Sad and embarrassed

[reddoh]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

How many Webster's do you know just sitting around kicking their heels and not under contract? It's not as simple as going shopping in the Supermarket. The system in place has a time frame...it will take more years to come to fruition imo.

Morrell, Bakinson, Vyner, Semenyo, Walsh, Moore, Massengo etc etc...all players that are on the pathway.

He just doesn't suit our playing style.

I feel for him in many ways. Big heart, trys his best, but his best isn't what we need. Imo his inclusion started to downhill spiral in what we were trying to achieve on the pitch. He was brought in to add physicality. Then they tried to develop him into the type of player he naturally isn't.

spot on.

[Maesknoll Red]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

And so is pretty much the rest of the division bar Leeds and Brentford.

Think we got spoilt one season under LJ and that's the expected level. Unfortunately it wasn't sustainable to win consistently and push on.

There aren't many matches every week where Clubs fans say it's entertaining.

If your last sentence has any level of accuracy, then football at this level is in the shit.  You can see the level of dissatisfaction on here, not many fellow City fans where I work, but one season ticket holder (in his 20’s) is missing games because the football (entertainment?) on show is poor, lacking excitement, disjointed, boring, turgid, dull and any other adjective that you can pick from here or discussions with fans face to face.

Many of those critical do acknowledge LJ’s work to get us here, it does seem that more and more are looking at the last season and a half and wondering, with good cause, if LJ’s tenure has reached its natural end, that he has got to a point where turning this around is only going to be done by a change of Manager.

Promotion would be nice, I doubt many would disagree, their might be some who see it as essential, but I gauge the mood to be more one of just wanting to enjoy going to the Gate, for the football again and any playoff or promotion as a bonus.  How we’d love to see something reminiscent of Tinnion supplying Murray and getting bums off seats in anticipation.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

If your last sentence has any level of accuracy, then football at this level is in the shit.  You can see the level of dissatisfaction on here, not many fellow City fans where I work, but one season ticket holder (in his 20’s) is missing games because the football (entertainment?) on show is poor, lacking excitement, disjointed, boring, turgid, dull and any other adjective that you can pick from here or discussions with fans face to face.

Many of those critical do acknowledge LJ’s work to get us here, it does seem that more and more are looking at the last season and a half and wondering, with good cause, if LJ’s tenure has reached its natural end, that he has got to a point where turning this around is only going to be done by a change of Manager.

Promotion would be nice, I doubt many would disagree, their might be some who see it as essential, but I gauge the mood to be more one of just wanting to enjoy going to the Gate, for the football again and any playoff or promotion as a bonus.  How we’d love to see something reminiscent of Tinnion supplying Murray and getting bums off seats in anticipation.

Not saying this is correct, but you could argue that our recent managers all started part of the journey, but got sacked once SL reached the right conclusion they’d run their course.

• McIness - that you cant recruit older players on big wages on long contracts 
• SOD - you have to have the basics in place and a strategy, but you have to live in the now also
• Cotts - certain managers will be needed for a short-term jolt, but for that purpose only
• Johnson - will bring stability and create saleable assets, but might not take the team where you want to get to

Of course, I could be spouting a load of tripe that has had no bearing whatsoever.

On this basis, we need a Champ-Cotts (Warnock-type) followed by a Prem-Johnson (tbc).

[Maesknoll Red]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Not saying this is correct, but you could argue that our recent managers all started part of the journey, but got sacked once SL reached the right conclusion they’d run their course.

• McIness - that you cant recruit older players on big wages on long contracts 
• SOD - you have to have the basics in place and a strategy, but you have to live in the now also
• Cotts - certain managers will be needed for a short-term jolt, but for that purpose only
• Johnson - will bring stability and create saleable assets, but might not take the team where you want to get to

Of course, I could be spouting a load of tripe that has had no bearing whatsoever.

On this basis, we need a Champ-Cotts (Warnock-type) followed by a Prem-Johnson (tbc).

I’d be happy to see Warnock (or similar) come in between now and end of season, whilst a longer term Manger was put in place - he’d have no responsibility apart from winning matches, I wouldn’t want or expect longer than that.  
 

It’s already been well covered, but the difficulty is getting someone in who will agree to manage under ‘the system’.  Maybe if we want success (promotion) the system will have to change.  
 

Maybe LJ could turn it around, but I fear not now, just from rumblings I hear, a start would be to set up to be a bit more adventurous, too many managers seem content to settle for a draw, when with 3 points for a win, wins and losses can yield more points than draws.  

 

[Banjo Island]

35 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

If your last sentence has any level of accuracy, then football at this level is in the shit.  You can see the level of dissatisfaction on here, not many fellow City fans where I work, but one season ticket holder (in his 20’s) is missing games because the football (entertainment?) on show is poor, lacking excitement, disjointed, boring, turgid, dull and any other adjective that you can pick from here or discussions with fans face to face.

Many of those critical do acknowledge LJ’s work to get us here, it does seem that more and more are looking at the last season and a half and wondering, with good cause, if LJ’s tenure has reached its natural end, that he has got to a point where turning this around is only going to be done by a change of Manager.

Promotion would be nice, I doubt many would disagree, their might be some who see it as essential, but I gauge the mood to be more one of just wanting to enjoy going to the Gate, for the football again and any playoff or promotion as a bonus.  How we’d love to see something reminiscent of Tinnion supplying Murray and getting bums off seats in anticipation.

Yes maesknoll totally this tinmann majesticaly sweeping the ball out to murray the dolman rising as one seconds later the ball nestling in the back of the net pure ectasy ohhhh yessss

[cidered abroad]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Liverpool obviously play 433 (or very close variant) throughout the club. I suspect players know exactly what to do in a given position.  I suspect some of them are good enough and intelligent enough to play more than one position, and know exactly what  is expected in that position.

Watching their young team today v Everton, it was like watching the regular first team. The bodies on the pitch were different but the style and formation was the same.

[pillred]

54 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Watching their young team today v Everton, it was like watching the regular first team. The bodies on the pitch were different but the style and formation was the same.

You're right they could almost have worn the shirts of the players they had replaced and not a lot of people would have probably noticed.

[Superjack]

15 hours ago, spudski said:

I get fans frustrations and it's even worse when we lose or play unentertaining football.

However...it happens at pretty much every Club.

The biggest problem we have as Club and Fan base, is having the monicur of 'Biggest Club' not to have played in the Prem.

Every season goes by, and you can feel the pressure building.

Even more so in recent years, as we have progressed fast on and off the pitch.

It intensifies even more when the Club state they are aiming for promotion.

And this imo, is why fans get so angry and frustrated. The constant carrot being dangled.

It's a ridiculous scenario. Anyone in their right mind can see we aren't promotion contender's.

What if we did make the play offs..then what? It's a total lottery...it means nothing to make that. More odds against losing and putting the Club backwards.

As a Club it really needs to keep consolidating and getting to a point of strength to go up eventually as top 2.

Fans scream...' why can't we do a Huddersfield'?...well now look at them.

The Prem is not the be all and end all of football.

Forget the Prem...enjoy little ol Bristol City being a half decent Championship side. We are punching above our 'natural' position.

We still are little ol Bristol City...the whole football world still see's us as that...and we are.

For want of an example...as a business scenario...the Established Directors are looking down at us, and can see some raw talent. Over the past few years, we've gone from being the best office junior, been given a company car and promotion, got into middle management and are still learning on the job. Making some outstanding contributions that are taken note of, then making some right howlers.

The Directors can see you aren't ready yet to make it a Director. We still need to learn from making mistakes and improving as we go. The Bright raw office junior, is learning that further up the business you get, the harder it becomes, and years of experience is needed to fully succeed.

So that's your analogy of City.

What is your analogy of Johnson?

[Superjack]

13 hours ago, italian dave said:

And would you be excited when McAllister is appointed in his place? If not, who do you suggest? And maybe you could get over to the 'next manager' thread and tell us. Because that's an interesting thread. Interesting for the lack of contributions from many of the LJ out contributor. And interesting because the truth is that, aside from a few totally unrealistic suggestions (like we're going to,poach the Liverpool assistant), the conclusion is that there are few options and most of those that there are you may we'll consider un exciting. And McAllister is the most likely.

What makes me sad and embarrassed is the utter negativity and pointlessness of so many threads on here. It's just, here's a problem, let's find a scapegoat, let's all shout as loudly as we can LJ out, let's throw in a bit of abuse now and then, let's find a bunch of stories and half truths to support that demonisation,  let's not bother to think about what happens next, or about what a proper long term solution might actually look like.

Really, that 'new manager' thread is enlightening. And I'd favour a temporary ban on any OTIB posts that say LJ out without the poster first contributing their suggestion on that thread.

To be fair I would actually rather McAllister now. Of course, he has nothing on his CV to merit the job, but neither did Johnson. 

And he couldn't possibly be any more negative.

[Superjack]

13 hours ago, Robbored said:

Well said.........I well remember those days with gates at AG of 5k...........
It makes me smile when posters complain about how things are these days...........

Attention Forum... the 'sage' has spoken!

We are not allowed to wish for things to be great, because things were dire once.

Now let's all please wind our necks in.

[spudski]

6 hours ago, Superjack said:

So that's your analogy of City.

What is your analogy of Johnson?

Hardworking and passionate. Fits the position set by the Club. And like all Coaches and managers, makes mistakes.

 

[spudski]

13 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

So supporters like me are "entitled moaning old gits"! Sarcastic xxxxxxx!

You can come across as a know it all who is the only one writing the truth!

In SEVENTY years supporting City we have won two league titles. We have been out of the top tier for forty years, while everyone else of any size has been there.

We finally get a financial benefactor, a new stadium, some of the best footballers to have pulled on the red shirt. But we are still little Bristol City who bounce between leagues two and three! 

Why? Because we are not prepared to employ coaching staff with some positive experience of getting to the top tier and then a reasonable shout at staying there for a while.

You can be happy with what we are but I and many more are NOT. 

And you've unwittingly just proved my point.

I try to be reasonable and see the bigger picture. Again it doesn't suit your timeline because you've followed for 70 years. Just because we are a big City..it doesn't make us entitled to be Prem. 

Thanks for the name calling.

 

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

I've kept out of this as you are basically saying exactly how I feel.  Changing manager isn't always the answer, but anyway, people seen to be ignoring the fact of our current league position.  I totally get that we've had a dodgy few weeks, but as far as I'm concerned thats all its been.  Lets get through this window, and see what happens.  SL will evaluate things at the end of the season, and if we are 7th or lower, SL himself has said we need to progress.  

 

Just hold on for 5 months, but in the meantime, support, support, support.  I really can't compute why this forum is so negative given any opportunity. Doesn't it exhaust you? 

Agree with much of this. We are on a bad run having had a good run (results wise). We are lower than where we want to / should be, but it’s only 3 points behind 6th.

At this stage of the season, 20 games to go, middle of a window, unfortunately we do need to be patient.

Johnson ain’t perfect, he ain’t shit either. The onus is however on him to reverse this run and move us back in the right direction.

Probably his toughest test in his 4 years here. Some big decisions to make. 

[Trueredsupporter]

Lee Johnson when you look at what he said he would do isn't a success. fans being unhappy with his boring football isn't a success for them either.

[spudski]

29 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

I think the reason I'm probably being more patient, and defending LJ is I've seen us go through that cycle of hiring and firing.  The grass isn't always greener.  

I think you just have to look at our current manager record to see, that changing managers does work out for us.... 

 

 John Ward - 1997–1998  - Ok, failed in the championship

 Benny Lennartsson - 1998–1999 - FAILED

 Tony Pulis -1999 - ENOUGH SAID ABOUT THIS THE BETTER

 Tony Fawthrop - 2000 - FAILED

 Danny Wilson - 2000–2004 - NICE FOOTBALL BUT FAILED

 Brian Tinnion - 2004–2005 - FAILED

 Gary Johnson - 2005–2010 - SUCCESS

 Steve Coppell - 2010 - FAILED

 Keith Millen - 2010–2011 - FAILED

 Derek McInnes - 2011–2013 - FAILED

 Sean O'Driscoll - 2013 - FAILED

 Steve Cotterill - 2013–2016 - SUCCESSFUL - BUT ULTIMATELY FAILED AT THE LEVEL ABOVE (CHAMPIONSHIP)

 Lee Johnson - 2016–present - SUCCESSFUL 

All I'm saying is, lets  hold back and wait until it actually gets bad, before we run the risk of running through a mass of bad managers.  Johnson can do it, we've seen it.  He isn't perfect, but he can do it.  Lets support the manager through the bad times, as he has ultimately given us a lot of good times. More good times that the rest of that list (I don't really class winning the paint pot trophy a success btw, as if thats your yardstick, then you can't have a crack at LJ). 

 

 

I think SL has been burnt with managers in the past. He's learnt a lesson.

He's found a Coach and CEO and coaching team that are all willing to work within his directive.

I can't remember a time following this Club, where everyone behind the scenes is working so hard as one to achieve success. And they really do have to work to a philosophy. And that is restrictive. The structure of how we recruit and the pathway for homegrown players is a slow burner...it won't be instant success. We have to break that philosophy occasionally to compete...Kalas, Williams as examples...however, for any manager or coach coming in, they will have to agree to those terms, or your out.

And because of that Philosophy you really do need someone who will buy into it.

I think many forget how much we've changed.

We won't be going out and buying players that are already at their highest value, both playing wise and value wise. Occasionally...but not as a rule. And that will put some managers off.

[Sturny]

1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

I've kept out of this as you are basically saying exactly how I feel.  Changing manager isn't always the answer, but anyway, people seen to be ignoring the fact of our current league position.  I totally get that we've had a dodgy few weeks, but as far as I'm concerned thats all its been.  Lets get through this window, and see what happens.  SL will evaluate things at the end of the season, and if we are 7th or lower, SL himself has said we need to progress.  

 

Just hold on for 5 months, but in the meantime, support, support, support.  I really can't compute why this forum is so negative given any opportunity. Doesn't it exhaust you? 

I just wanna see City roll the dice with a new manager, it'll be exciting. I'm impatient for sure. 

I don't believe LJ is the best manager we could possibly get, he's alright though. 

 

[Trueredsupporter]

Lee Johnson said he needed three windows to get his team in place .he has had eight and this boring team is his.

Lee Johnson talks about identity. fans cant work out what he is doing. Can you badger describe what BCFCs identity is? this should be simple if all Lee Johnsons talk is not simply hot air.

Afobe was a loan. millions spent and sixty players in and you are using a loan as an excuse!!

You will keep going on about your success and City are just off the plays offs but as the opening poster asks how many are really enjoying our football? Its not been dull for weeks but seasons. Is that success?

[Clutton Caveman]

Does anyone not think that Chris Houghton would not get more out of our squad than LJ

And does anyone not think that we would attract better players under this manager

[JBFC II]

2 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

Does anyone not think that Chris Houghton would not get more out of our squad than LJ

And does anyone not think that we would attract better players under this manager

Maybe we would, much like we would probably do better under Klopp or Guardiola. 
 

The issue being, like the two I mentioned there is no chance of Hughton coming here...

[Clutton Caveman]

Does anyone not think that Chris Houghton would not get more out of our squad than LJ

And does anyone not think that we would attract better players under this manager

[Clutton Caveman]

I think he would come

He has no chance of a Prem job

He is a specialist in Championship promotion

We have one of the best set ups in Championship

He has never been a big spender

[Maesknoll Red]

2 hours ago, Badger08 said:

I think the reason I'm probably being more patient, and defending LJ is I've seen us go through that cycle of hiring and firing.  The grass isn't always greener.  

I think you just have to look at our current manager record to see, that changing managers does work out for us.... 

 

 John Ward - 1997–1998  - Ok, failed in the championship

 Benny Lennartsson - 1998–1999 - FAILED

 Tony Pulis -1999 - ENOUGH SAID ABOUT THIS THE BETTER

 Tony Fawthrop - 2000 - FAILED

 Danny Wilson - 2000–2004 - NICE FOOTBALL BUT FAILED

 Brian Tinnion - 2004–2005 - FAILED

 Gary Johnson - 2005–2010 - SUCCESS

 Steve Coppell - 2010 - FAILED

 Keith Millen - 2010–2011 - FAILED

 Derek McInnes - 2011–2013 - FAILED

 Sean O'Driscoll - 2013 - FAILED

 Steve Cotterill - 2013–2016 - SUCCESSFUL - BUT ULTIMATELY FAILED AT THE LEVEL ABOVE (CHAMPIONSHIP)

 Lee Johnson - 2016–present - SUCCESSFUL 

All I'm saying is, lets  hold back and wait until it actually gets bad, before we run the risk of running through a mass of bad managers.  Johnson can do it, we've seen it.  He isn't perfect, but he can do it.  Lets support the manager through the bad times, as he has ultimately given us a lot of good times. More good times that the rest of that list (I don't really class winning the paint pot trophy a success btw, as if thats your yardstick, then you can't have a crack at LJ). 

 

 

The last two, Cotterill, was he a failure at this level or just not given the time?  What are you judging LJ’s success by?  He has had a huge player churn, he presides over the worst football on show at the Gate for quite some time.  If that’s success, you can keep it.   

The biggest gripe I hear, online, in the pub, at work, etc. is the performance, a moan about the league position is a lot rarer than the complaints of boring football.  How long is that sustainable, people are already voting with their feet, like it or not, professional football is not just a competition to win leagues and cups, it’s entertainment and the games I have seen this season (and last) are sadly lacking in that.

[JBFC II]

6 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think he would come

He has no chance of a Prem job

He is a specialist in Championship promotion

We have one of the best set ups in Championship

He has never been a big spender

Apparently he turned down the Watford job as he was looking for something better. Let’s be honest there’ll be a good few championship clubs ahead of us on his radar

[Sturny]

11 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

So you're basically saying you want a gamble with the football club on the off chance that it MIGHT work? 

Well I don't want us to bring in any odd sausage. But we can choose/help our luck. 

We're in a far far more attractive position than when we were when we brought LJ in. Don't you think?

Also I know you may add that's solely because of LJ, I believe it's because of LJ but mostly £££ 

[Trueredsupporter]

Can you badger describe what BCFCs identity is?

do you agree with posters Lee Johnsons football boring them is not a success?

[RedRaw]

20 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

So you're basically saying you want a gamble with the football club on the off chance that it MIGHT work? 

Isn't that the same for every club that changes their manager/coach?

And its not gambling with the football club, its purely changing the coach........SL will no doubt continue with the way the club is set-up

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Badger08 said:

Bristol City is a football club that buys players and sells them for a profit. Buy low and sell high, whilst reaping the benefit inbetween. We want to be self sufficient and not risk putting the club in danger, as we can't afford to spend outside of our means.  

We are a club that's identity is to play quality football, within the spending power that we have. Unless you can buy proven quality, then you have to take gambles.  Thats the way football works.  Thats why we will win some, and lose some.  But by god, we are winning more than we are losing at the moment.  You can see that through final league placings, higher up the league table than we have in YEARS.  We are a team that's competing with with bigger clubs, higher wages and parachute payments.  We are completing with clubs that have bigger histories, better geographically placed and more attractive. We are a club that are trying to do things the right way, without putting its very existence in danger. 

We are a club that has raised its profile within the game, and are looking to increase this through its off field activities in Stadium, training ground, womens football and Bristol Sport as a whole. 

We've done all of this during the LJ rein.  We as supporters need to realise that LJ has been at the heart of all of this.  He is the one who has set the bar of this football club, but without him, we wouldn't be able to set the bar as high as it is.  He's the person who has set the bar so high, that its acceptable to call for a managers head when only 3 points out from the playoff, halfway through a season.  Just think about that!!!   

Identity isn't always about what happens on the pitch, but its about also about what happens off of it.  We are the most stable we've been in years.  We've bought players that have genuine resell value.  We've sold players at a HUGE profit and we've got a reputation for doing things the right way.  LJ is a key part to all of this.  What other managers have even come close to this? 

And lets not shirk away from our responsibilities.  LJ isn't solely responsible for the identity of the club, we are as supporters, and at the moment our identity is a bunch of spoilt brats because we've lost a few games. 
I'm not stupid enough to think everything is rosey, but its a million miles away from the identity that SOD gave us. Or Pullis. Or Tinnion. Or Cotterill.  

The identity we have now is just fine, an identity that spreads across a stable football club and most of all an identity that competes. WE ARE COMPETING IN ONE OF EUROPE'S HARDEST LEAGUES. That's an identity that I like.  How many seasons can we say that we've competed in the championship? And our supporters want to risk all of it because we've lost a few games.  

Could you define what quality football is?

And could you identify how Mr Johnson is attempting to achieve this? 

You maybe cannot describe what quality is because it is our own perception. However given Mr Johnsons and Mr Ashton rhetoric regarding identity and the meticulous process of recruiting players with the right dna there must be a big plan driving this. It should be therefore easy for fans to describe what Bristol City playing identity is because that is what Mr Johnson consistently refers to.  

What many posters are consistently pointing out is not the result of a few games but a consequence of Mr Johnsons own words and their expectations. 

 

 

[RedRaw]

4 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Is that what Everton fans thought when sacking Big Sam?  Newcastle when sacking Pardew.  Stoke, whilst sacking Pulis.  You can go on and on.  

Newcastle and Stoke were/are basket case clubs and in Stokes case, on a downward spiral and mismanaged.

For every bad example there are good examples of clubs who have improved under new managers/coach. (I'm not going to list them as you will know that this is the case)

Unfortunately, this apathetic and unambitious attitude will mean we are unlikely to progress any time soon.

We have gone through this process before with LJ and he survived but here we are 3 years later with a bloated, expensive squad, no "identity" other than ineffective boring football,  no clear style of play or formation, no idea of best 11, chopping and changing tactics and players every week.....I could go on and on but hey, lets just persevere, chuck money at him and in blind faith hope it turns around.

 

[Natchfever]

28 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Is that what Everton fans thought when sacking Big Sam?  Newcastle when sacking Pardew.  Stoke, whilst sacking Pulis.  You can go on and on.  

You know full well that you can present a compelling case to support the opposite position.

Club sells four players who were here before LJ showed up and sold one (Webster) he brought in relatively cheap and sold for a profit, although as @Davefevs brilliantly yet neutrally pointed out over the weekend, we haven't exactly made a killing on that one.

Counter that with all the lemons, or those "for the future" who will never generate any profit on investment (which includes wages)and those sold for "undisclosed fees" which I suggest means at a loss, and LJ's (or some claim MA's) performance is piss poor.

Add to that the terrible football served up from whatever combo the lottery machine churns out for the match in question and personally I would like a change.

It won't happen, but if it does, it will be an internal appointment most likely, so "we go again"........

[Cowshed]

25 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Yes, I can. 

Quality is, according to the English dictionary  "the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind".  So, a similar kind.  By that I'm going against teams in our league as they are, by right, a similar kind of standard.  This leads me to the league table, a barometer of quality.  We are 7th out of 24 teams.  Seems like we have quality of football to me if winning is what matters, and I believe it is.   

e? 

Yes a perception of standard. A widely held perception of Bristol City's football is that it is boring. The opening poster uses the standard of football in 2017 (?) against the standard of football to now.

You have completely avoided the point of what success can be to fans. You appear to want victory. It appears you have no qualms about what it looks like. Other fans may want artistry, team work, skill, drama etc .. Entertainment is success.