must be a real struggle.

Until we get to a point where we don't have to sell, then it's always going to be a struggle.

Imagine if we had been able to recruit Kalas, DaSilva, Palmer, Nagy, Massengo and Afobe/Nketiah...and kept Webster, Reid, Bryan and Pack.

Having that would have meant we had the experience and ability needed to kick on in this division. Playing a type of football Ashton Gate loves. 

That's the point we need to get to as a Club to be top 6 imo.

Whether it becomes achievable is another thing.

The sale of Webster really put a fly in the ointment regarding how LJ wanted to play imo.

[glen humphries]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes, that's how I see it too.

It's a gamble. 

We've got a CEO who has to make this Club financially self sustainable. And a Coach that has to find increasing success on the pitch every season.

Getting to two to gell must be a real struggle.

Until we get to a point where we don't have to sell, then it's always going to be a struggle.

Imagine if we had been able to recruit Kalas, DaSilva, Palmer, Nagy, Massengo and Afobe/Nketiah...and kept Webster, Reid, Bryan and Pack.

Having that would have meant we had the experience and ability needed to kick on in this division. Playing a type of football Ashton Gate loves. 

That's the point we need to get to as a Club to be top 6 imo.

Whether it becomes achievable is another thing.

The sale of Webster really put a fly in the ointment regarding how LJ wanted to play imo.

Losing Webster was a big blow for us but that doesn’t excuse what’s been served up the last couple of seasons at home especially, we had Webster last season and we were still shit to watch 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, glen humphries said:

Losing Webster was a big blow for us but that doesn’t excuse what’s been served up the last couple of seasons at home especially, we had Webster last season and we were still shit to watch 

And so is pretty much the rest of the division bar Leeds and Brentford.

Think we got spoilt one season under LJ and that's the expected level. Unfortunately it wasn't sustainable to win consistently and push on.

There aren't many matches every week where Clubs fans say it's entertaining.

[Chappers]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Nagy - “midfielder”

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/nagy-completes-city-move/

Massengo - “young midfielder”

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/massengo-is-a-robin/

I blame football manager for introducing DMs, CAMs, into our language.

 

Ha, Mr Google and Wikipedia trump your link by calling Adam a defensive midfielder. Han in both a midfielder and a defensive midfielder on Wikipedia.

How about them both being right sided central midfielders who can also play on the left in an advanced defensive role, covering the back whilst getting forward.

Whatever their actual roles, both have been pretty ordinary in recent weeks, giving the ball away far too often and dispossessed far too easily on occasions.

[glen humphries]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

And so is pretty much the rest of the division bar Leeds and Brentford.

Think we got spoilt one season under LJ and that's the expected level. Unfortunately it wasn't sustainable to win consistently and push on.

There aren't many matches every week where Clubs fans say it's entertaining.

You’re defending the indefensible we’re that bad to watch and that’s down too lj , we have to be 1 of the most boring sides to watch in the league and I couldn’t care less about other sides I can see with my own eyes were absolutely dire 

[lenred]

21 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes, that's how I see it too.

It's a gamble. 

We've got a CEO who has to make this Club financially self sustainable. And a Coach that has to find increasing success on the pitch every season.

Getting to two to gell must be a real struggle.

Until we get to a point where we don't have to sell, then it's always going to be a struggle.

Imagine if we had been able to recruit Kalas, DaSilva, Palmer, Nagy, Massengo and Afobe/Nketiah...and kept Webster, Reid, Bryan and Pack.

Having that would have meant we had the experience and ability needed to kick on in this division. Playing a type of football Ashton Gate loves. 

That's the point we need to get to as a Club to be top 6 imo.

Whether it becomes achievable is another thing.

The sale of Webster really put a fly in the ointment regarding how LJ wanted to play imo.

All teams are ‘selling clubs’ though, bar the absolute cream of European football. It’s not an excuse that washes for a reason why we should struggle. We have this fabled infrastructure, or so we are told, to deal with it and push on but don’t seem to be able at the moment.  

[Cowshed]

26 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes, that's how I see it too.

It's a gamble. 

We've got a CEO who has to make this Club financially self sustainable. And a Coach that has to find increasing success on the pitch every season.

Getting to two to gell must be a real struggle.

Until we get to a point where we don't have to sell, then it's always going to be a struggle.

Imagine if we had been able to recruit Kalas, DaSilva, Palmer, Nagy, Massengo and Afobe/Nketiah...and kept Webster, Reid, Bryan and Pack.

Having that would have meant we had the experience and ability needed to kick on in this division. Playing a type of football Ashton Gate loves. 

That's the point we need to get to as a Club to be top 6 imo.

Whether it becomes achievable is another thing.

The sale of Webster really put a fly in the ointment regarding how LJ wanted to play imo.

If there is a plan governing all of this the sale of one individual would not have that impact. 

You have been critical in the extreme regarding the lack of obvious direction.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, lenred said:

All teams are ‘selling clubs’ though, bar the absolute cream of European football. It’s not an excuse that washes for a reason why we should struggle. We have this fabled infrastructure, or so we are told, to deal with it and push on but don’t seem to be able at the moment.  

Let's see what happens in the window, and where we finally end up.

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

If there is a plan governing all of this the sale of one individual would not have that impact. 

You have been critical in the extreme regarding the lack of obvious direction.

It does though...as LJ said himself he wanted to build the team around Webster.

Kalas also came here as Webster became a good partnership with him. It swayed him to sign. He's not been as good since.

DaSilva also played well off him.

With the Clubs pathway, it's obvious to see Moore is being developed to be like Webster. A ball playing CB.

All signings and sales and injuries have a knock on effect to other team members.

[shelts]

We’ve lost our way . Our chairman has let his little mate loose with the cheque book in the summer and LJ has really enjoyed spending Steve’s money but in all that he forgot how all the pieces of the jigsaw would come together . He won’t be sacked any time soon with us still in touch of the playoffs 

[lenred]

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

Let's see what happens in the window, and where we finally end up.

It does though...as LJ said himself he wanted to build the team around Webster.

Kalas also came here as Webster became a good partnership with him. It swayed him to sign. He's not been as good since.

DaSilva also played well off him.

With the Clubs pathway, it's obvious to see Moore is being developed to be like Webster. A ball playing CB.

All signings and sales and injuries have a knock on effect to other team members.

With due respect are you saying that the club thought Webster was staying 100%?  I’d be shocked and not a little worried if they didn’t realise after his performances last year that we were going to struggle to keep him. 

[Cowshed]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

Let's see what happens in the window, and where we finally end up.

It does though...as LJ said himself he wanted to build the team around Webster.

Kalas also came here as Webster became a good partnership with him. It swayed him to sign. He's not been as good since.

DaSilva also played well off him.

With the Clubs pathway, it's obvious to see Moore is being developed to be like Webster. A ball playing CB.

All signings and sales and injuries have a knock on effect to other team members.

There should always be another good player in the building. One players sale injury or loss of form should not mean the collapse of a teams football - Its identity. 

There is no plan. There is no model driving this. As you have pointed out yourself.

It is bullshit. 

[glen humphries]

2 minutes ago, lenred said:

With due respect are you saying that the club thought Webster was staying 100%?  I’d be shocked and not a little worried if they didn’t realise after his performances last year that we were going to struggle to keep him. 

Spot on it was pretty obvious there was a big chance of Webster going.